You say you are right?

[trustme80]

That is very funny, trustme80. Thank you for brightening my
day with laughter.

i’m glad i did

Yet how did his cavalier striking down of a fig tree - comport with
respect for life, in all of it’s forms - as it comes from the hand
of the Creator?

i think the creator created life & death both as a part of humanity, and we can start respecting life by learning the meaning of death and its consequences to ourselves, our family, friends, everyone and thing, even our pets.

striking down a fig tree for not bearing fruit ?
maybe, if we dont have anything good to offer to the world, our existence doesnt have a meaning to anyone.

That fig tree had it’s life destroyed, so that Jesus could make a point?

sometimes we need a “tragedy” to actualy learn something

best wishes

 

[reen12]

Mark informs us that Jesus is hungry and that he uses the occasion of looking for food to instruct his disciples about the true spiritual condition of Israel. Jesus knew that while the tree was covered with leaves, it was not the season for figs. In effect, he is giving a living parable, acting out the principle parts of the story. We also need to know that throughout the Old Testament, the fig tree is used by the prophets as a symbol of Israel. A fruitful tree is a sign of blessing and obedience, while a tree without fruit is a sign of Israel’s poor spiritual condition (cf. Jeremiah 8:13; 29:17; Hosea 9:10, 16; Joel 1:7; and Micah 7:1-6). Furthermore, the prophets speak of the destruction of the fig tree as a metaphor for judgment upon Israel (Hosea 2:12; Isaiah 34:4)

Therefore, when Jesus approaches the fig tree, he is using that tree as a tangible symbol of Israel’s current spiritual condition just like the prophets had done. When Jesus curses the tree, he is showing what lies ahead for the city of Jerusalem and its temple --something unpacked by Jesus in great detail in Mark 13. The fig tree had many leaves (an apparent sign of vitality), but had no fruit (there was no substance). The Israelites thought that the glories of the temple and the sacrifices that took place there, was the sign that God blessed the people because of their national righteousness. But Jesus now uses the tree to make the point that what is visible and the reality behind it, are two different things. There are leaves, but there is no fruit. There is a temple, a priesthood and sacrifices, there is a Sanhedrin, but there is no sign of true righteousness.

That is a *perfect *explanation.of the Christian understanding of
Jesus cursing the fig tree.

And thank you for conveying the fact that the fig tree was so
often used as a symbol of Israel, by the prophets.
My hat’s off to you, TriuneUnity. A really fine effort. :tiphat:
I do not at all hold that Jesus was a God/man, yet
I respect both scholarship and clarity of expression.
I thought that your post was a model of both.

Best,

reen12

 

[reen12]

i think the creator created life & death both as a part of humanity, and we can start respecting life by learning the meaning of death and its consequences to ourselves, our family, friends, everyone and thing, even our pets.

Oh my goodness, that is well said.

trustme80
striking down a fig tree for not bearing fruit ?
maybe, if we dont have anything good to offer to the world, our existence doesnt have a meaning to anyone.

Need to go make dinner. I do wish to comment on the above
quote, and shall return soonest, to do so.

I’ve enjoyed the exchange, and learned, trustme80.

reen

 

[TriuneUnity]

That is a *perfect *explanation.of the Christian understanding of
Jesus cursing the fig tree.

And thank you for conveying the fact that the fig tree was so
often used as a symbol of Israel, by the prophets.
My hat’s off to you, TriuneUnity. A really fine effort. :tiphat:
I do not at all hold that Jesus was a God/man, yet
I respect both scholarship and clarity of expression.
I thought that your post was a model of both.

Best,

reen12

Well, thank you, reen

 

[blacktiger057]

Islam is the spawn of Satan, and Mohammed is his servant.

No, it is the ignorance in your post that is the spawn of Satan, and is present in all monotheistic religions. This ignorance of us agaisnt them leads to almost all of the bloodshed this world has ever faced, and you are contributing to it by demonizing a group of human beings.

Follow Jesus. Love, don’t judge, forgive!

Peace be with you.

 

[reen12]

striking down a fig tree for not bearing fruit ?
maybe, if we dont have anything good to offer to the world, our existence doesnt have a meaning to anyone.

sometimes we need a “tragedy” to actualy learn something

Yet each human existence is precious to God.
Our mere existence brings Him joy.

God keeps us in life through His intentionality.
We are…literally…‘intended.’
Were God to remove His gaze from us, we would cease to exist.
We ‘mean’ a great deal, to Him. Each breath we take, is His gift.

Reb Zusia, the Hasid - who was much like St. Francis,
considered every breath that he took as a cause for joy.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And Francis of Assisi brought joy to the heart of God,
because he so appreciated and noted each of God’s creatures.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Even if no one else considers what we have to offer, as of value,
we may lift up creation to Him, as did Francis, thanking Him for
the beauty given. And in doing this, we bring the world closer
to Him.

reen

 

[notsmart]

I see TU handled this!

I just wanted to add that one can find this story also in Sirach 44:1
In case anyone wanted another reference in the bible.
I also noted that in Mark and in Matthew the story differs as to when the cursing took place, in one its after the cleansing of the temple (moneychangers) in the other it happens before that.

It is also referenced in Jeremiah 8:13, and a curious mention in Mark 13:28.

I think TU’s explaination is far better than the numerous commentaries I have read so far.

 

[reen12]

I see TU handled this!
…I think TU’s explaination is far better than the numerous commentaries I have read so far.

A perfect explanation, clearly conveyed. I was glad when
I saw that you had read the post.

He handled the explanation beautifully, from a Christian perspective.

Best,

reen

 

[Robert_in_SD]

God, and the things of God, reduced to the patois of
the banking house.
I’m not following your logic here. Are you saying that because the notion of granting pardon for the temporal punishment for sins has been analogized to a treasury of grace, that the Catholic concept of salvation by grace is untenable? Are you simply objecting to the manner in which theologians have studied and attempted to interpret meaning from God’s revelation? Or are you saying that because theologians have attempted detailed explanations of a general concept (“grace”) therefore the general concept must be false. I just am not following you here.

Take a simple example. Without a complete understanding of physics and thermodynamics, I can fold a piece of paper into an airplane and watch it sail across the room with a gentle toss. My capacity for understanding what I witnessed does not negate the efforts of those mathemeticians who struggled to unlock the reasons for why it occurs, nor does it turn their efforts into meaningless pomp. In the same way, Church doctrine does not hinge upon theology.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I can remember thinking, in 1954 [You would have been 8 y.o. by your own bio], that it was odd that everybody before Jesus had to wait around a long time to get to see God. And then I was told that the mother of Jesus was not born in sin, because Jesus saved her from that, before he was born.

First, let me say that your ability to grasp difficult theological concepts at an early age is impressive.

Second, I think you need to spend some time questioning your own conclusions and (perhaps) assumptions. Is it necessarily bad for a person to wait in the “bosom of Abraham” for the consolation of Israel by way of the Messiah?" Were they really waiting a “long time” if in fact one’s afterlife is spent outside of time. What may appear to be a long time for us may have been no time at all if one were outside of time itself … say, if they were in eternity. And, again, is 1,000 years or so a “long” time to wait within the context of an eternity. It seems to me that if one is viewing the concept of eternity, a wait of 1,000 years is not even a “blip” on the temproal radar.
reen:

A picture formed - of the ‘rays’ of grace going backwards. But not way far backwards. Everybody in the waiting place had to wait until their turn came.

I think we all need to wait for our turn. Your concern for those who died prior to the resurrection seems to be imposing some temporal restrictions to a situation that may not be bound by time.

Also, you seem to be imposing a standard of “fairness” on God. That is not the standard. Where, if at all, do these righteous jews have the ability to demand salvation at all from God. Indeed, the graces they received, even if they waited 10,000 years were not earned but an act of mercy and love. There is no injustice at all by waiting for a gift.

Consider the parable of the workers in the field. Some worked all day; while others worked an hour. All received the same pay. Fair? Not by human standards. Just - YES under the law of love.

Peace,
-Robert

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Nickkname]

Oh my goodness, Irene, thank you! Thank you for coming to this forum and setting us Catholics straight!

You have no idea, how many years I have felt this terrible guilt in my soul, gnawing at my heart, begging me to doubt everything I believe because it is lie. But no I persisted in my false beliefs, my blind obedience to the Church, never caring to study the faith or crack open the Bible. So blind and stupid was I that I even dared to go to Confession - oh what horror and evil I committed therein!

But now, Irene, now I have been set free. The truth has set me free. My eyes have been opened, your words had inspired me to seek the truth and I found it and saw that I was in darkness, not the light. Your awesome post has changed my life. The shackles of tyrannical faith have fallen off my body and now I walk out of the dungeon of sin, into the field of love, free, free, free at last! Oh thanks be to the laws of nature that I am free at last!

Thank you, Irene, for your powerful words. Your presence on this forum will be rememebered forever by all of us Catholics. We salute you, good truth-bearer, we salute you with the shackles which have fallen off of us. May you be forever blessed by the laws of nature, Irene, and I’ll keep you forever in my thoughts. Thank you - oh I can’t thank you enough! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Free at last, free at last, thank the laws of nature I’m free at last!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So he destroyed a fig tree - to make a point about faith.

As I said, earlier:

quote: reen12

…contrasting the action of God, with that of Jesus -
vis a vis a living thing.

reen12

Are you trying to say that Jesus could not be God because He cursed the fig tree? Did you not stop to ponder that perhaps Jesus used the fig tree as a teaching tool… to pass along to his disciples the power of faith? Why do you assume the destruction of the fig tree was meaningless? If to prove a point to the disciples, then its destruction held profound meaning.

The other problem I see is your underlying assumption that, apart from God the fig tree had some sort of right to demand continuing existence from its Creator - God. If God wills it, all trees could wither and die in an instant and this would not be unfair. God is the author of life and can measure as He sees fit. God apparently put the fig tree there for the purpose that it fulfilled - to aid Jesus in His teaching.

One final thought… the God of the OT imposed His decree of destruction on more than just a fig tree. Your suggestion that because God used a burning bush to manifest His presence to Moses He was somehow disclosing a nature that would not harm vegetation is ridiculous. He certainly had no trouble drowning the land in flood waters in the time of Noah.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Sometimes, it is the little things that tell one a great deal.

Jesus encounters a fig tree, which is out of season.

Matthew 21:18-22

When he was going back to the city in the morning, he was hungry.
Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went over to it, but found nothing on it except leaves.
And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again.” And immediately the fig tree withered.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/thefigtreeandthebush.jpg

A living plant is destroyed…to make a point.

I contrast this irrational act, with that of the God of Israel -

God speaks with Moses.
The burning bush is not consumed by the flames…

As he looked on, [Moses] was surprised to see that the bush - though on fire,
was not consumed. So Moses decided, “I must go over to look at this remarkable sight,
and see why the bush is not burned.” When the Lord saw him coming over to look at it more
closely, God called out to him from the bush,
“Moses! Moses!” He answered, “Here I am.” [Exodus 3]

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/burningbush2.jpg

The bush remains vibrant with life…and the promise of future growth.

reen12

You have not established that Jesus engaged in an irrational act. Can the Creator of a Fig Tree not cause it to whither to aid in instructing His disciples on the power of faith?

You seem to be operating from a number of unsupported assumptions. The whithering of the fig tree was not irrational. The meaning behind it is made clear in the following verses:

[21] And Jesus answered them, "Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and never doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it will be done. (Mt 21:21)

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

To further highlight the contrast, between Jesus and I AM:

reen12

Entire cities were consumed by God in the OT. And you seek to draw a distinction between the allegedly passive God of the OT and the whithering of a fig tree by Jesus’s command in the NT? Again, I think that your comparison is extremely tenuous.

Another point: The burning bush was the manner by which God revealed Himself to Moses in the desert. The Fig Tree was not the means of God’s manifestation in the NT. Jesus was God in the flesh. And Jesus (unlike the fig tree) did not whither. He produced abundant fruit. You’re missing the point of the writing by comparing the whithering of the fig tree to the manifestation of God’s power in a burning bush.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So he destroyed a fig tree - to make a point about faith.

As I said, earlier:

quote: reen12

…contrasting the action of God, with that of Jesus -
vis a vis a living thing.

reen12

Sodom was filled with living things too. God and Jesus seem pretty consistent to me.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Ignatius]

Irene72:

WHY do Catholics think they have “it” right when it comes to religion?

Hello dear sister Irene, and welcome to Catholic forums.

According to a recent poll, the vast majority (as many as 70%) of Catholics on these fora are converts from Protestantism. Some were even pastors of sizeable congregations. It is because of the Truth that we discovered that we entered The Church that Jesus Christ founded. Starting there, the rest clearly follows.

Irene,

Are you there?

May the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you always.

Your servant in Christ.