You shall not Covet your neighbours Goods

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Practical question on a theological point:

The Bible sets as a moral imperative:
“You shall not covet your neighbours goods”.

My question is: How?

Now this isn’t just desiring and saving up for something you can afford. this becoming fixating of something (or someone)
  • that something is or should be considered beyond your reach
    - due to its unavailability (specific item owned by someone who isn’t offering it for sale)…
    - or unattainable… An Item that is beyond your financial means, and would require undue sacrifices in other important areas or even theft to obtain.
    Depending on translation the commandment not to covet your neighbours Wife is included in the same commandment or in a separate one… but ultimately the thought processes are the same, and can equally be applied to the fixations that many single people can develop (the “unrequited love” fixation). I will focus on the coveting of goods and services rather than the “romantic” coveting of persons here. I do see them as different in how they need to be approached.
*Such covetous desires damage ones finances (when given in to).
  • damage relationships,
    *damage you spiritually…
    *can lead to direct theft in some people…
    *can lead to serious debt and potential financial ruin possibly up to bankruptcy in others… . (and ultimately bankruptsy due to a build up of unaffordable personal debt can constitute theft from the lenders who trusted you with their money… [unscrupulous lending and usury are separate but linked issues])
So here’s the question: how do you repent of such fixations? How does one drive this sin of desire out of ones mind and life? - Especially when it has become typical or habitual for you?
I’m not asking how to be disciplined and not make the purchase… not give in to the covetous desire… I’m asking how to not let yourself get from a stage of liking something:
“That item or service looks nice wouldn’t’ it be nice if I had it?”
to coveting it:
i.e. being unable to drive the desire from your mind. constantly seeking ways of obtaining that thing…
“Where could I get or borrow the money to pay for it?”
"Who can I ask to give it to me? "
“If I do X, Y or Z I can free up cash that can be used to repay a loan for that item…”
“I have an Interest free offer from “W” lender an I use that…”

Your thoughts on this please…
 
Have you read through the Catechism on this? I think it’s very useful. How do we avoid sins of the flesh? The answer lies in our ability to dominate our more base instincts and avoid occasions of sin.
 
Have you read through the Catechism on this? I think it’s very useful. How do we avoid sins of the flesh? The answer lies in our ability to dominate our more base instincts and avoid occasions of sin.
But my question is not about avoiding a sin of the flesh… it is about avoiding a sin of the mind.
 
But my question is not about avoiding a sin of the flesh… it is about avoiding a sin of the mind.
Yes, but as the Catechism explains:
The tenth commandment unfolds and completes the ninth, which is concerned with concupiscence of the flesh. It forbids coveting the goods of another, as the root of theft, robbery, and fraud, which the seventh commandment forbids. “Lust of the eyes” leads to the violence and injustice forbidden by the fifth commandment. Avarice, like fornication, originates in the idolatry prohibited by the first three prescriptions of the Law. The tenth commandment concerns the intentions of the heart; with the ninth, it summarizes all the precepts of the Law.
 
But my question is not about avoiding a sin of the flesh… it is about avoiding a sin of the mind.
Perhaps such sins can be avoided by thinking of things to thank the Lord for, and for asking Him to give you the desire to want the treasures of Heaven, which are everlasting.

Material things are passing away, and we do not take them with us when we die. Storing up treasure in Heaven is the way to go!
 
Envy can take some bizarre forms. If I use my franchise to support government redistribution of other peoples’ money, am I guilty of envy?
How strong is envy? New research from a top economist provides a startling answer. … “We were shocked by how much people were willing to hurt themselves to burn other people’s money, …”
“Losers Take All” twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65679
 
Envy can take some bizarre forms. If I use my franchise to support government redistribution of other peoples’ money, am I guilty of envy?
That’s twisting the original question into a convoluted, political issue on which the Church has clearly stated that there is a wide range of possible opinions and solutions which are morally acceptable. (although full scale Communism is clearly evil, so is pure, unrestricted market based capitalism… the most just paths lie more towards the centre.)

I have not yet read and digested the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the church so I don’t want to go too far…

However, can we please stick to the more personal issue as my initial questions asked. This is an area where I am really struggling. It’s hurting my relationship with God and with my Wife… It is not completely voluntary, I do have ADHD, and the force of a long acquired habit…
due to these effects repenting of this behaviour is very difficult and I need real practical guidance.

I am unable to get the specialist Cognitave Behavioural Therapy or ADHD coaching to deal with these issues therapeutically … my insurance doesn’t cover it. the NHS in my area doesn’t have trained therapists except in the paediatric department and they are not allowed to treat adults. The nearest qualified therapists are a very long distance and I cant afford to pay for the treatments myself… I’ve been prescribed Ritalin and given a apology that the other parts of a full treatment are currently unavailable.
The Ritalin helps me concentrate on a task, and gives some improvement in self control, but doesn’t cure the bad habits built up over a life-time.

I have been better able to pray, and have been praying regularly for an increase in Repentance in my life. While I have gained improvement in some areas, and not in others, I have also become very aware of more and more sinful behaviour from which I need to repent… and much of it, like this issue is not as simple as saying “I wont do that any more”.
Like so many people have experienced: with addictive habits like Procrastination Masturbation or Smoking, there is not always a totally free choice in the individual act, but quitting the habit can be an extremely difficult task.

I am a sinner. my ability to help myself, to repent is pathetically inadequate. It is only by God’s grace that I am called to know and love him. It is only by His Grace that I can take hesitant baby-steps towards him, falling and getting back up.
But He has redeemed me. He calls me to His Salvation. I so want to reach out and take it. but I cannot help but sin again and again… I so want to stop, yet even as I type this I am procrastinating from other work which I should be doing. His Redemption is a freely given Gift which I did not deserve, but His Salvation requires my active co-operation. I must accept it. I must strive for it. I must take up my cross and carry it. I must repent of all my sins.

He is leading me to greater repentance, and showing me some of the tools I need to co-operate with his Grace. Others I am still in the dark about. This is why I ask for your help. Some of you will have faced similar struggles, or seen others go through them. Some of these issues have more than one way to help.
 
P.S.
I’ll be away from computers for the weekend. I’ll probably read your answers on Monday.
 
That’s twisting the original question into a convoluted, political issue on which the Church has clearly stated that there is a wide range of possible opinions and solutions which are morally acceptable. (although full scale Communism is clearly evil, so is pure, unrestricted market based capitalism… the most just paths lie more towards the centre.)

I have not yet read and digested the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the church so I don’t want to go too far…

However, can we please stick to the more personal issue as my initial questions asked. …
You said,
Practical question on a theological point:

The Bible sets as a moral imperative:
“You shall not covet your neighbours goods”.

My question is: How?

Now this isn’t just desiring and saving up for something you can afford. this becoming fixating of something (or someone)
  • that something is or should be considered beyond your reach
    - due to its unavailability (specific item owned by someone who isn’t offering it for sale)…
    - or unattainable… An Item that is beyond your financial means, and would require undue sacrifices in other important areas or even theft to obtain.
A rich man’s wealth fits all these descriptions: I am not as wealthy as he is, so I want to see him brought down. There is nothing I can do about it but support those candidates who promise to stick it to the rich.
Although I didn’t answer “How?”, I did add that envy can take some bizarre forms, i.e., hurting yourself in order to hurt others whose goods you covet. I don’t see how this is outside your OP statement. 🤷

The rest of your post is about coveting your neighbor’s wife, which I did not address. If you are not concerned about coveting your neighbor’s goods, then you should have left out the “goods” part of your question.
 
You said,

The rest of your post is about coveting your neighbor’s wife, which I did not address. If you are not concerned about coveting your neighbor’s goods, then you should have left out the “goods” part of your question.
Really? My original post was so long if fills my screen. it contained one sentence refering to coveting your neighbours wife:
Depending on translation the commandment not to covet your neighbours Wife is included in the same commandment or in a separate one… but ultimately the thought processes are the same, and can equally be applied to the fixations that many single people can develop (the “unrequited love” fixation).
I didn’t dwell on this as
  1. it’s not the problem I’m struggling with at the moment (Thank God for the Graces given in the Sacrament of Marriage), and
  2. it’s a topic that’s dealt with again and again both here and in the family forum.
The intention of the remainder of my post was to discuss the problem of coveting goods…
For me this can become a consuming fixaton. The latest “Must Have” item. I can think of little else than my current fixation, or occasionally fixations.
Currently: My phone contract is due for renewal… I’ve been thinking about which of the latest smart-phones to get as my “Free” upgrade. (the Galaxy SIII or the pending release Galaxy Note 2).
This was not a fixation I’d been particularly bothered with as I had untill yesterday not thought of it as a purchase to be questioned… just a choice of which phone to have and what target discount to try haggling the sales person down to for the monthly contract. - but I’ve still spent hours OOGLING over the Tech Specs of the devices and checking that none of the other manufacturers are likely to come out with offerings that I feel are equivalent for my “needs” and wants.

The second fixation at the moment is wanting a new Guitar. I want a 6-string (steel string) acoustic or electroacoustic guitar. I’m currently the guitarist for weekly prayer meetings. I have an old “beginners” classical that I got 20 years ago in my early teens. It’s not great for playing in public and has some minor faults, plus it’s tuning slips rapidly, and it takes ages to tune (nylon strings change more with temperature and slip more… plus its partly the guitar.) It also has a distinct “Buzz” on one of the strings, which I’ve not been able to fix.
My other guitar is a demonic looking electric. apart from the appearance which draws odd looks in Christian gatherings, (and I’m afraid could be a distraction to some worshipers), It’s totally unsuited to smaller living room type gatherings due to the size of the amp and the time needed to set up. Plus it’s my first electric, and I haven’t yet learned how to best utilize it. My Amp is Huge, and doesn’t do “Quiet” very well…
I had a good steel string acoustic guitar in my teens, but it got stolen when I was a student and I was uninsured at the time. I’ve never found the money to replace it, and now am Coveting a new guitar. I want one that meets specific desires in terms of Quality and in terms of how it sounds. I’ve spent hours trying out guitars in guitar shops… I’ve found what types of guitar I like. I’ve found but missed a couple of 2nd Hand deals on the kind of guitar I would like. I’ve been begging and annoying my wife about the issue trying to get her to agree to such a purchase. trying to bargain with her. - But ultimately: I have 2 guitars already. We can ill afford the kind of guitar I want. - even at 2nd hand prices… and they tend to get sold very fast when they do appear.
We also lack the space in the house to safely protect another guitar.
The Ones I have would be likely to attract very poor trade-in value, (far less than they are worth to keep) and similar electric guitars are going unsold on E-bay or only fetching a pittance.

This is an example of my current fixations and behaviour. 4 months ago it was something different that I spent about 9 months trying to persuade my wife we “needed”… before that it was something else… and my current fixation is likely to stick around for a very long time until satisfied… then something else will take it’s place. (maybe after a couple of months of peace.)

Over the years this behaviour has resulted in my building up enormous levels of debt, and about 8 years ago i was discussing bankruptcy proceedings with a solicitor. (I avoided that, and those debts are now paid off in full, but replaced with others)

Since I got married I have managed to reduce my personal debts from about £50,000 the year I got married, to about £12,000 today - that’s in 4 years… but added another 10,000 of new debt! - That’s meant debt repayments of almost £1000 per month (US$1588 approx). Now my wife is a SAHM, and we don’t have her income, but many of the smaller debts are paid. ~ but that £1000 is more than my wife ever took home after tax!
I’m not counting the mortgage in all that as that’s more equivalent to rent (actually it’s cheaper) and we’re in very modest housing. (actually too small for our growing family and we will need to move this year so my Mother In Law can live with us as soon as she gets out of hospital). (I know those figures allow for very little interest… I’d managed to get a lot of low or 0% deals).

on the Plus side: If I can be disiplined and not increase my debts i could be debt free in 3 years without re-negotiation of existing deals. by diverting funds from completed loans into the outstanding ones it could be quicker than that.
but that’s my logic speaking. It’s an intense burning desire that drives me to spend, using new credit, on things that are “Nice” and I don’t really need. The strength of that urge is frightening, and it’s persistent… I get fixated on things and the fixation can last a year before first it wears down my resistance, and then I wear down my wife’s.

If I didn’t have this problem we could have been debt free, my wife would have the freedom to only work if she wanted to to have an outside occupation. (she worked part time between our kids births)

If I didn’t have this problem, then some of these purchases in the past year might not have needed to cause such consternation, as we would have had much more disposable income (not diverting £12,000 per year into debt repayments). We should have had sufficient savings to have been able to have bought a more suitable house and modify it for my mother-in-law’s needs (provide her with a semi-independent annex). We’ve seen suitable properties and not been able to act due to an inability to borrow due to our current debt levels and lack of cash for a deposit & fees.

So: after that personal exposé of my financial situation and credit history you can see why I ask the question. I need to drive these thoughts from my mind because if I don’t they will eventually win. then the cycle starts again.
While things are hugely better than they were 10 years ago when I was on the verge of bankruptcy, they are far from rosy, and it is the result of my own sinful behaviour.
 
If your not happy with what you’ve got, you’ll never be happy with what you get.🙂
 
Practical question on a theological point:

The Bible sets as a moral imperative:
“You shall not covet your neighbours goods”.

My question is: How?
Having addressed the motivations of material desires in our desire for physical security and in our desire for the esteem of others, St Gregory Palamas goes on to say,
“You can be completely healed from all these things if you become aware of divine glory and long for it while regarding yourself as unworthy of it, and if you patiently endure people’s scorn while thinking you deserve that. In addition, you should esteem God’s glory above your own, in conformity with the Psalmist’s words, “Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory” (Ps 115:2). And should you feel that you have done something praiseworthy, you should attribute it to God, proclaiming Him as its cause and gratefully praising Him, and not yourself, for it. In your rejoicing, you will regard each virtue as a gift, and will not become conceited about it, since it is not your personal achievement; on the contrary, you will grow more humble, and night and day will fix your mental eyes on God, as the eyes of the handmaid - to use the Psalmist’s words again - are fixed on the hands of her mistress (cf. Ps 123:2).”
  • from the Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware translation of the Philokalia, vol. 4, ‘To the Most Reverend Nun Xenia’, section 36 (see also 29-35)
I note that you mention CBT in another comment here, and so should point out that the Philokalia frequently comments upon how to deal with desire, and that much of that discussion involves the utilisation of techniques now recognised as fundamental to CBT: what St Palamas says above is an example of the switch technique, wherein one retrains unhealthy thought processes into focussing upon healthier objects. The collection is a long one, and ought to be read very slowly and very prayerfully, but it could well be of considerable benefit to you. I have not seen it online in English, unfortunately.

Hope that this helps,
M
 
Have you given any thought as to WHY you want these things? What do you seek to achieve by buying them? Not the surface reasons like “I want a new guitar because mine are unsuitable” but why you want the specific things you want. Do you seek a sense of excitement, happiness, or self worth through purchasing these things? These are questions that only you can answer, and may take some deep reflection.
Once you determine what the root reason is for wanting to buy these things, it can help you to find ways to achieve these feelings outside of buying items. Just my :twocents:
 
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