H
hawk
Guest
Far be us from equating this forum with The Temple.
Brother if you are upset, walk away.
Forgive them for the pain they cause you!
- Status
Brother if you are upset, walk away.
Forgive them for the pain they cause you!
H
hawk
Guest
Hashi Al-Eritre:
We welcome your presence here, as our guest, forgive the outbursts of our brother.
After all we all get worked up sometime, isnt that so?
Wa’salam
Peace Hashi,
We welcome your presence here, as our guest, forgive the outbursts of our brother.
After all we all get worked up sometime, isnt that so?
Wa’salam
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi Hashi, How ya doing?
Thanks for those responses. You did well and I find them informative. I guess I will not address those points which we have clearly agreed or disagreed. I still like to comment on a couple of points though for clarification.
Hashi Al-Eritre:
.
I will dwell a bit on the Christian’s definition of sin and death. Some commentators liken sin to rebellion against God. This is important key to understanding Christian concept of God. Christians have a relationship with God. They know and experience Him. Their relationship with Him is not just between a Creator and a creation, but more than that, something human can personally understand. We liken God as a father, as a King, as a shepherd and even as a friend.
Human understand fatherhood but the fatherhood of God goes beyond human fatherhood. **Lk 11:13 As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. **
A Father, human can approach Him with his deepest thought, like a child approaches its father, confident that the father loves him and will not reject him and give him things he asks, if the father thinks they’re good for his child.
Human experienced Kings who governed and protected them. Human understand shepherd who tends and leads his sheep to green pasture away from the ravines (difficulties in life and temptations) and wild animals (evil one).
Throughout the history of God and humans, He revealed to them that He is like a father, a king or a shepherd except that it goes beyond the goodness of the human ones. His Fatherhood, Kingship and being Shepherd is infinitely virtuous than the human ones.
**Sin. ** The sin of Judah is engraved on its heart like an inscription in stone (Jer17:1); it is like the rust which eats into a metal vessel (Eze 24:6). These metaphors attempt to express the damage of sin to the sinner. His guilt is not only a liability before God, but also a corruption of the person.
Guilt as liability before God is expressed by the Hebrew word ‘asam’. This is a responsibility which remains until it is removed. This also related to the idea “a straying”; the sinner leaves the path which leads to his destination and is lost. His life is aimless, and he will surely perish.
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Thanks for those responses. You did well and I find them informative. I guess I will not address those points which we have clearly agreed or disagreed. I still like to comment on a couple of points though for clarification.
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Sorry I did not elaborate on this. I forget for a while that I’m discussing with a non-Christian
.I will dwell a bit on the Christian’s definition of sin and death. Some commentators liken sin to rebellion against God. This is important key to understanding Christian concept of God. Christians have a relationship with God. They know and experience Him. Their relationship with Him is not just between a Creator and a creation, but more than that, something human can personally understand. We liken God as a father, as a King, as a shepherd and even as a friend.
Human understand fatherhood but the fatherhood of God goes beyond human fatherhood. **Lk 11:13 As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. **
A Father, human can approach Him with his deepest thought, like a child approaches its father, confident that the father loves him and will not reject him and give him things he asks, if the father thinks they’re good for his child.
Human experienced Kings who governed and protected them. Human understand shepherd who tends and leads his sheep to green pasture away from the ravines (difficulties in life and temptations) and wild animals (evil one).
Throughout the history of God and humans, He revealed to them that He is like a father, a king or a shepherd except that it goes beyond the goodness of the human ones. His Fatherhood, Kingship and being Shepherd is infinitely virtuous than the human ones.
**Sin. ** The sin of Judah is engraved on its heart like an inscription in stone (Jer17:1); it is like the rust which eats into a metal vessel (Eze 24:6). These metaphors attempt to express the damage of sin to the sinner. His guilt is not only a liability before God, but also a corruption of the person.
Guilt as liability before God is expressed by the Hebrew word ‘asam’. This is a responsibility which remains until it is removed. This also related to the idea “a straying”; the sinner leaves the path which leads to his destination and is lost. His life is aimless, and he will surely perish.
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Reuben_J
Guest
**Death. ** The ideal death was attained in the fullness of old age with undiminished powers (Gn 25:8, JB 2:23, 29:18-20). One who dies such as ideal death dies easily and quickly; and is not the victim either of premature death or a lingering wasting disease. Such death “embitters” one (Jb 21:15). The sense of the story of Paradise/creation (Gn 2-3) is that death is the consequence of the primeval fall (when Adam sinned) and that man was not created by God to be mortal.
In the imagery of the Paradise/creation story immortality is attained by eating the fruit of the tree of life, from which man is now excluded.
Later, New Testament (OT) adds the explicit and clear belief that death is a consequence and a punishment from sin (Rom 5:12). Here the parallel is drawn out at length between death to many through the sin of one, and life to many through the righteousness of one. Likewise in 1 Cor 15:22, we all die in Adam, but we are all brought to life in Christ.
Jesus has therefore overcome death by His own death. Death is the last adversary which He overcomes (1 Cor 15:25). He has deprived death of its power (2 Tim 1:10). He has rendered powerless the devil, the lord of death (Heb 2:14).
The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). Christ has died and came to life to rule over the living and the dead (Rom 14:9). Once Christ has risen from the dead He does not die again; death has no power over Him (Rom 6:9). When all had died, one died on behalf of all that they might live not for themselves but for him who died on their behalf (2 Cor 5:14f).
Because Jesus humiliated Himself to death, the Father has conferred on Him glory and honor (Phil 2:5ff). The Christian experiences Jesus’ victory over death by himself sharing in the death of Jesus. This is elaborated at length in Rom 6:2 ff. The Christian is baptized into the death of Jesus, for only thus can he rise with Him to a new life. Sharing in the death of Christ is a “planting” with Him (Rom 6:5).
The old man (our mind) is crucified. If we die with Christ we shall live with Him (Rom 6:8). We are dead to sin, living to God in Christ Jesus (Rom 6:11). If we live according to the flesh we shall die; but if by the spirit we kill the deeds of the body (avoiding sin) we shall live (Rom 8:13). A Christian is crucified with Christ so that he no longer lives, but Christ lives in him (Gal 2;20). Faith in Jesus does not protect one from death; but it gives assurance that one shall not die forever (John 11:26). To partake of the Eucharist (Catholic Christian worship) means that one shall not die but shall have eternal life (John 6:50f).
I hope that helps. It’s a bit theological and if you are unfamiliar with the Bible you can refer to the reference verses.
To recap – sin causes death to man. He lost his immortality which was originally intended. Death can be overcome by believing in Jesus (baptizing in Him) because He died and rise again. By overcoming death, one has life (eternal life). As mentioned in my earlier post, death is not overcome in this world; one will experienced physical death but it’s overcome in after life (hereafter – thanks for this term ), where death is associated with eternal hell and life with eternal life in heaven.
In this world, another aspect of “life” is life in the Spirit (the abundant life) where we overcome sin through God’s grace and through repentance. The aspect of “death” in this world is when one’s life is aimless and full of burden/worries. This “death” invariably has its cause in sin, which can only be overcome by the power of God within us (grace).
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In the imagery of the Paradise/creation story immortality is attained by eating the fruit of the tree of life, from which man is now excluded.
Later, New Testament (OT) adds the explicit and clear belief that death is a consequence and a punishment from sin (Rom 5:12). Here the parallel is drawn out at length between death to many through the sin of one, and life to many through the righteousness of one. Likewise in 1 Cor 15:22, we all die in Adam, but we are all brought to life in Christ.
Jesus has therefore overcome death by His own death. Death is the last adversary which He overcomes (1 Cor 15:25). He has deprived death of its power (2 Tim 1:10). He has rendered powerless the devil, the lord of death (Heb 2:14).
The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus frees us from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). Christ has died and came to life to rule over the living and the dead (Rom 14:9). Once Christ has risen from the dead He does not die again; death has no power over Him (Rom 6:9). When all had died, one died on behalf of all that they might live not for themselves but for him who died on their behalf (2 Cor 5:14f).
Because Jesus humiliated Himself to death, the Father has conferred on Him glory and honor (Phil 2:5ff). The Christian experiences Jesus’ victory over death by himself sharing in the death of Jesus. This is elaborated at length in Rom 6:2 ff. The Christian is baptized into the death of Jesus, for only thus can he rise with Him to a new life. Sharing in the death of Christ is a “planting” with Him (Rom 6:5).
The old man (our mind) is crucified. If we die with Christ we shall live with Him (Rom 6:8). We are dead to sin, living to God in Christ Jesus (Rom 6:11). If we live according to the flesh we shall die; but if by the spirit we kill the deeds of the body (avoiding sin) we shall live (Rom 8:13). A Christian is crucified with Christ so that he no longer lives, but Christ lives in him (Gal 2;20). Faith in Jesus does not protect one from death; but it gives assurance that one shall not die forever (John 11:26). To partake of the Eucharist (Catholic Christian worship) means that one shall not die but shall have eternal life (John 6:50f).
I hope that helps. It’s a bit theological and if you are unfamiliar with the Bible you can refer to the reference verses.
To recap – sin causes death to man. He lost his immortality which was originally intended. Death can be overcome by believing in Jesus (baptizing in Him) because He died and rise again. By overcoming death, one has life (eternal life). As mentioned in my earlier post, death is not overcome in this world; one will experienced physical death but it’s overcome in after life (hereafter – thanks for this term
), where death is associated with eternal hell and life with eternal life in heaven.In this world, another aspect of “life” is life in the Spirit (the abundant life) where we overcome sin through God’s grace and through repentance. The aspect of “death” in this world is when one’s life is aimless and full of burden/worries. This “death” invariably has its cause in sin, which can only be overcome by the power of God within us (grace).
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hashi:
If we speak of God’s Love for us, God will only love those who are righteous and believe and obey Him. He will not love a disbelieving wicked person. The Goodness God has planned for those He loves is Heaven/Paradise as a reward for their righteousness.
Reuben:
This of course is our major difference as mentioned earlier. Christians’ perspective is God loves all mankind including the disbelievings and the sinners. He only hates sin. For this, Christians believe that God went to great length to save the sinners. But if they refuse to believe and repent, they will face the consequence of their sins, that is death (lifeleless, aimless life on earth, or eternal hell after physical death where there is no life).
Hashi:
We just disagree about Adam. We believe his sin was his own sin, and every human although was created weak and will sin, he is only responsible for his own actions and does not share the sin of Adam. Also, we believe Adam was forgiven by God anyways because he repented.
Reuben:
Yes I guess so. Christians maintain that we inherit the hardship that was brought about by him. You see Hashi, Adam was created and given paradise. There he could not die and everything was good for him. God intended this for him and his descendants. But once he broke the covenant (sinned), everything changed. Instead of paradise, it is the wicked and problematic world where we all live now.
If Adam’s sin does not affect us, this is truly unfair. Why should we experience this world and not Adam’s paradise? (if after all we do not share his sin). It is because Adam sinned that we are also driven from paradise, which God originally intended for mankind (Adam and his descendants). Thus, since we who are innocent, suffer for Adam’s mistake, it is clearly obvious that somehow Adam’s action affected us. For this, Christians understand that God made covenant with Adam as a person and also as humanity.
My comment on your response to Hawk.
Hashi:
It is clearly established in Islam that when God mentions His Hands or Eyes in the Quran, it is not meant that He has eyes like ours or hands like ours. Rather God also says in the QUran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer and All-Seer”. God’s attributes, even if they share the same name as that of humans, they do not resemble that of humans. God also has Knowledge. Does that mean He has knowledge like ours? No. God also Has Power, does that mean it is like our power? no. And God does NOT forget. Please do not attribute to the Quran that it says God forgets.
Reuben:
Why does God speak to us in term of Hands or Eyes? It’s because of human limitation of vocabulary, intellect and understanding. Thus God in trying to bring His message to human must use term that humans can understand. Sure His Hands or Eyes are nothing like humans ones, but when these words are used humans get the ideas what God is trying to convey.
Christians understand this limitation and dilemma of humans. When Christians understand God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we used capital letters F, S and HS. They are something that humans can understand but they are nothing like humans ones.
Please take your time to response.
Peace.
May God bless you.
Reuben .
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If we speak of God’s Love for us, God will only love those who are righteous and believe and obey Him. He will not love a disbelieving wicked person. The Goodness God has planned for those He loves is Heaven/Paradise as a reward for their righteousness.
Reuben:
This of course is our major difference as mentioned earlier. Christians’ perspective is God loves all mankind including the disbelievings and the sinners. He only hates sin. For this, Christians believe that God went to great length to save the sinners. But if they refuse to believe and repent, they will face the consequence of their sins, that is death (lifeleless, aimless life on earth, or eternal hell after physical death where there is no life).
Hashi:
We just disagree about Adam. We believe his sin was his own sin, and every human although was created weak and will sin, he is only responsible for his own actions and does not share the sin of Adam. Also, we believe Adam was forgiven by God anyways because he repented.
Reuben:
Yes I guess so. Christians maintain that we inherit the hardship that was brought about by him. You see Hashi, Adam was created and given paradise. There he could not die and everything was good for him. God intended this for him and his descendants. But once he broke the covenant (sinned), everything changed. Instead of paradise, it is the wicked and problematic world where we all live now.
If Adam’s sin does not affect us, this is truly unfair. Why should we experience this world and not Adam’s paradise? (if after all we do not share his sin). It is because Adam sinned that we are also driven from paradise, which God originally intended for mankind (Adam and his descendants). Thus, since we who are innocent, suffer for Adam’s mistake, it is clearly obvious that somehow Adam’s action affected us. For this, Christians understand that God made covenant with Adam as a person and also as humanity.
My comment on your response to Hawk.
Hashi:
It is clearly established in Islam that when God mentions His Hands or Eyes in the Quran, it is not meant that He has eyes like ours or hands like ours. Rather God also says in the QUran “There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer and All-Seer”. God’s attributes, even if they share the same name as that of humans, they do not resemble that of humans. God also has Knowledge. Does that mean He has knowledge like ours? No. God also Has Power, does that mean it is like our power? no. And God does NOT forget. Please do not attribute to the Quran that it says God forgets.
Reuben:
Why does God speak to us in term of Hands or Eyes? It’s because of human limitation of vocabulary, intellect and understanding. Thus God in trying to bring His message to human must use term that humans can understand. Sure His Hands or Eyes are nothing like humans ones, but when these words are used humans get the ideas what God is trying to convey.
Christians understand this limitation and dilemma of humans. When Christians understand God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we used capital letters F, S and HS. They are something that humans can understand but they are nothing like humans ones.
Please take your time to response.
Peace.
May God bless you.
Reuben
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S
shockerfan
Guest
Hashi Al-Eritre:
I agree with you that every religion has followers that do outrageous things. Why do you suppose that those in Islam that do outrageous things seem to be more numerous than those in other religions who do outrageous things. From what I can tell in the news, those that participate in terrorism and those that support them either explicitely or implicitely seem to number a bit more than just a percentage. I have seen some reports that show up to 10% of Muslims support these people. That is 100 million people, which is not an insignificant number. It seems to me the issue is Wahhabism, which is the “sect” or “branch” of Islam that Osama bin Laden subscribes to. Do you think that Wahhabism is a problem? As a Muslim, what is the solution to all of the terrorism?
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hawk
Guest
Shocker fan,
Perhaps one of the reasons for this has everything to do with western civilisations colonialisation of my homeland.
Still as Christians we have to move forward, and cannot expect to get back an eye for an eye.
I think the islamic world too has to realise this, unfortunately it will take time before this realisation dawns on them. Society has to evolve where they stop defining themselves as us and them.
And needing to see the Islamic flag flying everywhere in the world.
Until every muslim gives up hope of the Khilafa, there will always be war.
H
Hashi_Al-Eritre
Guest
Hi Shockerfan,
im not sure which statistics youre refering to but i strongly believe they are either inaccurate or heavily exaggerated. I myself am a Muslim and interact with Muslims everyday. Just this past Friday sermon the speech was on how Islam holds sacred the life of a human and how Islam prohibits killing innocents. And speeches like this are being made all around the Mosques nowadays. I have yet to attend a sermon advocating the terrorist ideology. If the percentage was indeed that high, the situation in the world would be so much worse. Rather, the percentage that support and advocate such acts is extremely low, a fraction of a percentile, and the ones actually engaging in terrorist activities are a handful of individuals. But because their actions cause so much attention, and rightly so, they would percieve to many that these sorts of acts are being done by many Muslims and supported by even more.
These acts are actually affecting the Islamic nations just as much as the non-muslim nations. In Iraq, it is almost a daily occurance that Abu Mus’ab and his gang kill innocent Iraqis, claiming they are apostates because they support the U.S. In Saudi, the police force there is struggling to combat the recent wave of terrorist bombings. In Egypt, last year and just recently, there were bombings there as well.
Perhaps the stats are regarding Muslims in the middle east that support fighting Americans, that i could believe because many have animosity towards the U.S. and Bush due to him invading Afganistan and Iraq , and daily they see the images on Al Jazeerah News of muslims harmed and killed by the war, as well as the sanctions they imposed on Iraq, and their support for Israel, and their international policies, i mean there is alot one needs to put into consideration to understand the enmity Muslims especially the Arab Muslims in the middle east have for America. And whether its terrorists killing people or a country killing people, it is all oppression.
But again, supporting killing innocent people, muslim or non-muslim, i cannot phathom it being the percentage you have given, especially now that Muslims have seen terrorist acts being committed in their own lands.
As for blaming the ideology on Wahabism, there is alot of misconception and myth about this term. I have yet to meet a Muslim that calls himself ‘wahaabi’. And i dont think Bin Laden has ever called himself Wahabi. To Muslims, whether hes orthodox in how he follows Islam or liberal, It is a very odd term to label oneself. I would recommend you visit thewahhabimyth.com/ as it talks about this term as well as outlining the methodology and ideology Bin Laden follows. I would also highly recommend a BBC documentary called “The Power of Nightmares” as it does an excellent job of presenting the history and ideology of Terrorism today: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64347
As for the solution, it definately isnt what the US is doing. The invasion to Iraq was simply unjustified from every angle, and the Muslims saw it as simply oppression and wrongful killing of Muslims, and it was. Acts like this only strengthen the resolve of the terrorists and even aid to increasing their rank. Also, going about fighting terrorism by ‘dismanteling’ Al Qaida isnt going to work. This isnt to say bin laden and zawahiri should be left alone, rather they should be prosecuted for their actions, but that Al Qaida is not what the media has made it appear to be, as some sophisticated network or terrorists stationed around the world. You cannot fight terrorism assuming it has a face or a headquarters or a head. Rather, its the ideology that has to be fought against. Tony Blair in his recent speech on terrorism made that point as well. And the only people who can effectively refute the ideology and its personalities from an Islamic perspective are the Muslim scholars and clergymen. And although they are authoring books refuting this ideology, and giving sermons, and issuing verdicts, it ofcourse needs time for the supporters of this ideology to accept their call. The developments of terrrism today was not overnight, nor is the solution going to take effect overnight.
Hope that helped.
S
shockerfan
Guest
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Thanks for the response, it does help. I do however, have a few more comments and questions:
- Perhaps its because I am not Muslim, and have never been to a Muslim nation, or I’m just plain naive, but it seems to me that those who oppose US intervention, preferred the previous conditions of oppression under Saddam Huessein or the Taliban in Afganistan. I’m sure that given a choice, that no Muslim would choose to live under those regimes, however, a temporary US presence seems like a better alternative to a permanant dictatorship or oppressive regime.
- Did Muslims oppose the US intervention in Bosnia to help prevent the Serbs attempted genocide of Muslims?
- I would disagree with the moral equivalencies drawn between the intentional targeting of innocent people by terrorists with the accidental deaths of innocent people due to a war waged against an oppressive government who murdered an estimated 500,000 Muslims.
- It seems to me that the terrorism done by extremists is the one thing that will prolong the war. If all fighting stopped, the US would be gone very soon. The problem is that those who advocate terrorism want to impose their will on the masses. The only thing they fear is going to hell. Until Muslim Clerics and scholars convince those who advocate terrorism that their very souls are in danger, I don’t see the violence subsiding.
H
Hashi_Al-Eritre
Guest
Hi shockerfan
shockerfan:
Also, the way to free a people from oppression isnt to go and invade their land, especially when the primary goals of the invasion wasnt even about freeing the iraqi people. Infact it wasnt even about weapons of mass distruction or about terrorism. Bush and his administration had their own gains by invading Iraq.
And it is not accidental what the U.S. has done. How is it accidental when a country intends to start a war with another country? Ofcourse there will be casualties, and many. They came with fighter jets, helicopter missiles, mines, tanks, and troops. Using this type of artillery is going to cause alot of casualties for sure. And this wasnt just about getting rid of Saddam, they came in to take over the country.
The effects of war on a country cannot be compared to the effects of random bombings. Definately the casualties and the distruction will be more in a war on a country than what a train bombing will do to that country. Im sure if we had the choice between an army invading our land to that of the fear of terrorist, we would choose the fear.
The Afgans and Iraqis have lived with war and death for the past 25 years. None of us here have experienced that kind of life.
Im happy youve raised this discussion and i hope my replies have helped in clarifying things for you regarding Islam and Muslims.
The Taliban were oppressive, and Saddam was a tyrant. We agree on that. But how can the solution to oppression be another oppression? While the taliban were in power, although the governement applied oppressive rules in how they governed, they didnt kill afgans, they didnt raide their villages with bombs, they didnt cause them to loose their family members. Same with Iraq. I encourage you to read this article to get a better insight on how much harm this invasion has caused Iraqis. cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
Also, the way to free a people from oppression isnt to go and invade their land, especially when the primary goals of the invasion wasnt even about freeing the iraqi people. Infact it wasnt even about weapons of mass distruction or about terrorism. Bush and his administration had their own gains by invading Iraq.
Im honestly not very familiar with what happened then, but I dont think that situation is the same as iraq or afgan. From what i know of that intervention, the U.S. targeted Serbian forces and their bases and buildings. It wasnt like Iraq in that it was an invasion of a Muslim land, nor did it cause the casualties of muslims that the iraq war has.
From what i know it is an estimated 100,000 Kurds that he killed. And it is said another 500,000 died in the pointless Iraq - Iran war which was actually aided by the U.S. Also, what Saddam did to the Kurds was not a continuous thing, it happened after the Iran war in 1988 when it is said the kurds were being rebelious. I could understand the U.S. coming to remove saddam then for genocide reasons, but they didnt. They didnt even remove him in 1991 in the gulf war. Instead they applied economic sanctions that caused just as much oppression Saddam did.
– John Pilger, “Squeezed to Death”, Guardian, March 4, 2000
And it is not accidental what the U.S. has done. How is it accidental when a country intends to start a war with another country? Ofcourse there will be casualties, and many. They came with fighter jets, helicopter missiles, mines, tanks, and troops. Using this type of artillery is going to cause alot of casualties for sure. And this wasnt just about getting rid of Saddam, they came in to take over the country.
The effects of war on a country cannot be compared to the effects of random bombings. Definately the casualties and the distruction will be more in a war on a country than what a train bombing will do to that country. Im sure if we had the choice between an army invading our land to that of the fear of terrorist, we would choose the fear.
The Afgans and Iraqis have lived with war and death for the past 25 years. None of us here have experienced that kind of life.
I definately agree with you on this point. More acts of terrorism will make the situation worse for muslims all around the world. It taints the image of Islam, it kills innocent civilians without any reason, and it causes more oppression on Muslims. Hopefully the Muslim scholars and clerics will be successful in their efforts against the terrorist ideology.
Im happy youve raised this discussion and i hope my replies have helped in clarifying things for you regarding Islam and Muslims.
- Status