You can't have it both ways.

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The rejection of tradition comes from the fact that the most commonly used Protestant Bible, the NIV, is a faulty translation with an inherent bias against tradition.
:confused:

Tradition was rejected LONG before the NIV was ever penned.

Perhaps the NIV translation has contributed, but I’d question that it is the inciting cause.
It was also to anoint Him as King. By denying this critical aspect of the Baptism you are all but rejecting the Kingship of Jesus. If he was not anointed, why was he referred to as the Christ? Also, immediately after his Baptism, Jesus is referred to as the Son by the Father, again implying His kingly role. Why is this such a sticking point or you?
I think the notion of annointing is not as clear as you’re making it seem, STTM. I don’t disagree with that interpretation, but it is a more subtle point, methinks.
 
I hear you. I agree. It’s bait. It’s happening a lot of late. Some want intelligent conversations. Some just want an opportunity to jump on something and the chance to scream as loudly as possible that one is wrong. I feel sorry for those people. I don’t demand, or even expect, to agree with many here. But, I do hope to understand the origins of their thoughts and opinions in order to have a greater comprehension. Those that can’t, or won’t, do the same merely limit their scope of knowledge in a world that demands greater and deeper awareness in order to survive, let alone thrive. —*just my $.02
 
UniversalistGuy;7014080:
Thank you much for answering. So let me ask this. What methodology did you use to reject 10% as error? Was it Prima Scriptura thinking or something else? In other words couldn’t the Catholic Church be 100% right and your understanding of God and what He expects be not quite right? Is that possible?
Yes, I base it on Prima Scriptura thinking. Of course it’s possible the CC is 100% right and I’m wrong – I make no claims to infallibility. But from where I sit, the CC doesn’t seem very infallible either. I’ve been reading their history (according to Garry Wills – a liberalish Catholic), and it’s pretty messed up.
Thanks for answering in such a civil manner. Appreciate it. 👍
 
I apologize Jimmy.
Thank you and I apologize if this seems like an attempt to bait here… guilty as charged, I tend to do that from time to time but it’s really more of an attempt to start a discussion.

I really don’t understand the logic behind Sola Scriptura and I also know that Sola Scriptura has a different meaning to different people and I can’t understand why that is, either.

In my next several posts here, I will try to lay out the argument against Sola Scriptura, and support that argument, biblically.

I would like to see the Protestant response. I would also like to know the full story behind, how this belief originated.

Thanks again.
 
I would like to see the Protestant response. I would also like to know the full story behind, how this belief originated.
I thought it originated because the Catholic Church invented indulgences to get money to rebuild that cathedral in Rome and when the educated Catholics compared what the establishment was doing with the Bible and showed that the Catholic Church was teaching things that were wrong according to the Bible, like indulgences, the Catholic Church got mad and anathemized everybody. They just threw them out. And the people they threw out are still Christians but they go with what they think the Bible says and not with what the Catholic Church says. Am I wrong? 🤷
 
"Scripture and Tradition"
Article here at Catholic Answers

SCRIPTURE ALONE (“SOLA SCRIPTURA”)
Here at Scripture Catholic

The scriptures below, are scriptures I use to discuss Bible alone vs. Bible plus tradition.
Here at CAF Group “Catholic Verses” (Page 4) by Prodigal Son1

**Bible verse evidence against “Sola scriptura” **

1Corinthians 11:2
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
Philippians 4:9
Keep on doing what you have learned and received and **heard **and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you
Colossians 4:16
And when this letter is read before you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and you yourselves read the one from Laodicea
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.
1Corinthians 12:3,4
You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 2:15,16
who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us; they do not please God, and are opposed to everyone, trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
We **instruct **you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us
John 4:1
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had **heard **that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

Continued on my next post -
 
Continued from my last post -

John 5:31-33
"If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot be verified. But there is another who testifies on my behalf, and I know that the testimony he gives on my behalf is true. You sent emissaries to John, and he testified to the truth.
John 20:30
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. **
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Luke1:1-4
Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.
2Timothy 1:13
Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
2Timothy 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
2 Timothy 3:14,15
I am writing you about these matters
, although I hope to visit you soon**. But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
James 4:5
Or do you suppose that the scripture speaks without meaning when it says, “The spirit that he has made to dwell in us tends toward jealousy”
2 Peter 1:20Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
2 Peter 3:15,16
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters
. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Continued on my next post -
 
Continued from my last post -

1Peter 1:25

but the word of the Lord remains forever." This is the word that has been proclaimed to you.
Romans 10:17
Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
1Corinthians 15:1,2
Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you **hold fast **to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Mark 16:15
**And **He said to them, “Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
Matthew 23:1
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they **tell **you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
Matthew 28:19,20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Acts 8:30,31
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
Hebrews 5:12
Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food.
Acts 15:3,4
They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them.
Act 20:35
In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

-End, Your thoughts?
 
I’m getting more annoyed by the growing number of threads that are simply baited questions, where a person asks, “Why do y’all believe this?”, and when they get a decent response only respond with what amounts to, “HA! Idiot.” I’m also annoyed when every thread with a potential for good discussion veers off topic when people from both sides come in and post cookie-cutter arguments that have been responded to a thousand times.
I hear you…I hear you. I guess these type of discussions are wearing me out…:coolinoff:
 
I thought it originated because the Catholic Church invented indulgences to get money to rebuild that cathedral in Rome and when the educated Catholics compared what the establishment was doing with the Bible and showed that the Catholic Church was teaching things that were wrong according to the Bible, like indulgences, the Catholic Church got mad and anathemized everybody. They just threw them out. And the people they threw out are still Christians but they go with what they think the Bible says and not with what the Catholic Church says. Am I wrong? 🤷
Where is Luther’s 95 Theses located in the Bible? For that matter, where are any of the writings of Martin Luther, which have influence so many Protestant beliefs, included in the Bible? Wouldn’t those writings be extra-biblical? The fact that you’re going to a source found outside of the Bible, proves my point, does it not? 👍
 
I am not sure why some of these passages are picked and specific words highlighted. Some of them speak direct to tradition and I think are applicable to the discussion.
Other are not clear to me.
For example, the word heard and proclaim are highlighted often. What do you believe we believe about hearing and proclaiming?
Thank you
 
UniversalistGuy;7016182:
I thought it originated because the Catholic Church invented indulgences to get money to rebuild that cathedral in Rome and when the educated Catholics compared what the establishment was doing with the Bible and showed that the Catholic Church was teaching things that were wrong according to the Bible, like indulgences, the Catholic Church got mad and anathemized everybody. They just threw them out. And the people they threw out are still Christians but they go with what they think the Bible says and not with what the Catholic Church says. Am I wrong? 🤷
Where is Luther’s 95 Theses located in the Bible?
They aren’t in the Bible.
For that matter, where are any of the writings of Martin Luther, which have influence so many Protestant beliefs, included in the Bible?
They aren’t in the Bible, either.
Wouldn’t those writings be extra-biblical?
Yes.
The fact that you’re going to a source found outside of the Bible, proves my point, does it not? 👍
I must be missing what your point is. There are probably thousands of books written by Catholics. I could say to you hey where are those books found in the Bible? And when you say they’re not (as you would cos they actually ain’t in the Bible but it is in the Bible that you ought to tell the truth) I say so that cancels your point? How would that help?
 
…I must be missing what your point is. There are probably thousands of books written by Catholics. I could say to you hey where are those books found in the Bible? And when you say they’re not (as you would cos they actually ain’t in the Bible but it is in the Bible that you ought to tell the truth) I say so that cancels your point? How would that help?
Hello again UniversalistGuy,

That’s ok, because we as Catholics believe in Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition and the Holy Church. Therefore, we are allowed to go to other sources that strengthen our Catholic faith and increase our knowledge about Catholicism, so that we can understand and defend our own Catholic faith.

We are not the ones who hold to the errant belief in Sola scriptura and are not bound by Protestant law. So, a Protestant rule, like Sola scriptura, cannot not be use against a Catholic. That wouldn’t make any sense.

My point is that there are Protestants here, who claim to believe in Sola scriptura and complain when Catholics use sources outside the Bible, like the Catechism and extra-biblical documents from Catholic Popes and Church Fathers and so on, but then they will refer to documents written by Martin Luther and others, which is also extra-biblical. Catholics don’t go by Protestant rules but Protestants should obey their own rules… right?

If I believed in Sola scriptura, which I don’t, I would use Bible verses only, here at CAF to support any Protestant arguments.

As it is, even as a Catholic I try to prove most of my points here using Bible verses, as you can tell from my previous posts on this thread, even though as a Catholic, I am not restricted to the Bible.

Finally, I enjoy using the Bible to support and defend Catholicism, because the Bible is a Catholic book and everything in it, in one way or another, supports Catholicism, if read and understood in context.

I hope this helps, thank you for your post.

Your thoughts?
 
I am not sure why some of these passages are picked and specific words highlighted. Some of them speak direct to tradition and I think are applicable to the discussion.
Other are not clear to me.
For example, the word heard and proclaim are highlighted often. What do you believe we believe about hearing and proclaiming?
Thank you
Hello Rightlydivide,

Thanks for adding me to your friend list.

If you post the verse(s) that you want me to provide an explanation for, I will more than happy do so. I didn’t have enough room in my last posts to provide and explanation with each verse but I did provide links to articles that do provide explanations. …
 
Hello again UniversalistGuy,

That’s ok, because we as Catholics believe in Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition and the Holy Church. Therefore, we are allowed to go to other sources that strengthen our Catholic faith and increase our knowledge about Catholicism, so that we can understand and defend our own Catholic faith.

We are not the ones who hold to the errant belief in Sola scriptura and are not bound by Protestant law. So, a Protestant rule, like Sola scriptura, cannot not be use against a Catholic. That wouldn’t make any sense.

My point is that there are Protestants here, who claim to believe in Sola scriptura and complain when Catholics use sources outside the Bible, like the Catechism and extra-biblical documents from Catholic Popes and Church Fathers and so on, but then they will refer to documents written by Martin Luther and others, which is also extra-biblical. Catholics don’t go by Protestant rules but Protestants should obey their own rules… right?

If I believed in Sola scriptura, which I don’t, I would use Bible verses only, here at CAF to support any Protestant arguments.

As it is, even as a Catholic I try to prove most of my points here using Bible verses, as you can tell from my previous posts on this thread, even though as a Catholic, I am not restricted to the Bible.

Finally, I enjoy using the Bible to support and defend Catholicism, because the Bible is a Catholic book and everything in it, in one way or another, supports Catholicism, if read and understood in context.

I hope this helps, thank you for your post.

Your thoughts?
The problem with many SS advocates is that they merely slice and dice scripture (i.e., 2 Tim 3:16-18) to prove a point. One has to use the entire context of scripture,not just selected verses and build an entire doctrine off it. Nonetheless, SS will claim Catholics do the same (i.e., Matt 16:18) to prove the papacy? Ah no! Because the CC uses not only that passage but Peter’s entire ministry throughout the NT to support his position and leadership in the early community of believers.
 
The problem with many SS advocates is that they merely slice and dice scripture (i.e., 2 Tim 3:16-18) to prove a point. One has to use the entire context of scripture,not just selected verses and build an entire doctrine off it. Nonetheless, SS will claim Catholics do the same (i.e., Matt 16:18) to prove the papacy? Ah no! Because the CC uses not only that passage but Peter’s entire ministry throughout the NT to support his position and leadership in the early community of believers.
2 Timothy 3:16-18

3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
II*. “All Scripture is Inspired”- 2 Tim. 3:16-17 *(Scripture Catholic)
2 Tim. 3:14 - Protestants usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God’s word. But examining these texts disproves their claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before the Protestants’ often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.
*2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul’s teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament. *
*2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is “profitable” for every good work, but not exclusive. The word “profitable” is “ophelimos” in Greek. “Ophelimos” only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. Protestants unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive. *
*2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of “pasa graphe” would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use “sola Matthew,” or “sola Mark,” but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God’s word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul. *
*2 Tim. 3:16 - also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later. *
*2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul’s reference to the “man of God” who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although Protestants use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful. *
*2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul’s use of the word “complete” for every good work is “artios” which simply means the clergy is “suitable” or “fit.” Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, Protestants cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete. *
*James 1:4 - steadfastness also makes a man “perfect (teleioi) and complete (holoklepoi), lacking nothing.” This verse is important because "teleioi"and “holoklepoi” are much stronger words than “artios,” but Protestants do not argue that steadfastness is all one needs to be a Christian. *
*Titus 3:8 - good deeds are also “profitable” to men. For Protestants especially, profitable cannot mean “exclusive” here. *
*2 Tim 2:21- purity is also profitable for “any good work” (“pan ergon agathon”). This wording is the same as 2 Tim. 3:17, which shows that the Scriptures are not exclusive, and that other things (good deeds and purity) are also profitable to men. *
*Col. 4:12 - prayer also makes men “fully assured.” No where does Scripture say the Christian faith is based solely on a book. *
2 Tim. 3:16-17 - Finally, if these verses really mean that Paul was teaching sola Scriptura to the early Church, then why in 1 Thess. 2:13 does Paul teach that he is giving Revelation from God orally? Either Paul is contradicting his own teaching on sola Scriptura, or Paul was not teaching sola Scriptura in 2 Tim. 3:16-17. This is a critical point which Protestants cannot reconcile with their sola Scriptura position.
 
I thought it originated because the Catholic Church invented indulgences to get money to rebuild that cathedral in Rome and when the educated Catholics compared what the establishment was doing with the Bible and showed that the Catholic Church was teaching things that were wrong according to the Bible, like indulgences, the Catholic Church got mad and anathemized everybody. They just threw them out. And the people they threw out are still Christians but they go with what they think the Bible says and not with what the Catholic Church says. Am I wrong? 🤷
Indulgences were not invented; they were however, being abused in certain places and that was Luther’s complaint. The selling of indulgences was abolished. Should we leave Jesus’ church when corruption rears its ugly head or trust that Jesus will fix His church?

Let’s say the CC founded by God is the big bad wolf; help me find the one true reformed church *(the Christians that "go with what they think the Bible says and not with what the Catholic Church says) * - considering the fact that the reformers soon disagreed among themselves and divided their movement according to their own doctrinal differences; first between Luther and Zwingli, later between Luther and John Calvin, and so on and so on - consequently resulting in the establishment of different and rival Protestant Churches.

ML was eventually excommunucated because he started teaching the following; not because the CC got mad due to ML’s rightful rejection of the selling of indulgences:

The Bible is the only source of faith.

Human nature has been totally corrupted by original sin, and man, accordingly, is deprived of free will. Whatever he does, be it good or bad, is not his own work, but God’s.

Faith alone…He didn’t believe what the bible said about faith without works is dead.

The hierarchy and priesthood are not Divinely instituted or necessary… Ecclesiastical vestments, pilgrimages, mortifications, monastic vows, prayers for the dead, intercession of saints, avail the soul nothing.

All sacraments, with the exception of baptism, Holy Eucharist, and penance, are rejected.

The priesthood is universal; every Christian may assume it, with which the CC agreed. A body of specially trained and ordained men to dispense the mysteries of God is needless and a usurpation.

There is no visible Church …
 
The problem with many SS advocates is that they merely slice and dice scripture (i.e., 2 Tim 3:16-18) to prove a point. One has to use the entire context of scripture,not just selected verses and build an entire doctrine off it. Nonetheless, SS will claim Catholics do the same (i.e., Matt 16:18) to prove the papacy? Ah no! Because the CC uses not only that passage but Peter’s entire ministry throughout the NT to support his position and leadership in the early community of believers.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Article -“Origins of Peter as Pope”, found here at CAF.
 
Rightlydivide or any other SS advocate, let’s assume that you are right and I am wrong. Let’s assume that the inspired word of God (bible alone) - is the sole source of truth and the Christians only authority regarding faith and morals, and everything and anything outside the purview of sacred scripture is extraneous at best.

With that said, surely God left the world with an inspired interpreter for His inspired word.

Can you please identify the inspired interpreter of the inspired word of God?
 
I am not familiar with a verse speaking about inspired interpretation: what verse would you like to discuss?
 
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