You Shall NOT Kill!

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

“Turn the other cheek”
“Do not resist an evil man”
“Give to him anything else he might need”

These do not tell us that we must submit out lives to those who wish to kill us.

Philosophically speaking, it is not a “black or white” issue. Even exchanging the word “kill” with the word “murder” does not take away the lack of clarity.

I disagree.

Exactly what defines a “murder”?
Is overpopulation a threat to one’s life, thus justifying abortions?
Could you have done less harm and still survived?
Even if convicted in man’s court of being a killer, how is killing him really self defense?

This is where the Principle of Double Effect comes in.

Without clear understanding of the root construct and rationale of the moral, it will always be cloudy and thus always be used by evil to do evil.

Again, I stand by what the Church Teaches in these matters as the Church, by definition, can not Teach error nor lead us to sin.

 

[James_S_Saint]

This is where the Principle of Double Effect comes in.

?? Care to share?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

?? Care to share?

In self-defense the intent is not to kill, it is to stop the individual from killing you. This is how the principle of double effect renders the killing during self-defense from being a moral evil.

As for your exmaples,

Is overpopulation a threat to one’s life, thus justifying abortions?

This would not work with double effect as the intent is to kill the unborn. Overpopulation, IMHO, has never been proven to be a threat to one’s life.

Could you have done less harm and still survived?

I do not see how this could be answered.

Even if convicted in man’s court of being a killer, how is killing him really self defense?

The Church has dealt with this in paragraph 2267 of the Catechism.

 

[Brendan]

I believe it is the Church’s teaching that we are to follow in Jesus Christ’s words and actions.

Correct, and it was Jesus Christ who told the Israelites to go war against the Bashan, and who inspired David to bring his sling against Goliath.

That is the one and same Jesus Christ.

We also read in Ecclesaties where Jesus Christ said that there is are both times to Kill and times to heal ( Ecclesiastes 3). Again, that is the same Jesus Christ.

Do you think that Christ was confused when He gave us both the 5th Commandment AND commanded these other things as well?

Or is there more to it that you think?

 

[simple_soul]

Ok, I can understand this.

First, if you look up the entries from the Catechism you will see that there are references to other Church documents.

I will give you two answers that work for me, one philosophical as that is the forum we are in, the other faith based.

Philosophically I see how the Principle of Double Effect works with self-defense and it is very logical for me.

Regarding Faith, I understand what the Church is saying and no where in Scripture do I find Jesus saying that we are to submit our lives to those who are trying to kill us. I trust the Church who can not Teach error nor lead us into sin.

Dear Br. David,

I was wondering if you could guide me as to where I can go to get the Catechism with the references you are referring to.
Even though I believe I might “philosophically” understand and believe the Principal of Double Effect I do still have to ask. Would this be necessary for us to live by if we were not in a fallen and sinful state?

The other question I have is if Jesus Christ never taught us to not submit our lives to those who are trying to kill us why did He not save Himself from being killed/murdered?

Thank you for your time,

Always praying and pondering,

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Br. David,

I was wondering if you could guide me as to where I can go to get the Catechism with the references you are referring to.
Even though I believe I might “philosophically” understand and believe the Principal of Double Effect I do still have to ask. Would this be necessary for us to live by if we were not in a fallen and sinful state?

The other question I have is if Jesus Christ never taught us to not submit our lives to those who are trying to kill us why did He not save Himself from being killed/murdered?

Thank you for your time,

Always praying and pondering,

If you look up the paragraphs I listed in the Catechism you will see the references.

As for this only being necessary because we are in a fallen state, that is true for everything.

 

[donsnow]

Hi, simple soul -

Actually, so far, it reads to me like you do understand more than you think you do.

Let’s remember in the OT, when Adam and Eve listened to Satan call God a liar, God did not slay them. He exiled them. When Cain slew Abel, He did not slay Cain, He exiled him. Also, under Mosaic law, there were sanctuaries set up throughout Israel. In those days, killing somebody could start a blood fued. So, there were sanctuaries where a murderer could run to, and if he made it into one, the avengers had to let him be safe…it was God’s law. God did not kill the murders and blasphemers. He exiled Cain. God does not murder. Although He gives life and can take it, He has that right because He created it. He is life.
We have not created any life as complex as a mammal or a tree.
I have worked armed as both a cabdriver and security guard. I was licensed by the state to carry a pistol from 2002 to 2006, then I let my Commission to work armed expire. That was the only way to be sure I would not kill in defense of my life or of another life. That’s a terrible responsibility. Both as a cab driver and an armed guard, I have held a sinner’s life in my hand and let him go; following the example of my Savior and the saints.
I have decided that God did not put me here to kill evil people, but to help the good ones and to pray for all. By His sacred grace, although I asked for combat while in the Marines, the Corps kept me stateside to do the job they had trained me to do.
Oh, yeah, “Amazing Grace” is a good song.
In Ecclesiates Chapter 8, we read that there is a time to kill. I disarmed so that time would not come for me to kill. I eventually traded my service revolver for car repairs, earlier this year.

God is love,
Don

 

[simple_soul]

Hi, simple soul -

Actually, so far, it reads to me like you do understand more than you think you do.

Let’s remember in the OT, when Adam and Eve listened to Satan call God a liar, God did not slay them. He exiled them. When Cain slew Abel, He did not slay Cain, He exiled him. Also, under Mosaic law, there were sanctuaries set up throughout Israel. In those days, killing somebody could start a blood fued. So, there were sanctuaries where a murderer could run to, and if he made it into one, the avengers had to let him be safe…it was God’s law. God did not kill the murders and blasphemers. He exiled Cain. God does not murder. Although He gives life and can take it, He has that right because He created it. He is life.
We have not created any life as complex as a mammal or a tree.
I have worked armed as both a cabdriver and security guard. I was licensed by the state to carry a pistol from 2002 to 2006, then I let my Commission to work armed expire. That was the only way to be sure I would not kill in defense of my life or of another life. That’s a terrible responsibility. Both as a cab driver and an armed guard, I have held a sinner’s life in my hand and let him go; following the example of my Savior and the saints.
I have decided that God did not put me here to kill evil people, but to help the good ones and to pray for all. By His sacred grace, although I asked for combat while in the Marines, the Corps kept me stateside to do the job they had trained me to do.
Oh, yeah, “Amazing Grace” is a good song.
In Ecclesiates Chapter 8, we read that there is a time to kill. I disarmed so that time would not come for me to kill. I eventually traded my service revolver for car repairs, earlier this year.

God is love,
Don

Dear Don,

I am trembling as I say this. If I understand more than I think I do and it is TRUTH. I pray that I will find the courage to trust God the way that you have found to trust Him.

Yes God is Love.

Simple soul

 

[simple_soul]

OK so my question still remains. Why is it that after 2000 years or so we still do not seem to get it.

I understand that we are a fallen and sinful people and that it is impossible for us to achieve this perfect example of Jesus Christ. I know that God knows this, that is why He came and dwelt among us and achieved it for us. But, I do not believe this is an excuse for us to not do our part. We are taught to follow in Jesus Christ’s footsteps to our death.

I believe the Church understands God’s Unconditional Love for All Humanity. She understands our free will. She understands that because of our fallen nature God allows “certain evils” to exist.
But, just because the Church teaches us that in our sinful and fallen state we are “justified” to kill under certain circumstances does it make the act good? I do not believe so. ( This is what I am still trying to understand more clearly )

I believe that the reason Jesus Christ is referred to as the Second Adam is because He did what we have such a hard time doing. Commending our spirit into the hands of our Father. Jesus gave us the road map to obtain paradise. This can start before we die. We just have to choose it. From what I understand as long as we keep basing our choices on our fallen nature’s wants and needs we will be always working toward the eternal enslavement of ourselves and all of mankind into eternal sin. When we learn to base our choices on God’s wants and God’s needs one is working toward their eternal salvation and freedom from sin and helps others with their eternal salvation and freedom from sin.

So it is my understanding that until we learn to base our decisions on God’s wants and God’s needs, we will always be having to set-up guidelines for ourselves to live by in our fallen, sinful and self justifying nature.

Understanding this makes me tremble at how Great and Merciful God’s Unconditional Love is for us. He has forgiven us everything even before we take our first baby steps on our journey to Him and His Unconditional Love of All Mankind.

Any further insight on this is most welcome,

Always praying and pondering

 

[donsnow]

Dear Don,

I am trembling as I say this. If I understand more than I think I do and it is TRUTH. I pray that I will find the courage to trust God the way that you have found to trust Him.

Yes God is Love.

Simple soul

Dear simple soul -

Yes, I think that you hold to the TRUTH. Jesus Christ says, “I am the way, the life, the truth and the resurrection.” You hold on to that, and understanding will follow. I have come to think that, “…the way…” refers to love.

Almost a third of my life span was either driving taxi at night or working as a security guard at night. Always I took Christ with me. He is my Good Shepard. As long as I do and try to do his Father’s will, he protects me.

 

[Ender]

Even if convicted in man’s court of being a killer, how is killing him really self defense?

It is not a matter of self defense; it is a matter of justice which is the obligation of the State.

Ender

 

[chaunceygardner]

The original question was about why we try to justify killing? And *“Simple Soul” *is correct; we do that despite what Jesus commands us in the NEW Testament. And He teaches this lesson not once or even twice, but several times in different situations.

For how can one “justify” killing when Jesus says we must “love our neighbor as our self”, and to “do to others what you would have them do to you”?

How can we “justify” killing when Jesus says that we should “turn the other cheek”, and “love your enemy”?

How can we “justify” killing when Jesus tells us that “he who is without sin should cast the first stone”?

How can we “justify” killing when Jesus says that to be His true follower we must go beyond not killing, we should not even be “angry with our brother”?

Why don’t we get it, the OP asks? I think it is because we are human and flawed, and as a result we have a very difficult time accepting what God is telling us. We look for a passage or incident in the Bible (OT especially) to justify our beliefs and our actions, no matter how much they clearly violate God’s commandment. We try to rationalize it (“self-defense”, “just war”) or redefine it (it really means “shall not murder”). If we cannot not live by this commandment, how can we ever live the even more stringent commandment He gave us to not even to be angry with one another?

The OP asks in a later post: “Is the act of killing good, even if justified?” That is an excellent question, and one that we all should think about. One could say that killing in self defense is justified, in order to prevent or stop an aggressor from killing. Yes, that can be justified, and the Catholic Church says so, with conditions. It may not be “wrong”, but is it really “good”?

One can also say that a “just war” is okay, again to stop an evil aggressor. But is it “good”? Do those innocent people who die or suffer terribly in a “just war” really care whether it is just or not? Is it Christian to say: “It’s okay to torture and execute people, destroy their land and take away all their possessions, because you say the cause is good?”

Because we are human and flawed and have a hard time applying the tenets of true Christianity to our own lives, we find ways to justify our failures and rationalize our weaknesses. Unfortunately, when the final tally is made on how well each of us performed as followers of Jesus, you may hear God ask the question that was asked at the start of this thread: What part of “you shall not kill” didn’t you understand? I think THAT would be justified!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The OP asks in a later post: “Is the act of killing good, even if justified?” That is an excellent question, and one that we all should think about. One could say that killing in self defense is justified, in order to prevent or stop an aggressor from killing. Yes, that can be justified, and the Catholic Church says so, with conditions. It may not be “wrong”, but is it really “good”?

Okay correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be implying that self-defense killing is a morally neutral act at best. Regardless, that’s still not enough to condemn it. You said so yourself that it may not be “wrong” even though it’s not “good”. Furthermore, which would you rather choose? To commit an act that is morally neutral such as killing to prevent one from killing or the clearly evil act of allowing such evil to happen?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The original question was about why we try to justify killing? And *“Simple Soul” *is correct; we do that despite what Jesus commands us in the NEW Testament. And He teaches this lesson not once or even twice, but several times in different situations.

But you seem to ignore the case raised where Jesus told his disciples to take up a sword when he sent them out.

Because we are human and flawed and have a hard time applying the tenets of true Christianity to our own lives, we find ways to justify our failures and rationalize our weaknesses. Unfortunately, when the final tally is made on how well each of us performed as followers of Jesus, you may hear God ask the question that was asked at the start of this thread: What part of “you shall not kill” didn’t you understand? I think THAT would be justified!

Again, it is “you shall not kill”, its “you shall not murder”. There is a difference.

Also, while what you say is true we can not believe that it killing in self-defense is an evil that is only allowed because of our fallen nature.

The Church Teaches us that not only is self-defense acceptable, there are times where it is required. The Church can not Teach error (evil) nor can it lead us to sin.

Thats a fact and sometimes we must submit our will to the Church that even though we do not understand why something is the way the Church Teaches it and we feel that it is wrong we must know that this is not the case nor can it be the case.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Okay correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be implying that self-defense killing is a morally neutral act at best. Regardless, that’s still not enough to condemn it. You said so yourself that it may not be “wrong” even though it’s not “good”. Furthermore, which would you rather choose? To commit an act that is morally neutral such as killing to prevent one from killing or the clearly evil act of allowing such evil to happen?

I wasn’t condemning killing in self defense. An action we take may be justifiable, it may be necessary, it may be the only option, BUT that does not make it “good”. (I am using “good” in the sense of always commendable and to be encouraged.) One often can and should regret doing something that is necessary.

In our society we honor those who put themselves at risk to defend and protect others. We honor even more those who give their own lives so that others may live, who make the “the greatest sacrifice”. We are not honoring the fact that they may have had to harm or even kill someone, but that they were responding to a higher call, putting their own lives in jeopardy for the love of others.

My issue is when we go beyond what Jesus taught and how HE lived to justify actions that are neither in self defense nor acceptable within a Christian ethic. I attribute that to our human weakness and our failure to understand and truly accept the Gospel.

We have made killing in a wide range of circumstances “good” in the sense of virtuous and commendable. In other threads, including one that the OP referred to, we have heard from people who seemingly rejoice in the evil of killing (to the point of massacres and genocide) because the “ends” are defined by them as “good”, and as ordained by God. The necessity of self-defense is not a factor, unless you believe killing is necessary to “defend” against a particular ideology or ethnicity.

I don’t think one can equivocate on the message of Jesus. It comes through clearly and often: We are expected to love one another, even our enemy, and treat them as we would want to be treated.

You will note the quote from Einstein below. There have been many people who were not of a Christian faith but who understood and lived by the words of Jesus. Einstein was one; Gandhi was another (“An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind”). I find it fascinating and at the same time disconcerting that so many Catholics and Protestants fail to be as Christian as people of other faiths, or even those with no professed faith. One obvious area in which that occurs is respect for ALL life.

 

[Ender]

My issue is when we go beyond what Jesus taught and how HE lived to justify actions that are neither in self defense nor acceptable within a Christian ethic. I attribute that to our human weakness and our failure to understand and truly accept the Gospel.

And how do we know what Jesus taught? As Catholics, we look to the Church for the authentic explanation of his teachings. If you look to yourself as the primary source then I’m not sure how far the discussion will get if it becomes a disagreement between your personal interpretation and what the Catholic Church teaches.

Ender

 

[simple_soul]

But you seem to ignore the case raised where Jesus told his disciples to take up a sword when he sent them out.

Again, it is “you shall not kill”, its “you shall not murder”. There is a difference.

Also, while what you say is true we can not believe that it killing in self-defense is an evil that is only allowed because of our fallen nature.

The Church Teaches us that not only is self-defense acceptable, there are times where it is required. The Church can not Teach error (evil) nor can it lead us to sin.

Thats a fact and sometimes we must submit our will to the Church that even though we do not understand why something is the way the Church Teaches it and we feel that it is wrong we must know that this is not the case nor can it be the case.

Dear Br. David,

After reading this maybe you could help me understand something I was taught growing up. I was taught that the Church teaches that there are “necessary evils” and that is why it teaches us guidelines about those “necessary evils.”

My question is was I taught incorrectly?

Again thank you for your time and thoughts,

Always praying and pondering

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Br. David,

After reading this maybe you could help me understand something I was taught growing up. I was taught that the Church teaches that there are “necessary evils” and that is why it teaches us guidelines about those “necessary evils.”

My question is was I taught incorrectly?

Again thank you for your time and thoughts,

Always praying and pondering

Can you show me where the Church Teaches this? I have never heard of it.

 

[simple_soul]

And how do we know what Jesus taught? As Catholics, we look to the Church for the authentic explanation of his teachings. If you look to yourself as the primary source then I’m not sure how far the discussion will get if it becomes a disagreement between your personal interpretation and what the Catholic Church teaches.

Ender

Dear Edner,

Could you please elaberate for me as to what the “authentic” teachings of the Church are on what Jesus Christ taught us regarding “you shall not kill”?

Thank you for your time,

Always praying and pondering,

 

[simple_soul]

Can you show me where the Church Teaches this? I have never heard of it.

Dear Br. David,

I do not know where or even if it does. That is why I am asking.
If you do not know the answer I will do a some researching into what I was taught and see if I can find out where this came from and let you know.

Always praying and pondering,