You caught us Catholics!!! It is repitition!!!

[elvisman]

What I am saying is that Scripture clearly teaches that a momentous thing happens at the moment of salvation–the new birth. It was planned in eternity past, and EVERYTHING changes. But I don’t think the RCC sees that. Forget about the debate of OSAS, you need to discuss OS. What do you think must accompany baptism to experience the new birth, and what do you think happens to a man at that point?

You don’t think Jesus’ Church sees this clearly?
Tell me something. You’re the one who rejects Jesus’ only Church here on earth. You tell me what you think happens.
You’re mistaking rebirth for salvation. You don’t believe that it is possible to fall from grace - even though I’ve shown you from Scripture that it IS. You’re inconsistent - as are many Protestant beliefs.

As Scripture tells us - I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), BUT I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
**It’s not a one time occurrence - it’s a process. If you deny that then St. Paul is a liar. **
Once saved? You’ll find out when you die.

 

[brkn1]

Yes, since those who have not yet been evangelized would have had no way of encountering these teachings. Neither Jesus nor St. Paul ever said things merely to be rhetorical - they were speaking to real believers who really were sinning, or could potentially have chosen to sin. Remember what Jesus says to those who cry out “Lord, Lord” (have faith and believe in Him) but do not do the things that He has commanded them to do - “good works,” as they are called.

We don’t “get saved” by our good works, but we remain saved by them - and not to do them, or else to commit sin, is to “work our way into Hell,” in a manner of speaking.

We would have something to boast about, if our works kept us saved.
A saved person will do good works by the power of God after being saved. Those resulting works are evidence of being saved and they increase ones faith, but they do not save a person in any way. Salvation is the work of God alone.

I have to go now jmcrae. Good night.

 

[RobHom]

A Catholic would go to purgatory?

Wrong…

 

[RobHom]

I thought Jesus said that He would leave His 99 sheep behind to go fetch the one lost one?

Once a person is saved, that person becomes one of Jesus’ sheep. As a Good Shepherd, Jesus never loses any of his sheep.

???

Well, which one is it???

I’m sorry…but you make no sense at all. You want to have your cake and eat it to.

Lets see:

OSAS, once saved always saved…can run rampant committing murder and mayhem…but by golly…still going to Heaven…WhoooooHoooooo!! Where’s the autoloader? Look out Burger King…or should he go to the Mickey D’s with the Playplace?

Elect vs Non-Elect, God picks you…you got nothing to say about it. Free will is ethereal nonsense. Non-elect…even if you wanted to be saved…uh-uh, no can do, you done been predestinated for hell and there ain’t “jack” you can do about it!

??Lets see now, He** can’t** lose any, but if He does lose one, He’ll go looking for it…??

 

[RobHom]

We would have something to boast about, if our works kept us saved.

Very good…you’ve learned something!!

A saved person will do good works by the power of God after being saved. Those resulting works are evidence of being saved and they increase ones faith, but they do not save a person in any way. Salvation is the work of God alone.

Now I will place that in the context of a Catholic: A Catholic will do good works because a good Catholic believes that corporal and spiritual works are proof of the faith and belief as deemed necessary by Christ’s own words, and while a Catholic knows that works will not bring about salvation, a Catholic knows that “faith without works is dead, hence salvation is unattainable, because mouthing words proves little, and works driven by faith are the proof of faith”. A Catholic also knows that salvation is through Christ alone. But a Catholic also knows that Christ’s Words are far more important than those of any Apostle or Theologian.

Please read this from Matthew 25:

**31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. **

Now…if this is the case, and works have no part in salvation, how is it that Christ is “wrong”…His words are more than clear.

You’re getting a little closer to understanding brkn1…and you’re doing better…just a little more work on the theology and you’ll be in a lot better shape.

Good night.

Yes, Good Night, and take care.

 

[nbtb1348]

1st… You are comparing a natural birth to a spiritual birth. Your first error is in trying to compare a “fully involuntary act” with one that is “fully voluntary”… It makes as much sense as comparing a kumquat to an elephant.

2d… But even though Paul talks about a war within the saved person…why is there a war in that person? Are they not saved?

3d…A man is born and raised a Christian, accepts Christ as his Savior…lives a good Christian life for many years, lets say 50 years, then one day…something tragic happens in his life, something that is inexplicable, and he goes nuts and walks into a Burger King full of moms and dads and kids on a Sunday afternoon with an AK-47 and kills 40 or 50 innocent people. He is captured and examined by no less than five Psychatrists and certified fully sane…just angry. Understands right and wrong, is mentally competent, and has proven it.

So, according to “your theology”:

He’s still “saved”, he is “guaranteed” salvation??

Unless of course what all the blather and bluster about the “elect vs the non-elect” is really little more than a religious ponzi scheme with a built in cop out to account for failures by declaring someone as having “never been saved” anyway?

Rob-You erect a ‘Straw Man’ and tear him down (are you familiar with that expression?)
1.Scripture teaches that born again people still sin.
2.It teaches that the direction of their life changes when they get saved and they follow Christ and righteousness.
3.It teaches that you will know them by their fruit.
4.It teaches that many on the last day will be surprised to find out they are not saved.
5.It teaches that the new birth is a birth much more real and much more permanent than the physical one. Here’s just two of the scores of vss on this point:

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”-II Cor 5:17

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”-John 5:24

 

[nbtb1348]

You don’t think Jesus’ Church sees this clearly?
Tell me something. You’re the one who rejects Jesus’ only Church here on earth. You tell me what you think happens.
You’re mistaking rebirth for salvation. You don’t believe that it is possible to fall from grace - even though I’ve shown you from Scripture that it IS. You’re inconsistent - as are many Protestant beliefs.

As Scripture tells us - I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), BUT I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
It’s not a one time occurrence - it’s a process. If you deny that then St. Paul is a liar.
Once saved? You’ll find out when you die.

Dear friend, you are caught in the Galatian error. Paul hated it more than any sin! We share the truth over and over but you just don’t hear it

Paul works OUT his salvation, he doesn’t work FOR it.
Of course there is a present tense and a future tense salvation. We have talked about that. But they do not affect the past tense salvation!!! And yes, THAT salvation is simultaneous with the new birth.

Someone who says they are saved, but then rejects Jesus later…John says they never were saved. It is so simple.

We don’t reject Jesus’ church, we grow in it, submit to its leaders, worship with it, add souls to it, watch as it sees converts like those the day Peter preached in Acts 2 (something you NEVER see, I fear).

Ask God to speak to your heart as to whether what we say about these and other Scriptures are true.

And then let me simplify it a little further. What kind of family were YOU raised in? Is it one where the father will disown his children if the act disobedient? If they run away for a while during their teens, would the father in your family lock the door for good? I hope I can say 'of course not!" Please think about this for a minute. We know the God of the Bible. No, Elvisman, we KNOW him. He has let us come to know him more and more each day. But I learned a long time ago that the God of the Bible, the one who planned our salvation in eternity past, when He adopts a sinner into his family at the moment of true conversion, that person is much more secure than my kids are in my house. And I would NEVER disown them. God is so far superior as a Father to me as a father. You need to come to the One who will never disown you. He can make that promise because He laid on Jesus every (and I mean EVERY) sin you would ever commit. This is the Father we love and adore and follow, not out of fear, but out of incredible gratitude.

"For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”–Romans 8:15

 

[JohnVIII]

There is no Bible verse that speaks against repetition, but there is one that speaks against “vain” repetition. One of the Commandments is “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain”. Does this mean that the name of the Lord should not be used at all? Old time Judaism seemed to think that this was the case, so they never pronounced the Name of God. This is extremism! Likewise, to do away with repetitious prayers altogether, just because vain repetition is wrong, is extremism as well. It’s just another contrived thing in an attempt to make Catholicism look bad - a “vain” attempt at that!

 

[Chancellare]

There is no Bible verse that speaks against repetition, but there is one that speaks against “vain” repetition. One of the Commandments is “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain”. Does this mean that the name of the Lord should not be used at all? Old time Judaism seemed to think that this was the case, so they never pronounced the Name of God. This is extremism! Likewise, to do away with repetitious prayers altogether, just because vain repetition is wrong, is extremism as well. It’s just another contrived thing in an attempt to make Catholicism look bad - a “vain” attempt at that!

This is typical of word-twisting Scriptures to fit ones’ argument.
Protestants used the same word-twisting in the issue about ‘faith alone’:
Romans 3:28 says: For we hold that man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

So there is no ‘faith alone’ there.

The only ‘faith alone’ phrase is saying the opposite:

James 2:24: …man is justified by works and not by faith alone.!

Luther injected the german word ‘alein’ in Romans 3:28 and this was picked up by others without thinking.

 

[JohnVIII]

This is typical of word-twisting Scriptures to fit ones’ argument.
Protestants used the same word-twisting in the issue about ‘faith alone’:
Romans 3:28 says: For we hold that man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

So there is no ‘faith alone’ there.

Dear brother, I’m in full agreement with you about this I would like to use your words help start a new thread:

New thread: [thread=303575]Is it by Faith Alone?[/thread]

 

[elvisman]

Dear friend, you are caught in the Galatian error. Paul hated it more than any sin! We share the truth over and over but you just don’t hear it

Paul works OUT his salvation, he doesn’t work FOR it.
Of course there is a present tense and a future tense salvation. We have talked about that. But they do not affect the past tense salvation!!! And yes, THAT salvation is simultaneous with the new birth.

Someone who says they are saved, but then rejects Jesus later…John says they never were saved. It is so simple.

We don’t reject Jesus’ church, we grow in it, submit to its leaders, worship with it, add souls to it, watch as it sees converts like those the day Peter preached in Acts 2 (something you NEVER see, I fear).

Ask God to speak to your heart as to whether what we say about these and other Scriptures are true.

And then let me simplify it a little further. What kind of family were YOU raised in? Is it one where the father will disown his children if the act disobedient? If they run away for a while during their teens, would the father in your family lock the door for good? I hope I can say 'of course not!" Please think about this for a minute. We know the God of the Bible. No, Elvisman, we KNOW him. He has let us come to know him more and more each day. But I learned a long time ago that the God of the Bible, the one who planned our salvation in eternity past, when He adopts a sinner into his family at the moment of true conversion, that person is much more secure than my kids are in my house. And I would NEVER disown them. God is so far superior as a Father to me as a father. You need to come to the One who will never disown you. He can make that promise because He laid on Jesus every (and I mean EVERY) sin you would ever commit. This is the Father we love and adore and follow, not out of fear, but out of incredible gratitude.

That’s a nice, warm fuzzy sentiment – but it is not Christian by any means. It has never been a belief of the historical Christian faith – that is, until the “Reformation” (Rebellion).

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Scriptures tells us in no uncertain terms that not only can you turn away from God – you can lose your salvation.
These verses

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Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21** speak clearly about those who were in God’s grace and LOST it. Unfortunately, the Rebels – you call them “Reformers” – were filled with pride and refused to follow the teachings of the Church and twisted the scriptures to their ****own **destruction.

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The problem with you and many Protestants is that you don’t take all of Scripture in context. You pick it apart and ignore anything that you disagree with - OR you rationalize the other verses away.

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Remember what our Lord said, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven.****” (Matt. 7:21)