You Must Know This Man

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But for Grace:
Hashi Al-Eritre - I think that you are mistaken on this because the Trinity is all about relationships. Let me use a metaphor:

A son, a father, and a husband all come to the dinner table but only need one chair.

I am my parent’s son, my childern’s father, and my wife’s husband, but that does not make it illogical, unreasonable, or improbable for me to be all three. In fact I am only fully myself when I embrace all that I am.
Hi But for Grace,

This isnt a very good metaphor, because in this case, it is still one man having all these roles, whereas in the trinity there are 3 separate beings. When Jesus was on earth, the Father was in the Heavens, etc… In other words, you guys believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One but at the same time 3 separate beings. The man in your metaphor is still one human being, not 3.

We believe God has soo many roles. He is The Creator, the Sustainer, the Provider, the All-Knowing, the AllPowerful, the King, so many roles. But He is still One Supreme Being.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Hi But for Grace,

This isnt a very good metaphor, because in this case, it is still one man having all these roles, whereas in the trinity there are 3 separate beings. When Jesus was on earth, the Father was in the Heavens, etc… In other words, you guys believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One but at the same time 3 separate beings. The man in your metaphor is still one human being, not 3.

We believe God has soo many roles. He is The Creator, the Sustainer, the Provider, the All-Knowing, the AllPowerful, the King, so many roles. But He is still One Supreme Being.
hmmm… how can God murder himself?

How is it righteous of God to murder and innocent man so the guilty can live?

How can God have a stool? or smell of sweat… or smash his finger while building as a carpenter or get a splinter?

How can God bleed?

Why would God choose to be a male and not a female?

Im curious.
 
Hi stillsearching,
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stillsearching:
God as a human died. God did not die. God as human died. And God as human resurrected. God has not and will not ever die.
I reply with the same reply R. gonzales gave.
Through God’s act of dying on the cross as a human, our God is fully capable of empathizing with all aspects of our human life- something your God cannot do as he has never experienced it. He has no understanding of being a human. And your God has no desire to understand being a human. It’s like an artist trying to make clay pots without knowing how clay or pottery works. It’s like a mechanic trying to fix a car without knowing how an engine works or how to drive one. This is what your God is like to a human. Never having known human pain, or human fear, or human love, he cannot fully understand a human. So in Islam, one is more of a slave to God than a willing servant, because there is no human freedom or dignity.
:ehh: My God doesnt understand what human beings go through??? :ehh: Hes like an artist trying to clay pots without knowing how to clay or pottery works??? :ehh:

My Creator, The One who fashioned me, The One who knows me better than i know myself, the All-Knowledgeable, who created all the emoitions and feeelings, pain and suffering, happiness and love, joy and sorrow, the one who created every single aspect about me, your telling me He, God!, doesnt know what humans go through? You compare GOD! to some ignorant artist or mechanic?

I cannot even begin to understand how anyone can view their Lord in such an angle, as if God, before Jesus, was ignorant of what humans go through,until Jesus came? as if God was like an ignorant mechanic or artist, until Jesus came? as if God NEEDED to become human to know what humans go through? :ehh:

stillsearching, how does your innate nature or simple reason allow you to view God in such a way? Are we worshipping the Supreme Being here or some deficient diety?

Ill agree with you this much though, me and you are definately not worshiping the same God! Far removed is God from what they attribute to Him… and May God guide us to the truth,
Hashi
 
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BrJimC:
hmmm… how can God murder himself?

How is it righteous of God to murder and innocent man so the guilty can live?

How can God have a stool? or smell of sweat… or smash his finger while building as a carpenter or get a splinter?

How can God bleed?

Why would God choose to be a male and not a female?

Im curious.
Hi brjimc,

if your comments were directed to me, im not a christian so i dont know, infact id like to know myself the answer to your questions from the christian point of view, but i havent gotten to that stage yet in my discussion. SInce you raised it up maybe someone will reply.
 
But for Grace:
ah, yes, Muhammed, a man unparralled in his legacy, a great religious leader, proud and charismatic insisting that his revalation be recognized as the only legitimate one.

I know of another man, meek and humble, who served people, who suffered and died under false pretense. He founded no nation but his followers now cover the world. He was not a social or political reformer but his words accomplished just that. He changed mens hearts not just their minds.

Perhaps you are right no other man did as much as Muhammed, but then again, not everyone born of a woman has been man. One of them was much more. His name was Jesus Christ and where Muhammed brought a sword, Christ bore the Cross, where Muhammed condemned peoples sins, Christ forgave them. Where Muhammed was a man, Christ IS God incarnate.

Perhaps it would do us some good to know Muhammed, but it would do us irreprabale harm not to know Christ.
Jesus said that he didnt come to bring peace but the sword…

Furhermore, if being born of a virgin makes you God then Adam has more right to be called God since he was not born at all but created from dust.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Hi But for Grace,

This isnt a very good metaphor, because in this case, it is still one man having all these roles, whereas in the trinity there are 3 separate beings. When Jesus was on earth, the Father was in the Heavens, etc… In other words, you guys believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One but at the same time 3 separate beings. The man in your metaphor is still one human being, not 3.

We believe God has soo many roles. He is The Creator, the Sustainer, the Provider, the All-Knowing, the AllPowerful, the King, so many roles. But He is still One Supreme Being.
Hashi - I believe that you misunderstand the Christian description of the trinity. As we have said before God is 3 in 1, that is 3 persons in 1 being. The Father is the Son is the Spirit. We are not arguing 3 beings in God for that would be three gods, but three persons in one being. (there can only be one infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal being: to say otherwise is a logical contradiction)

Yes the metaphor breaks down, as any metaphor will, it is a tool, not a dogmatic statement.

Nothing limits God from being in many places at one time, in fact he is everywhere (that is part of what makes him God, he is an infinte being).
 
Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica: Part I, On the Trinity
Whether there are several persons in God?
Objection 1. It would seem that there are not several persons in God. For person is “the individual substance of a rational nature.” If then there are several persons in God, there must be several substances; which appears to be heretical.

Objection 2. Further, Plurality of absolute properties does not make a distinction of persons, either in God, or in ourselves. Much less therefore is this effected by a plurality of relations. But in God there is no plurality but of relations (28, 3). Therefore there cannot be several persons in God.

Objection 3. Further, Boethius says of God (De Trin. i), that “this is truly one which has no number.” But plurality implies number. Therefore there are not several persons in God.

Objection 4. Further, where number is, there is whole and part. Thus, if in God there exist a number of persons, there must be whole and part in God; which is inconsistent with the divine simplicity.

On the contrary, Athanasius says: “One is the person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost.” Therefore the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are several persons.

I answer that, It follows from what precedes that there are several persons in God. For it was shown above (29, 4) that this word “person” signifies in God a relation as subsisting in the divine nature. It was also established (28, 1) that there are several real relations in God; and hence it follows that there are also several realities subsistent in the divine nature; which means that there are several persons in God.

Reply to Objection 1. The definition of “person” includes “substance,” not as meaning the essence, but the “suppositum” which is made clear by the addition of the term “individual.” To signify the substance thus understood, the Greeks use the name “hypostasis.” So, as we say, “Three persons,” they say “Three hypostases.” We are not, however, accustomed to say Three substances, lest we be understood to mean three essences or natures, by reason of the equivocal signification of the term.

Reply to Objection 2. The absolute properties in God, such as goodness and wisdom, are not mutually opposed; and hence, neither are they really distinguished from each other. Therefore, although they subsist, nevertheless they are not several subsistent realities–that is, several persons. But the absolute properties in creatures do not subsist, although they are really distinguished from each other, as whiteness and sweetness; on the other hand, the relative properties in God subsist, and are really distinguished from each other (28, 3). Hence the plurality of persons in God.

Reply to Objection 3. The supreme unity and simplicity of God exclude every kind of plurality of absolute things, but not plurality of relations. Because relations are predicated relatively, and thus the relations do not import composition in that of which they are predicated, as Boethius teaches in the same book.

Reply to Objection 4. Number is twofold, simple or absolute, as two and three and four; and number as existing in things numbered, as two men and two horses. So, if number in God is taken absolutely or abstractedly, there is nothing to prevent whole and part from being in Him, and thus number in Him is only in our way of understanding; forasmuch as number regarded apart from things numbered exists only in the intellect. But if number be taken as it is in the things numbered, in that sense as existing in creatures, one is part of two, and two of three, as one man is part of two men, and two of three; but this does not apply to God, because the Father is of the same magnitude as the whole Trinity, as we shall show further on (42, 1 and 4).
 
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BrJimC:
hmmm… how can God murder himself?

How is it righteous of God to murder and innocent man so the guilty can live?

How can God have a stool? or smell of sweat… or smash his finger while building as a carpenter or get a splinter?

How can God bleed?

Why would God choose to be a male and not a female?

Im curious.
BrJimC , Jesus was no mere man, He was God incarnate, as promised to the world in the Old Testament.

As for your other questions, How can God have hands?
How can God have eyes?
How can God forget?

Do you wish to see the verses I refer to? Or can you find them yourself in the Quran.
 
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hawk:
BrJimC , Jesus was no mere man, He was God incarnate, as promised to the world in the Old Testament.

As for your other questions, How can God have hands?
How can God have eyes?
How can God forget?

Do you wish to see the verses I refer to? Or can you find them yourself in the Quran.
Hawk,

dont even bother. It is clearly established in Islam that when God mentions His Hands or Eyes in the Quran, it is not meant that He has eyes like ours or hands like ours. Rather God also says in the QUran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer and All-Seer”. God’s attributes, even if they share the same name as that of humans, they do not resemble that of humans. God also has Knowledge. Does that mean He has knowledge like ours? No. God also Has Power, does that mean it is like our power? no. And God does NOT forget. Please do not attribute to the Quran that it says God forgets.

Its funny you mention all that because its you who believes God has eyes and hands and a whole body like a human since you claim Jesus was God yet he came as a human. And i know you know Islam is very much against attributing to God any imperfections or similarities to the creation.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Hawk,

dont even bother. It is clearly established in Islam that when God mentions His Hands or Eyes in the Quran, it is not meant that He has eyes like ours or hands like ours. Rather God also says in the QUran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer and All-Seer”. God’s attributes, even if they share the same name as that of humans, they do not resemble that of humans. God also has Knowledge. Does that mean He has knowledge like ours? No. God also Has Power, does that mean it is like our power? no. And God does NOT forget. Please do not attribute to the Quran that it says God forgets.
This is strange, why would God use the word hand to describe what is obviously not a hand?

Dont you think that makes the Quran, a little less than “clear tongue”?

Now here is the interesting thing, Christians say God has all the power, we are actually powerless. Everything flows from God.
All goodness is from God.

Christians truly submit to the will of God, in way that muslims could never comprehend.
Its funny you mention all that because its you who believes God has eyes and hands and a whole body like a human since you claim Jesus was God yet he came as a human. And i know you know Islam is very much against attributing to God any imperfections or similarities to the creation.
I also know that God walked this earth 2000 years ago, much as I do today, and for Him, with all His majesty and glory, to humbly do this, I am forever grateful.
How I love my Lord my God, Jesus Christ.
I shall forever be grateful and loving of Him, I shall never deny Him, not even on the pain of death. I love Him forever.

I also know that God created me perfect, I choose imperfection.
 
Why would God say to Israel under the penalty of the desolation of their land and all of the plagues that He placed on Egypt , “Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord your God is One.” and He really ment three?

“Hear Oh Israel the Lord your God is One” Deuteronomy 6:4 is the Islamic Creed
“there is no god except the One God” la illaha Ilallah

Of course minuse the ethnic designation but the creed is the same… how can God change?

How can God be incarnate when the bible says that God is the same and years have no end (Psalms 102:25-28)… He has no form (Deuteronomy 4:15) and that there is nothing like him in the earth, under the earth, in the sea or under the sea (Deuteronomy 5:7-9)… and that God does not age in years like men (Psalms 102:25-28)? or there is none besides you? (1 Samuel 2:2) He has no equal? (Isaiah 40:25)

How about God is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should repent? (Numbers 23:19)

so much proof from the bible… how do you alter those verses?

Exodus 8:9-10
Numbers 23:19
Deuteronomy 6:4
Deuteronomy 4:15
Deuteronomy 5:7-9
1 Samuel 2:2
2 Samuel 7:22
1 Chronicles 17:20
Psalms 102:25-28
Ecclesiastes 3:18 “Men are like beasts”
Isaiah 40:25
Isaiah 46:3-9
Hosea 13:4 “there is no savior besides Me (God)”
Zechariah 14:9 Gods name is One

And that is just some of the Hebrew Scriptures… There are many Christian Scriptures too. This is OVERWHLEMING evidence to the contrary that you are asserting…

How do you reconcile that?
 
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BrJimC:
Why would God say to Israel under the penalty of the desolation of their land and all of the plagues that He placed on Egypt , “Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord your God is One.” and He really ment three?
Do you really think that we believe God is three.
Forget the Quranic claim for a second, which really doesnt even address the idea of the Trinity, but some completely different idea of the Allah, Isa and Maryam, being the trinity.

Inshallah I shall deal with your misconceptions, i am tired tonight, but i will deal with all of them

Wa’salam
 
Hawk,

We do believe God has a Hand, however it is not like our Hand. God has a 2 Hands, a Face, Eyes, He Hears and Sees everything, etc. We do not however liken His atttributes to any of the creation. And i have already mentioned the verse in the quran “There is nothing like Him…” You on the other hand do believe God’s hands is like your hand because you believe Jesus was God.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Hawk,

We do believe God has a Hand, however it is not like our Hand. God has a 2 Hands, a Face, Eyes, He Hears and Sees everything, etc. We do not however liken His atttributes to any of the creation. And i have already mentioned the verse in the quran “There is nothing like Him…” You on the other hand do believe God’s hands is like your hand because you believe Jesus was God.
I dont see anything wrong with the idea that God can be like His creation.
Do you think that God cannot be like His own creation?
Is Allah not omnipotent?
Is it impossible for Him?

How can you place any limitation on the capability of God?

So yes God incarnated just like he promises in the Old Testament.
This is a testament to His unlimited power.
 
Here is an interesting idea:

Can God create another divine being?

If you answer yes; the dvine being would have to be God himself. In order to create another divine nature from one divine nature would be total non-sense. So God would rather make a ‘copy’ of himself. This ‘copy’ would be God and God would be this ‘copy’ as a result God would love the ‘copy’ with all his heart and the ‘copy’ would love God with all his heart, since the Copy is God and God is the Copy. As a result of this love the Holy Spirit is now formed and is the bond between God and the Copy.

If you answered no; God could not ‘create,’ so to speak another divine being as said before God is God and there are no other gods. For God to be in the presence of anyother devine being he would have to be in the presence of himself or a copy of himself. And from here the bond between the two is the Holy Spirit.

Now the question becomes why would God do that?
 
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hawk:
How can you place any limitation on the capability of God?
this argumentation is akin to those who ask the retarded question, “can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?”; based on faulty logic and flawed reasoning.
 
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r.gonzales:
this argumentation is akin to those who ask the retarded question, “can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?”; based on faulty logic and flawed reasoning.
It is absolutely not , where is the paradox in my question?
 
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chb03c:
Can God create another divine being?



If you answered no; God could not ‘create,’ so to speak another divine being as said before God is God and there are no other gods. For God to be in the presence of anyother devine being he would have to be in the presence of himself or a copy of himself. And from here the bond between the two is the Holy Spirit.
The obvious conclusion from this then is that “God” is not omnipotent and hence this “God” is not God but an imposter
 
But for Grace:
The obvious conclusion from this then is that “God” is not omnipotent and hence this “God” is not God but an imposter
Sorry guys,

let me get this right… for God to be omnipotent he has to create another God???

Why would God create another God to begin with? And why would He create a human God when it does not befit for God to be a human? What if he created 10 Gods, or 100 Gods or more? That would make him more omnipotent?

And i thought Christians believed in One God but through the understanding of the trinity… now this is leading me to understand you truely believe in 3 separate Gods.

**Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! (Al-Anbiya 21:22)
** (Quan 21:22 )

No son did Allâh beget, nor is there any god along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Quran 23:91)
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Sorry guys,

let me get this right… for God to be omnipotent he has to create another God???

Why would God create another God to begin with?
Infact if you examine the argument, God cannot create another God, because that God would be God. So this is a paradox.
And why would
He create a human God when it does not befit for God to be a human?
I still dont understand what specifically you obejct to, about humans. Why should it not befit God to incarnate?
When that is exactly what He promises to do.
What if he created 10 Gods, or 100 Gods or more? That would make him more omnipotent?
I think that has been dealt with.
And i thought Christians believed in One God but through the understanding of the trinity… now this is leading me to understand you truely believe in 3 separate Gods.
So you say…
Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! (Al-Anbiya 21:22) (Quan 21:22 )
True
No son did Allâh beget, nor is there any god along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him!
Once more, Obviously the Quran does not understand the meaning of the term beget, Christians do not believe that God had sex with a woman and begat a son.
This is not to be understood in the anthropological sense.

Obviously Mohammed misunderstood, the christians who told him the Biblical stories.
 
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