You Must Know This Man

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hawk:
It is absolutely not , where is the paradox in my question?
of course it is. it is akin in the sense that if we answer no, God cannot be like His creation, then you will accuse us of putting limitations upon Him. similarly, the atheists will claim the same thing by saying, “if God cannot create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it, then He cannot do whatever He wants.”

Allah says in the Quran, “there is not anything like Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.” and He says, “and there is nothing comparable to Him.” He is completely unique in every aspect, although His creation’s attributes may share the same name; i.e., hearing, seeing, love, anger, pleasure, hate, etc. none of His attributes have equals or even anything similar to them. His sight is all encompassing. He sees everything, where as our sight is limited. He is everliving, never was born and will never die, whereas His creation has a beginning and an end. His creation is in need of sustainance, whereas He is forever self-sustaining, free from any need. He provides whatever He wills to whoever He wants, whereas we are only able to provide from that which we are given and to whom we are able.

this is why we say that God cannot and will not do such a thing, because it would violate this very fact - that there is nothing like Him, nor comparable to Him. nothing at all shares in His divinity.
 
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hawk:
Obviously the Quran does not understand the meaning of the term beget, Christians do not believe that God had sex with a woman and begat a son.
obviously, you don’t understand Allah’s negation of this in His Book, the Quran. Allah says that He does not beget, nor was He begotten due to the fact that you believe jesus is God. jesus was born of a woman - hence, you believe that God was begotten. you believe that God had a son, jesus - hence the statement that God does not beget, meaning He is the father of none - whether physical or metaphorical.
 
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r.gonzales:
obviously, you don’t understand Allah’s negation of this in His Book, the Quran. Allah says that He does not beget, nor was He begotten due to the fact that you believe jesus is God. jesus was born of a woman - hence, you believe that God was begotten. you believe that God had a son, jesus - hence the statement that God does not beget, meaning He is the father of none - whether physical or metaphorical.
And I say God is father to us all.
🙂

Sure you can say Abd and Rabb.

But I might ask you a question.

If I was to choose between the beloved slave, and my own child , who would I choose?

Therefore an ‘abd’ is not the same as a child, and we have God as our loving father.
 
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r.gonzales:
Allah says in the Quran, “there is not anything like Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.” and He says, “and there is nothing comparable to Him.” He is completely unique in every aspect, although His creation’s attributes may share the same name; i.e., hearing, seeing, love, anger, pleasure, hate, etc.
none of His attributes have equals or even anything similar to them. His sight is all encompassing. He sees everything, where as our sight is limited. He is everliving, never was born and will never die, whereas His creation has a beginning and an end. His creation is in need of sustainance, whereas He is forever self-sustaining, free from any need. He provides whatever He wills to whoever He wants, whereas we are only able to provide from that which we are given and to whom we are able.
This is hardly the point.
I agree with you, there is nothing like God. However far be me from limiting Him from being like me, should He choose.

What you are saying is God is not like us, and he cannot be like us.

I am saying God is not like us, but He can incarnate should He choose.

You are denying the omni-potence of God.

If you can explain why God cannot incarnate, How it would stop Him from being God then I can believe you.

But Our God, and your God did incarnate, to restore us to Him, and forever destroy the power of Satan.
this is why we say that God cannot and will not do such a thing, because it would violate this very fact - that there is nothing like Him, nor comparable to Him. nothing at all shares in His divinity.
You are saying right there that God cannot do this.

But why? So that your feeble intellect can neatly package His greatness.

Who are we to decide what God can or cannot do?

There is a reason God has to incarnate, because through His incarnation as Jesus Christ, we are restored to Him.

He promised this to us for 3000 years, I dont think I can change 3000 years of revelation.
 
Hi Reuben,

Sorry for the delayed response. I got myself a little preoccupied with some of the other posts.
Islam – perfect faith would never fall into major sin or even come near them.
Christianity – human fall into major sin regardless of who / what they are. To overcome sin, they need grace of God – a gift freely given as result of Jesus’ redemption by death on the cross.
Regarding this, i would also include in the beliefs of islam that humans fall into major sin regardless of who they are, except the Prophets and Messengers and those whom Allah has favoured such as Mary. The point about perfect faith is that if a person had perfect faith they would never fall into major sin, however no human can guarantee he will achieve that. Rather we are obligated to strive for it always even if we know we wont reach perfect faith.

As for overcoming sin, here is where we differ slightly. We both acknowledge we need the grace of God to overcome sin, however the manner in which we believe in this is different. In Islam we overcome sinning through repentance, obedience, consciousness of God, and calling upon Him to guide us against ourselves and satan. Thus, every human is soley responsible for themselves. In christianity, the grace is through believing in the sacrifice of Jesus. If there is anything im missing please do comment.
Islam & Christianity – God forgives those who repent.
Agreed.
What about if a person dies in major sin without repentance?
Islam – under God’s will who either punish them by His Justice or forgive them by His mercy.
Christianity (Catholic) – He will receive punishment according to the severity of sin committed. (hope this will answer your question).
I should add here that, in Islam, so long as a person’s sins is greater than his good deeds, they cannot enter Paradise, unless God either forgives them of their sins or punishes them for it as an expiation. However, after a person dies, the sin that will absolutely not be forgiven is disbelieving in God or associating partners with God in worship. So, even if a person claims hes a muslim but he willingly worships others along with God (ie. saints, pious men, as is the case today in many parts of the muslim world) and he does so KNOWING that Islam prohibits this, then they are also not be forgiven and will actually die as a disbeliever, even if he prayed and believed in the Prophets and messengers.

I would like to ask here if u could also elaborate more on the christian belief on this question.
Purpose of God’s creation:
I guess basically we agree but differ in emphasis. I don’t dismiss entirely your proposition that God created us to test us on whether we worship Him or not. There were incidents where God’s people were put to the test in the Bible e.g. Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac and the affliction of Job.
But I guess our difference is, for Christian, testing is not purpose of God’s creation, but like I said, it’s His love so that His creations can experience the goodness He had planned for them.
Yes. Infact every prophet and messenger was tested by his people. And every people whom a messenger or prophet came to them ordering them to believe, those people were also tested to see if they would accept the message.

A persons entire purpose on this earth is to worship God and be thankful to Him. His entire Afterlife depends on whether he believes or disbelieves. A persons success in both this life and the hereafter all depends on his beliefs and actions. So if he fails the test of accepting revelation and disbelieves and rejects to obey God, it doesnt matter what he accomplished in this life, he is still among the loosers in the next life.

If we speak of God’s Love for us, God will only love those who are righteous and believe and obey Him. He will not love a disbelieving wicked person. The Goodness God has planned for those He loves is Heaven/Paradise as a reward for their righteousness.

continued…
 
continued…
You ask, I paraphrase, if creation is because of God’ pleasure and love for them, then why not just admit all to paradise instead of us being here in this earth full of evil and harm?
Christian explanation for this - in the beginning, when man was created, they were in a place like paradise (not heaven) where there was no harm and no hardship. In other word, everything was good.
That was God’s first covenant with man – you are the master of all that are before you – birds in the sky and animals on the face of the earth. But you must obey Me – do not eat the fruit or you will die. Man disobeyed and therefore sinned (and broke the covenant) by eating the fruit. The consequence of sin, man is driven off from paradise and experience all the hardship in this world. You see, God is God of truth, He cannot go back on His word.
Since we are all descendants of the 1st man, Adam, we inherit this hardship and the knowledge of good and evil, which make us prone to sin. Sin leads to evil, evil leads to all kind of hardship, wickedness and death.
We are in agreement here thus far. We also believe Sin is what causes hardship and suffering etc. And we als believe the one who experiences hardship and suffering, their ordeal is either an expiation of their sins or reward, so long as they are patient.
If the covenant is followed strictly, that is the end of the story. Mankind because of their inherited nature will have no chance whatsoever to fight against sin. But that’s not the end, because of God’s love for mankind. Even though they disobeyed Him, He gave them another chance, so that despite their sin against Him, they would still be able to experience what was originally given to them in the beginning.
We are more or less in agreement here. Mankind will sin no doubt, and God has given us a chance to do good in order to be admitted into paradise. We just disagree about Adam. We believe his sin was his own sin, and every human although was created weak and will sin, he is only responsible for his own actions and does not share the sin of Adam. Also, we believe Adam was forgiven by God anyways because he repented.
However, this will take on different way, because man had already broken the covenant. We cannot revert to the 1st man paradise as there are still sinners in this world. Unless nobody sin, then that paradise situation can exist once more, after the end of the world, where the wickeds would be separated from the goods. Now, instead of the paradise situation all over again, for those who overcome sin, OR those who repent for their sin, would be promised heaven after their physical death.
We are more or less in agreement.
How did God go about this?
This is where Christian concept of God’s love comes in. Love is meaningless if He just made creation like robots with no mind of their own and so cannot sin. God gave man free will to be able to decide for himself.
God already set the rule. In order to bring back mankind to its original situation, the rule must be fulfilled. Consequence of sin is death. Sin was committed and therefore there must be death. If mankind who sinned escape death, someone else who does not sin must take their place, in order that the rule be fulfilled. Here, because of God’s love for us, He Himself takes that place (this is the sacrifice), He who does not sin, in the form of Jesus, so that mankind can live.
Thus for those who believe would receive this grace and be saved from sin and death. This is the major difference between us. I know there is plenty of objection to this as being unfair and God should not let Himself be so low as to be at human level. To the Christians, this is what made God great. Even though, if He wanted to, He can just let nature take its course, after all man had broken the covenant, He did not. That’s the love of God.
Now here is where we depart from agreeing. Yes mankind was not created like robots and they have the freedom to choose obedience over disobedience. But we disagree about the sacrifice part. Although i kinda see the point your trying to make, but i am lost in what death has to do with it. I mean a believer in the sacrifice will die too, and he will also sin, and like you said if he doesnt repent from his major sins he is punished for it in the next life. So how will his belief in the sacrifice save him from sin and death. And i also dont understand how God in the form of Jesus sacrificing himself would allow man to live. Unless youre speaking about the hereafter and believe all mankind’s souls will perish except those who believe in the sacrifice.

continued…
 
continued…

In Islam, there is no concept of this sort. It is as ive explained before, every soul is responsible for themselves. They are obligated to believe in God, His messengers, and His revelation. They are obligated to worship Him alone without partners. This is how they will aquire God’s Love and mercy for them. If they do not do this, then they will aquire God’s Wrath and displeasure. But even if the creation disbelieve, God does show His general Mercy to them in still providing for them their sustenance, wealth, provision, health, etc. But the special mercy and love is reserved to those who believe and do righteousness.

I appreciate your responses Reuben and look forward to your next one if you should have the time to reply.

May God guide us all to the truth.
Hashi
 
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BrJimC:
Jesus said that he didnt come to bring peace but the sword…

Furhermore, if being born of a virgin makes you God then Adam has more right to be called God since he was not born at all but created from dust.
Bringing a sword, it’s about context, try it out. And you’re setting up a ridiculous arguement, and an insipid one at that if you think anyone implied that being born of a virgin implies Godhood. It does not, but nevertheless God did enter the world as a human through a virgin.
 
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BrJimC:
Why would God say to Israel under the penalty of the desolation of their land and all of the plagues that He placed on Egypt , “Hear, Oh Israel, the Lord your God is One.” and He really ment three?

“Hear Oh Israel the Lord your God is One” Deuteronomy 6:4 is the Islamic Creed
“there is no god except the One God” la illaha Ilallah

Of course minuse the ethnic designation but the creed is the same… how can God change?

How can God be incarnate when the bible says that God is the same and years have no end (Psalms 102:25-28)… He has no form (Deuteronomy 4:15) and that there is nothing like him in the earth, under the earth, in the sea or under the sea (Deuteronomy 5:7-9)… and that God does not age in years like men (Psalms 102:25-28)? or there is none besides you? (1 Samuel 2:2) He has no equal? (Isaiah 40:25)

How about God is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should repent? (Numbers 23:19)

so much proof from the bible… how do you alter those verses?

Exodus 8:9-10
Numbers 23:19
Deuteronomy 6:4
Deuteronomy 4:15
Deuteronomy 5:7-9
1 Samuel 2:2
2 Samuel 7:22
1 Chronicles 17:20
Psalms 102:25-28
Ecclesiastes 3:18 “Men are like beasts”
Isaiah 40:25
Isaiah 46:3-9
Hosea 13:4 “there is no savior besides Me (God)”
Zechariah 14:9 Gods name is One

And that is just some of the Hebrew Scriptures… There are many Christian Scriptures too. This is OVERWHLEMING evidence to the contrary that you are asserting…

How do you reconcile that?
Reconcile this first: ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

Then ask your questions again.

Islam is a bastardized Heresy of Catholicism. Deal with it.
 
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r.gonzales:
this argumentation is akin to those who ask the retarded question, “can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?”; based on faulty logic and flawed reasoning.
And yet it is you Muslims who, while claiming God is all powerful, will ALWAYS be the first to put limitations on God. Hypocrisy at it’s finest.
 
Sorry guys,

let me get this right… for God to be omnipotent he has to create another God???

No one said He has to do anything. Don’t even try that tack.

Why would God create another God to begin with? And why would He create a human God when it does not befit for God to be a human? What if he created 10 Gods, or 100 Gods or more? That would make him more omnipotent?

Catholic theology has NEVER claimed that God created other gods. Again, you are twisting to try and support a theory that Catholicism has NEVER put forth.

And i thought Christians believed in One God but through the understanding of the trinity… now this is leading me to understand you truely believe in 3 separate Gods.

Don’t act like this is some new idea to you. The Trinity has been explained over and over already and you still claim we believe in three gods. The truth of the matter is you are only going to believe what you want no matter what we say.

Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him! (Al-Anbiya 21:22)

(Quan 21:22 )

No son did Allâh beget, nor is there any god along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him! (Quran 23:91)

Those quotes mean nothing to me. I take no heretic’s word nor anything from his made up book at any value concerning God. And Mohammed was exactly that, a heretic. Nothing more.
 
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r.gonzales:
obviously, you don’t understand Allah’s negation of this in His Book, the Quran. Allah says that He does not beget, nor was He begotten due to the fact that you believe jesus is God. jesus was born of a woman - hence, you believe that God was begotten. you believe that God had a son, jesus - hence the statement that God does not beget, meaning He is the father of none - whether physical or metaphorical.
Oh please. Mohammed was against the idea of God Incarnate. Wether this was because he was too daft to understand it or wether he just didn’t like the idea matters not. He kept it out of his book. He had to claim to be a prophet in order to gain power. Obviously something had to be modified though, because Catholicism states that after Christ, public revelation stopped. Why? Because it was no longer needed. Obviously that would be a problem for Mohammed so he did was he was very adept at doing. Picking and choosing. You can quote your Quran all day long but in the end it matters not one bit. We don’t believe in your book so quoting from it certainly won’t convince us of anything. You get it? It has no value to us.
 
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UnworthySoul:
We don’t believe in your book so quoting from it certainly won’t convince us of anything. You get it? It has no value to us.
Peace Unworthy,

They cannot convince anyone with anything, because the Truth is in the Bible, so let them say what they want.
You should control your outbursts though, I would dare to say it is not christian behaviour.
 
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hawk:
Peace Unworthy,

They cannot convince anyone with anything, because the Truth is in the Bible, so let them say what they want.
You should control your outbursts though, I would dare to say it is not christian behaviour.
Excuse me, Hawk, but it gets very tiresome when visitors to our forum are constantly attacking everything we Catholics hold dear, and not being charitable about it either! Enough is enough!
 
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Booklover:
Excuse me, Hawk, but it gets very tiresome when visitors to our forum are constantly attacking everything we Catholics hold dear, and not being charitable about it either! Enough is enough!
Turn the other cheek! Jesus taught us that.
 
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chb03c:
Turn the other cheek! Jesus taught us that.
Jesus did not turn the other cheek when merchants made a den of thieves out of His Father’s house!
 
I Know of this man. I also know of his followers. While it seems that every religion has followers that act in sinful ways that they would prefer not be connected to their religion…I still struggle to understand Islam.

I struggle to understand why governments in predominantly Muslim countries are so oppressive to their people? Would not a “religion of peace” guide the leaders to not treat their people this way.

I struggle to understand why there are so many followers of a “religion of peace” that seem to think killing babies via suicide will get them a ticket to heaven. I struggle to understand why so many Muslim Clerics validate this kind of behavior.

I struggle to understand why followers of other religions are so oppressed in predominantly Muslim countries, since Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim has no fear from our government when it comes to practicing their faith, however, Christians should most certainly fear for their lives when practicing their faith in a large number of predominantly Muslim countries. I struggle to understand the lack of tolerance.

I see you Muslims writing in this forum, trying to put the best face you can on your faith, however, you have a long way to go. Everyday the news gives us more stories of beheadings, bombings, murders, all done in the name of your faith. If you want to turn things around, you need to challenge those among you who you feel distort your faith by challenging their beliefs. Those among you who believe killing innocent people is a ticket to martyrdom, MUST feel their souls are in danger of eternal damnation in order for things to change. Your faith is in your hands…what are you planning to do with it?
 
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Booklover:
Excuse me, Hawk, but it gets very tiresome when visitors to our forum are constantly attacking everything we Catholics hold dear, and not being charitable about it either! Enough is enough!
Booklover,

Since joining this forum, i have yet to see a muslim ‘attacking’ your faith or insulting it. Rather i have seen this behaviour of hostility and hatred from a few of the non-muslim posters, proud kafir a prime example, and unworthysoul and even yourself in some cases as well. Its alright if one hates Islam, but if were going to have a diaologue i dont see what hostility and showing hatred will accomplish. it would be best we not waste our time posting then if we will behave that way.

I came here to perhaps correct some of the misconceptions people have about Islam as well as to answer questions pertaining to islam. I also have had some productive dialogue with some such as Rueben whom i think everyone here should take an example from in terms of ettiquettes of interfaith dialogue. If i said anything in an insulting manner please do forgive me, that was not my intent. And if other Muslim members have, bring it to their attention and im sure they will appologize.
 
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shockerfan:
I Know of this man. I also know of his followers. While it seems that every religion has followers that act in sinful ways that they would prefer not be connected to their religion…I still struggle to understand Islam.

I struggle to understand why governments in predominantly Muslim countries are so oppressive to their people? Would not a “religion of peace” guide the leaders to not treat their people this way.

I struggle to understand why there are so many followers of a “religion of peace” that seem to think killing babies via suicide will get them a ticket to heaven. I struggle to understand why so many Muslim Clerics validate this kind of behavior.

I struggle to understand why followers of other religions are so oppressed in predominantly Muslim countries, since Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim has no fear from our government when it comes to practicing their faith, however, Christians should most certainly fear for their lives when practicing their faith in a large number of predominantly Muslim countries. I struggle to understand the lack of tolerance.

I see you Muslims writing in this forum, trying to put the best face you can on your faith, however, you have a long way to go. Everyday the news gives us more stories of beheadings, bombings, murders, all done in the name of your faith. If you want to turn things around, you need to challenge those among you who you feel distort your faith by challenging their beliefs. Those among you who believe killing innocent people is a ticket to martyrdom, MUST feel their souls are in danger of eternal damnation in order for things to change. Your faith is in your hands…what are you planning to do with it?
We are living in times of Trials and tribulations. What is going on today is a trial affecting not just non-muslims but even more so the muslims.

I ask of you that you do not judge Islam by the practices of a fraction of a fraction of a percentile of Muslims. I am Muslim, and i know the scholars of Islam and the vast vast majority of Muslims are totally opposed to this terrorist ideology. There are a few who have attracted attention by propagating the terorist ideology, but believe me this is far from being the majority of Muslims.

Every religion will have its followers who do outragious things in the name of their religion, whether today or in the past. I dont judge christianity by its followers, past or present, unless if their practices are in line with what i see from the teachings of christianity. The terrist ideology is not from the correct teachings of Islam. It is a new ideology, so new that only today the world is beginning to understand its roots dating back to the mid 20th century. Unfortunately do to its propagation as well as the circumstances with the Muslim world today, it has aquired some followers. But again, this is by a long shot not anywhere near even a percentage of the over 1 billion Muslims today.
 
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r.gonzales:
You know what? You are right. Muhhamad IS foetold in the Bible. He is accuratly foretold in Deuteronomy 13 & Matthew 24:23-26. Also see Mark 13:22 and
2 Peter 2:1. Those verses clearly foretell of Muhhamad.

Also, I find it funny that they are reffering to the book Muslims say is corrupted. LOL
 
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