"You shall not call anyone Father"

[Turtullian]

BTW: Entering into the record is St. John Chrysostom:

or what says He? “But be not ye called Rabbi.” Then follows the cause also; “For one is your master, and all you are brethren;” Matthew 23:8 and one has nothing more than another, in respect of his knowing nothing from himself. Wherefore Paul also says, “For who is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers?” 1 Corinthians 3:5 He said not masters. And again, “Call not, father,” Matthew 23:9 not that they should not call, but they may know whom they ought to call Father, in the highest sense. For like as the master is not a master principally; so neither is the father. For He is cause of all, both of the masters, and of the fathers.

 

[heisenburg]

Atemi…
I am just going to step in and step out. too busy on other threads

With deep respect…

Suppose there are two pastors, One is a Catholic Priest, who goes by the Title Father Bill, another is a pastor from an fundamentalist evangelical church, he just goes by Pastor Bob. Suppose both live an equally fruitful life in Christ. Both have faith enough to move mountains, always showed the love of Christ in everything they do. Repented of their sins, and followed Christs commandments as much as humanly possible.

In Other words, there is no difference in their faith, and the way they lived their life in Christ.

Upon Judgment, they go before the Just Judge, and knell in eager anticipation of God Adopting them as his own. Obviously, by your own logic thus far, Pastor Bob will have no issues because he lived the life Christ asked him, and had the faith he was suppose to. However, when God looks upon Father Bill, will God say he was sinful and arrogant for taking the title Father? will he say you used the title Father, you Are condemned to hell? Is that a Just Judge? Is condemning a man because of the title he used Just?

Isn’t the Real reason for this verse to reiterate that you should not put anyone above the lord your god, including yourself?

Are you saying that God will be blinded by a Title and not see that this same man was a humble servant?

Isn’t God smart enough to know that a Title doesn’t make the man, but how he lived in Christ?

To take this a step further. Please only respond to your self. Don’t feel the need to relay your response here. Sometimes that urge can cloud what is the right answer.

May you be blessed in your Journey

In Christ

 

[mtr01]

“Protestants”… “Catholics”… “Eastern Orthodox”… “Oriental Orthodox”…are all arbitrary groupings that are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

It is not groups that obey the Lord, but individuals.

Groups will not be there to hold our hand and give an account during Judgment.

Nice sidestep, but those groups are made up of individuals, and are not irrelevant to the topic. However, to humor you, i’ll rephrase the question: are the nearly 2 billion Christians that call their clergy “Father” all wrong, or is Atemi the only one right in all of Christendom?

Face it, we can see through your argument, which was developed no more that 100 years ago by Protestants who wanted to stop being called “Father” because it they wanted to distance themselves from anything that sounded Catholic.

 

[IamOdd4God]

Paul used a spiritual title “father” to refer to himself. By doing so, he violated Christ’s words in call no man father. QED.

The word “father” is a title used to describe the biological male parent of a child…

Genesis 2:4 Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Jesus said “call no man your father” (Matthew 23:9). Was Jesus forbidding us to call our biological parent father? Not at all. When reading Matthew 23:9 in context Jesus is clearly forbidding us to call any man who is a religious leader father.

You people have been quoting 1Corinthians 4:15 to justify yourselves for calling your priest “Father”. Therfore, I have two points I want to make…

1Corinthians 4:15 shows us that the apostle Paul was responsible for the spiritual birth through the preaching of the Gospel. In this sense, Paul was their father.

HOWEVER…

Is there any Scripture where the apostle Paul calls any religious leader father? Or is there any Scripture where anyone calls the apostle Paul father?

What Jesus said then still stands today; we are not to call any religious leader father, because we have one Father, and that is God who is in heaven.

As for Protestants having the title Dr. which is the same as “teacher”? While I was in the Protestant church I never once called my preacher “Dr. Bennett” and all the preachers I have met never once required me to call them “Dr.” so and so.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[paarsurrey]

Well, you could get into the nit-picky parts of that chapter and refute him

Hi

What is the harm in obeying Jesus words?
No need to refute, just cease saying ‘father’ to any priest.

Thanks

 

[mtr01]

What Jesus said then still stands today; we are not to call any religious leader father, because we have one Father, and that is God who is in heaven.

As for Protestants having the title Dr. which is the same as “teacher”? While I was in the Protestant church I never once called my preacher “Dr. Bennett” and all the preachers I have met never once required me to call them “Dr.” so and so.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

Read the article I posted earlier (It’s from a non-Catholic source):

This change clearly influenced Protestant usage. Catholic priests called “Mister” and protestant clergy called “Father” had lived side by side in America. Following the Irish immigrations, however, Protestants began to see the title as redolent of priestcraft and popery.

…]

Nevertheless, as more and more Irish Catholic priests moved into the United States, Protestants began to assert that “Father” was unbiblical. The literalist interpretation of Matthew 23:9 became a standard weapon in the arsenal of anti-Catholicism. “He didn’t like to be called Father,” wrote a minister about a colleague in 19th-century Massachusetts.

“He wanted to be called Brother Jones. He often used to say: Call no man *father *upon the earth”’ (Richard Eddy. *Universalism in Gloucester, Massachusetts *[Gloucester, 1892], p. 98). As a result of this reaction, the 20th century brought generations of American Protestants who knew nothing of ministers addressed as “Father.” [emphasis mine]

Are ‘Mother’ and ‘Father’ Appropriate Titles for Protestant Clergy?

 

[terri_fortner]

You are still ignoring the fact that Christ was specifically and methodically addressing the very real TITLES the religious leaders of His day adopted.

We know clearly from history that NONE of the Apostles ever were addressed by titles such as “Father Paul” or “Father Matthew.”

Yet today we have men that would actually be offended if you didn’t refer to them in such a fashion. I guess the Apostles themsleves can go by just “Peter” or “Paul” but some teachers today think they are deserving of more.

…

How do you know that? Were you there? I am pretty sure when someone writes a letter and says I am your father, they are saying I am your father.

Does that mean we can’t call the teachers in a classroom teachers?

Or how about the fact that becomming a Rabbi was the only education other than that of the parents, from this tiem period. Did that eman that Jesus was against learinging? B/c as someone pointed out that having pastors with Doctorates in a certain field is just like calling them teacher. ‘That is an achademic title’ somone pointed out, butI say that in Jesus time all the titles were “academic” it meant they had been to school and learned these things, and were given a title.

You could even take it a step further and say he meant all titles. ANd he was just using a generalization of the time by saying father and teacher. SO are we to have no Dr. this or Dr. that, or MD, or DDS, or Presidents, or Managers, and all be servents, literally?

Or was he saying we all need ot be servents of God, and follow him, in whatever roll in life he has placed us?

Just my:twocents:

 

[terri_fortner]

Is there any Scripture where the apostle Paul calls any religious leader father?

Yes, all those scriptures where he refers to himself as father.
How many times must we beat this dead horse?

 

[IamOdd4God]

Yes, all those scriptures where he refers to himself as father.
How many times must we beat this dead horse?

Okay you can show where the apostle Paul refers to “HIMSELF” as father, but can you show Scripture that shows where he calls other religious leaders father or where “OTHERS” calls him father? If you can do so, then don’t delay with the proof. If you can’t, just simply say that you can’t. Simple.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Turtullian]

Is there any Scripture where the apostle Paul calls any religious leader father? Or is there any Scripture where anyone calls the apostle Paul father?

No, but there is scripture where St. John calls the bishops and presbyters fathers.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him, who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.

Stephen calls the elders of the Sanhedrin fathers in Acts 7:2, Paul refers to fathers in speaking to Church leaders in Acts 22:1

What Jesus said then still stands today; we are not to call any religious leader father, because we have one Father, and that is God who is in heaven.

So did, Paul sin in acts 22? Did John sin in calling Church leaders father in 1 john or did Stephen sin calling the leaders of the sanhedrin father?

 

[IamOdd4God]

Seeing that the Protestant church emerged from the Catholic church it would only make sense that the Protestant church would hold on to some of the Catholic practices.

What I meant by my statement is that the Protestant preachers I have met and known did not require to be called “Dr.”. Does that mean “ALL” Protestant preachers are the same way? Not at all. For all I know there may be Protestant preachers who require you to call them “Dr.” so-so. If they do, then they are wrong.

There is nothing wrong with being called brother as Jesus said: “Ye are brethren.” (Matthew 23:8). The apostles also referred to followers of Jesus as being brothers (Romans 7:4; 1Thessalonians 2:14 etc.).

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Turtullian]

Also entered into the record is John Gill’s interpretation of Matthew 23:9

And call no man your father upon the earth�
Not but that children may, and should call their natural parents, fathers; and such who have been instrumental in the conversion of souls, may be rightly called by them their spiritual fathers; as servants and scholars also, may call those that are over them, and instruct them, their masters: our Lord does not mean, by any of these expressions, to set aside all names and titles, of natural and civil distinction among men], but only to reject all such names and titles, as are used to signify an authoritative power over men’s consciences, in matters of faith and obedience; in which, God and Christ are only to be attended to. Christ’s sense is, that he would have his disciples not fond of any titles of honour at all; and much less assume an authority over men, as if they were to depend on them, as the founders of the Christian religion, the authors of its doctrines and ordinances; and to take that honour to themselves, which did not belong to them; nor even choose to be called by such names, as would lead people to entertain too high an opinion of them, and take off of their dependence on God the Father, and himself, as these titles the Scribes and Pharisees loved to be called by

, did: and who were called not only by the name of Rabbi, but Abba, “Father”, also: hence we read of Abba Saul, or “Father” Saul F14; Abba Jose ben Jochanan, a man of Jerusalem F15, Abba Chanan F16, Abba Chelphetha, a man of the village of Hananiah F17; Abba Gorion F18, and others; and this name was (ybr wmk dwbk Nwvl) , “a name of honour, even as Rabbi” F19, and of great authority: the wise men are said to be (lkh twba) , “the fathers of all” F20, to whom all gave heed, and upon whom all depended, as so many oracles. There is a whole treatise in their Misna, called Pirke Abot, which contains some of the oracles, and peculiar sayings of these “fathers”, the Misnic doctors, and which are preferred to the writings of Moses, and the prophets. In this sense, and upon this score, our Lord inveighs against them, and cautions his disciples against giving or taking all such titles, in such sense. “For one is your Father, which is in heaven”; who is so, both by creation and adoption, and is possessed of all paternal authority; and is to be honoured and obeyed by all; from whom all wisdom and knowledge is derived, and who has the care and government of all in heaven and in earth.

Note that John gill argues that in his commentary (being a Baptist minister) had argued taht the title of father could be appropriately used for spiritual fathers in the church. I may very well concede that Jesus may have been refering to the titles of the Pharisees but that the titles used by the Pharisees had a different context than fathership of Christian ministers as Chrysostom concludes.

 

[VociMike]

OK, look where we’ve arrived.

Christ says “call no man father (or teacher, or leader).”

But he really only meant in a spiritual leadership context. Because otherwise we’re all breaking his words.

And he really only meant as titles. Because otherwise all those apostles who referred to themselves or other spiritual leaders as father or teacher were breaking his words.

So by taking out all the inconvenient stuff, the Protestant understanding of Christ’s words all boils down to “Catholics, don’t call your priests father”. What great luck. The Protestant understanding, nevermind the clear and universal phrasing that Christ uses, doesn’t condemn them, or the apostles. It only condemns those with whom they are at constant polemical war anyway.

I wonder how many other teachings of Christ we can deconstruct in a similar way. Just look for everything he said around Pharisees and other leaders, and say “those aren’t universal teachings either!” Should prove interesting.

 

[Atemi]

Nice sidestep, but those groups are made up of individuals, and are not irrelevant to the topic. However, to humor you, i’ll rephrase the question: are the nearly 2 billion Christians that call their clergy “Father” all wrong, or is Atemi the only one right in all of Christendom?

What does Christ clearly say?

What I say is of no matter.

If anyone, whether Protestant or Catholic, thinks they are somehow personally exempt from obeying the Lord here then they are on their own.
…

 

[djrakowski]

And yet that noted spirtual leader Paul said “I became your father in Christ Jesus”. According to the new Protestant interpretation (only about 150 years old), that makes no sense either.

AGAIN, he did NOT say call me “Father Paul” which is clearly what Christ was speaking of…And if he wasn’t what then, Mike?

MfM, let me get this straight… Paul makes a claim of spiritual fatherhood, and that’s OK, as long as nobody addresses him as such?

 

[djrakowski]

What does Christ clearly say?

What I say is of no matter.

If anyone, whether Protestant or Catholic, thinks they are somehow personally exempt from obeying the Lord here then they are on their own.
…

This is such a bizarre argument… Paul is permitted to assume the role of spiritual fatherhood, but your personal interpretation claims that we’re not to address him as such?

 

[HailMary]

I love Atemi’s religion:

Religion:
Non-Catholic Christian

haha thats pretty funny.

But I guess it would be more absurd if I said:

“Non-Protestant Christian”

quick question: was Moses your father?
What type of father was St. Paul referring to when he said:

1 Cor 4:15

Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 

[IamOdd4God]

Stephen calls the elders of the Sanhedrin fathers in Acts 7:2, Paul refers to fathers in speaking to Church leaders in Acts 22:1

So did, Paul sin in acts 22? Did John sin in calling Church leaders father in 1 john or did Stephen sin calling the leaders of the sanhedrin father?

Okay, see that wasn’t too hard.

I base my belief on what the Bible says, and if my belief can be proven wrong with Scripture, then I will change my belief according to what the Scripture says. Everyone should be that way, but unfortunately not everyone is that way.

So let’s look at what the Scripture says…

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

…Jesus said we are not to be called Rabbi’s and we are not to be called master. But what about “father”? Read VERY carefully what Jesus says…

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth:

…Jesus didn’t say not to be called father, but rather He said not to call any man “YOUR” father. Of course putting this in context Jesus was referring to religious leaders, and not biological parents.

The title “Father” used in the Catholic church is used to describe the church leaders. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if a person refers to the church leader as being their father, that is when they go against what Jesus said. For example; if Julie says “My Father…” referring to her church leader as being her father, then she would be in the wrong. The proper way for Julie to speak of her church leader would be to say “The father…” or “Father John Doe…”

How close am I to understanding?

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[djrakowski]

I wonder how many other teachings of Christ we can deconstruct in a similar way. Just look for everything he said around Pharisees and other leaders, and say “those aren’t universal teachings either!” Should prove interesting.

You mean, sort-of like the non-Catholics who claim baptism isn’t necessary, even though scripture says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved?

 

[Milliardo]

There is nothing wrong with that. However, if a person refers to the church leader as being their father, that is when they go against what Jesus said. For example; if Julie says “My Father…” referring to her church leader as being her father, then she would be in the wrong. The proper way for Julie to speak of her church leader would be to say “The father…” or “Father John Doe…”

I think you would be quite close. No Catholic I know would say, “My Father so and so”, after all.