You Shall NOT Kill!

[Lost_Wanderer]

Just all kinds of different sinners, theives, beggars and skeptics. Forgive and pray, so we can be forgiven.

I can forgive. Heck, we all should. However, we are not immortal like God who can have the endless time to wait for us to repent. We must make sure our mercy is not in vain. Sadly, some people really need a good smack to realize that crime doesn’t pay.

I personally would draw the line at killing (as you have).

However, I will be more than willing to hurt my attackers if it means teaching them a lesson.

I admit, sometimes I have a hard time distinguishing between a desire for revenge and simply a desire to prove someone wrong and that crime does indeed pay.

Still, finding a reason to believe in their change has been able to calm me down and let things go. Sadly, there are others though who just won’t learn…

 

[CWBetts]

It doesn’t matter if God owns everything. Stealing is stealing. In case you’ve forgotten, “Thou Shall Not Steal” is also a Commandment.

My issue is less with how valuable my possessions (possessions that me and my family have righteously earned by the way) and more with the fact of someone taking something they did not honestly deserve. I am not some selfish, materialistic Scrooge. I am simply a guy who values an honest way of earning his keep.

Know the difference. I hope you haven’t lost sight of it in your pursuit of your so-called “charity”.

This kind of attachment to things falls under the sin of avarice, which incidentally, is a violation of the same commandment to which you cling. Read your Catechism. It very much DOES matter that God owns everything. He can give and take has He so chooses. Sometimes he will take by way of natural disaster, sometimes by human instrument. Way do you react with so much hate at the suggestion that we need to place less value on things we have now, instead of the eternal?

 

[donsnow]

I can forgive. Heck, we all should. However, we are not immortal like God who can have the endless time to wait for us to repent. We must make sure our mercy is not in vain. Sadly, some people really need a good smack to realize that crime doesn’t pay.

I personally would draw the line at killing (as you have).

However, I will be more than willing to hurt my attackers if it means teaching them a lesson.

I admit, sometimes I have a hard time distinguishing between a desire for revenge and simply a desire to prove someone wrong and that crime does indeed pay.

Still, finding a reason to believe in their change has been able to calm me down and let things go. Sadly, there are others though who just won’t learn…

Oh, yes, we do have the right and duty to defend ourselves. I was lucky my house was burglarized in my absence, and so were the burglars: owned and kept a 12ga pump shotgun all that time, that was never stolen, blessed be God.

This neighborhood is rough. One time, I had two dollars stolen from me at broken bottle point. I pitied the young man, as he ran away waving the two dollars I had thrown at his feet. He was so excited, so joyous, he was hollering over and over, “I got the two dollars!”

Now, when I go to the local convienence store, I walk with a cane…what I consider a ‘low-profile equalizer’. The DI’s taught us about ‘equalizers’ in boot camp

Lost Wanderer, maybe you and the others can profit from something I learned, for when our lives go through rough times. Each time I came home to a broken-into and ransacked house, I first praised God in it and thanked God for it. We are supposed to do that, with all things. It’s all the more pleasant to do that for good things
Next, I told myself each time, “This is a test of my faith.” And tried to keep faith with God, through it all. That could help your attitude and it won’t hurt to do that.
Just thought I’d pass that along.

 

[chaunceygardner]

ByzCath:

Then Capital Punishment is acceptable.

Yes, Capital Punishment is accepted by the Church, Brother David. But with grave conditions and restrictions. And far from encouraged. The same applies to the other areas discussed in this thread: self-defense and “just” wars.

ByzCath:

You can not have it both ways. Either the Church is wrong or it is not. This is not an issue of incomplete understanding.

The incomplete understanding, and the lack of adherence, is by people to the teachings of the Church. My issue is not with the Church’s teaching, it is with the lack of obedience to that teaching.

Ender:

I get the feeling that you think there is a morality over and above what the Church teaches

No, the Church teaches the higher morality, but most people believe and follow a lower morality, not in tune with what the Church teaches.

Ender:

…essentially the Church is giving us minimum standards but that we’re actually called to much more. Is this what you’re saying?

No again, just the opposite. The Church is giving us higher standards than we are willing to accept, so we claim that the Church really isn’t expecting us to do what it clearly asks of us.

I will use the teaching of the Church regarding capital punishment, but the same points can easily be made about war, self defense and any other manner of killing. We have already discussed what the Catechism says about this, so let’s look at what Pope John Paul II said in Evangelium Vitae. I recommend that you read the whole document. I will focus on what the Church expects of us in following the 5th Commandment, using capital punishment as the example. (all underlining is mine)

From Par. 54, the Pope says:

the precept “You shall not kill” is strongly negative: it indicates the extreme limit which can never be exceeded. Implicitly, however, it encourages a positive attitude of absolute respect for life;…… , the words of the Apostle John have a categorical ring: “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 Jn 3:15).

So, not only must we avoid killing, but we must understand two other things: 1) Even anger, hatred and holding a grudge will be treated like killing by God! And 2) Not only must we avoid killing, but we must have absolute respect for all human life! Both of these go beyond the basic commandment to not kill and take us to a whole higher level. Do we truly grasp what this means?

At the beginning of Par. 55, JP II says:

to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life!

Aren’t we usurping the role of God when we make life or death decisions? Who here is without sin to cast the first stone, who among us is as wise and all knowing as God?

The Church places very strict limits on how often killing should occur, which is basically only when absolutely necessary. From the end of Par. 55 and the beginning of Par. 56:

Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life.

This is the context in which to place the problem of the death penalty. On this matter there is a growing tendency, both in the Church and in civil society, to demand that it be applied in a very limited way or even that it be abolished completely.

…the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

So the Church’s teaching is that the less it is used the better, and abolishing it all together would be the ideal. So do your personal beliefs comply with those of your Church? That is where I see the problem.

So, to again respond to Ender, I DO NOT believe the Church follows a minimum standard; I think the Church maintains a VERY HIGH STANDARD, and expects us to also do the same. But people look for ways around that standard, ways to avoid having to live up to that standard, excuses for not abiding by the teachings of THEIR OWN CHURCH. Some of you say you “follow the teaching of the Church”, but do you really?; and that “capital punishment is acceptable”, but acceptable does not mean advocated or encouraged. The Church obviously and clearly discourages its use, and places limits on when killing of any kind is acceptable, as it rightly should if it is to be true to the Gospel of Jesus.

And my response to the OP’s original question of “What don’t we get about the commandment You Shall Not Kill", is simply: “Most of it”. People in general DON’T want to believe what the Church teaches them, and cannot live up to the High Standard that is expected of them. They are thinking like flawed human beings, and not anything like the way God thinks.

If after way too many posts this is not clear, I apologize for not doing a better job of expressing myself. I have done all I can do on this thread, and hope that those who have viewed it will come to a deeper understanding of what Jesus and the Church commands us to do, and try to live up to that ideal.

 

[catholicsuffer]

What in the world are you talking about. I am talking about those so blind to think that the death penalty is a first recourse. What you describe is not defending oneself in just war. Now calm down. I never bad-mouthed the Holy Spirit. I would never do such a thing. If I made you mad because I espouse charity and mercy over vengeance and blood lust, so be it.

You have not espouse charity or mercy. You are making accusations against those who defends their self as if they are the evil-doers instead. I live in an environment today because of the judgmental people like you. An environment where the drug dealers, drug users, liars, perverts and thieves almost always wins. Liberal Catholics are the reasons for sexually abusive priests, men attending mass with ear rings in their ears, and the general defilement that the Catholic Church in the USA today. When I first started getting very interested in the Roman Catholic Church, I seen every day nothing but what I thought the Church being attack, little did I know at that time, there sins was being expose because they were not cleaning out people such as you. I only hope and pray that if the day comes which I do join the Catholic Church that I do not have a mind-set like yours and take my first communion unworthily.

 

[CWBetts]

You have not espouse charity or mercy. You are making accusations against those who defends their self as if they are the evil-doers instead. I live in an environment today because of the judgmental people like you. An environment where the drug dealers, drug users, liars, perverts and thieves almost always wins. Liberal Catholics are the reasons for sexually abusive priests, men attending mass with ear rings in their ears, and the general defilement that the Catholic Church in the USA today. When I first started getting very interested in the Roman Catholic Church, I seen every day nothing but what I thought the Church being attack, little did I know at that time, there sins was being expose because they were not cleaning out people such as you. I only hope and pray that if the day comes which I do join the Catholic Church that I do not have a mind-set like yours and take my first communion unworthily.

My mind set is that every single human life has value. We are all created in the image and likeness of God. Furthermore, all of creation is good. This must be so because God is pure good, and does not create evil. In fact evil is the absence of good, as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light. Because all that God creates is good, then even the most vile criminal is good by virtue of the fact that he has been created by God. If there was no good in him at all, he would cease to exist. Moreover, we do not have the right yo destroy that which was created by another. Only God can do that. It is not the will of God to have His creation destroyed. And what purpose does execution serve? As stated by many here, it is what they term “justice” but what they mean is “retribution”. And as far as the personal attack, I forgive you. You know nothing of me or of my personal walk with God. I pray that you join the Church, and come to understand Her true teachings on capital punishment, which she strongly discourages, even to the point of saying that in developed countries that it is need vary rarely, if ever.

 

[Ender]

From Par. 54, the Pope says:

the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society.

Evangelium Vitae (esp #56) is the basis for 2267 in the Catechism; they say essentially the same thing. 2267 was reworked in the 1997 revision to reflect this encyclical.

Look at the wording of the section on capital punishment (2267) * “public authority should limit itself to such means”* and compare it with the section regarding abortion (2270): “Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.” While the second is an absolute command the first is not; it is a recommendation.

So do your personal beliefs comply with those of your Church?

I’ll say this yet again: my beliefs are those of the Church. For every claim I have made I have provided a citation from a Church document to support it. I have in no instance given my personal interpretation of any passage of Scripture. Where we disagree is over whether or not 2267 constitutes a teaching of the Church and I claim it does not; that it is the opinion of JPII and does not rise to the level of Church doctrine.

Ender

 

[catholicsuffer]

My mind set is that every single human life has value. We are all created in the image and likeness of God. Furthermore, all of creation is good. This must be so because God is pure good, and does not create evil. In fact evil is the absence of good, as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light. Because all that God creates is good, then even the most vile criminal is good by virtue of the fact that he has been created by God. If there was no good in him at all, he would cease to exist. Moreover, we do not have the right yo destroy that which was created by another. Only God can do that. It is not the will of God to have His creation destroyed. And what purpose does execution serve? As stated by many here, it is what they term “justice” but what they mean is “retribution”. And as far as the personal attack, I forgive you. You know nothing of me or of my personal walk with God. I pray that you join the Church, and come to understand Her true teachings on capital punishment, which she strongly discourages, even to the point of saying that in developed countries that it is need vary rarely, if ever.

I have judge you by your own words. I do not need or seek your forgiveness. You have insulted the Holy Spirit and thus it is you who needs forgiveness and not me. As far as your walk with God goes, many will say Lord, Lord but he(Jesus) will say, “I know you not”. You Hypocrite, you judge others but refuse to judge yourself. As far as death penalty goes, obviously, when this country has become so immoral that you can not even watch a television show without hearing homosexual dialog then the bad guys are winning and it is directly because of people such as you. We need harsher punishment not less of it, least God commands his Angels to pour out wrath upon us.

 

[CWBetts]

I have judge you by your own words. I do not need or seek your forgiveness. You have insulted the Holy Spirit and thus it is you who needs forgiveness and not me. As far as your walk with God goes, many will say Lord, Lord but he(Jesus) will say, “I know you not”. You Hypocrite, you judge others but refuse to judge yourself. As far as death penalty goes, obviously, when this country has become so immoral that you can not even watch a television show without hearing homosexual dialog then the bad guys are winning and it is directly because of people such as you. We need harsher punishment not less of it, least God commands his Angels to pour out wrath upon us.

I have not insulted the Holy Spirit. If I have, show the post. I have not insulted you, but you have insulted me. If I have insulted you, show the post. I have argued that we do not have the right to destroy God’s creation. I have argued that as sinners, we do not have th right to pass judgment on other sinners. Who have I judged? No one. You, my friend are very angry, for some reason, and you resort to personal attacks. I must ask why. And why do you feel that you have the right to declare another’s worthiness to receive the Lord, especially since you have never met me? Why is forgiveness a sin?

 

[donsnow]

Evangelium Vitae (esp #56) is the basis for 2267 in the Catechism; they say essentially the same thing. 2267 was reworked in the 1997 revision to reflect this encyclical.

Where we disagree is over whether or not 2267 constitutes a teaching of the Church and I claim it does not; that it is the opinion of JPII and does not rise to the level of Church doctrine.

Ender

Hi, Ender -

I respectfully submit, since 2267 can be read in the CCC, that it is indeed a teaching of the Church, and not the private opinion of any pope.

 

[MrZetterlund]

One word;

Clarity

Imagine if Jesus had not been clear to Simon or any of His disciples. Would He have had any? What if He had not been clear to the blind man? Would the blind man do the right things so as to gain his sight? Jesus was remarkable at being clear, and thus He succeeded at His assignment. Without clarity, doubt reigns in place of Faith.

Look at that commandment;

"Thou Shalt Not Kill"

Shalt not kill what? Shalt not kill whom? Nothing at all? How are we to eat?

“Oh, He must have meant…”

Do not kill the innocent? Anyone? Under ANY circumstance?

“Oh, He must have meant…”

Doubt, suspicion, and distrust reign by the lack of clarity. Read my signature. Everything Man does (any man) that leaves any part of that out, spawns doubt, suspicion, distrust, and eventual sin. But how clear is that message? Why would you believe it and not doubt?

Jesus made it as clear as could be done at that time. He was accepted to the degree that such times allowed. But His time was short. Clarity faded as doubt moved in. Now Man’s time is short.

Increase Clarity and you increase Faith.

Actually, the commandment is “you shall not murder.” Murder is to lawlessly kill someone. According to scripture, it is unlawful to take the life of an unborn child.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, Capital Punishment is accepted by the Church, Brother David. But with grave conditions and restrictions. And far from encouraged. The same applies to the other areas discussed in this thread: self-defense and “just” wars.

The incomplete understanding, and the lack of adherence, is by people to the teachings of the Church. My issue is not with the Church’s teaching, it is with the lack of obedience to that teaching.

Thank you. Now may I ask for an apology for the accusation that I was trying to entrap you.

Now I fully understand your thinking regarding this and I see that we agree very much on these issues except for your use of “incomplete understanding”. Incomplete understanding is not used in the manner you use it here. It is not applied to the people and there lack of adherence to the Teachings of the Church, the proper pharse would be in that they do not have a “well-formed conscience” something which they should have. The section in the Catechism on this, paragraphs 1776 through 1802, might be a good read here.

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, CWBetts and catholic suffer -

If you folks will allow me to step in, here? I checked with simple soul, and she said it’s OK if I try to put some oil on your troubled waters.

If ya’ll could leave personal accusations and demands out of your conversation, you could communicate in more Catholic charity.
I’ve been following your posts, and they appear to be getting heated up. When you reply to each other, how about first stepping away from computer after you read the other’s post? Cool down.
It’s not seemly, for the members of the mystical Body of Christ to quarrel with each other, OK?

 

[catholicsuffer]

Hi, Ender -

I respectfully submit, since 2267 can be read in the CCC, that it is indeed a teaching of the Church, and not the private opinion of any pope.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/prologue.htm#II

V. PRACTICAL DIRECTIONS FOR USING THIS CATECHISM

18 This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole

I was also looking to see where it is the opinion of a pope and could not find it anywhere in the prologue of the catechism. Perhaps we can get a bit of clarity of what Ender meant.

 

[CWBetts]

Good morning, CWBetts and catholic suffer -

If you folks will allow me to step in, here? I checked with simple soul, and she said it’s OK if I try to put some oil on your troubled waters.

If ya’ll could leave personal accusations and demands out of your conversation, you could communicate in more Catholic charity.
I’ve been following your posts, and they appear to be getting heated up. When you reply to each other, how about first stepping away from computer after you read the other’s post? Cool down.
It’s not seemly, for the members of the mystical Body of Christ to quarrel with each other, OK?

I honestly do not know how he became so infuriated…

 

[donsnow]

vatican.va/archive/catechism/prologue.htm#II

V. PRACTICAL DIRECTIONS FOR USING THIS CATECHISM

18 This catechism is conceived as an organic presentation of the Catholic faith in its entirety. It should be seen therefore as a unified whole

I was also looking to see where it is the opinion of a pope and could not find it anywhere in the prologue of the catechism. Perhaps we can get a bit of clarity of what Ender meant.

Perhaps Ender could do that.

I appreciate your effort in calming down. Thanks.

 

[donsnow]

Well, I’ve got some things to do and some places to go. So, I’m going to release my one phone line from this modem, and leave my answering machine available, while I’m out and about.

Be back tomorrow, if not this evening.

 

[donsnow]

I honestly do not know how he became so infuriated…

I’m not here to judge either of you. Thanks for your response and for acknowledging my effort to calm things down.

Now, I’m going off-line until either this evening or tomorrow.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Thank you. Now may I ask for an apology for the accusation that I was trying to entrap you.

You’ve got it.

Now I fully understand your thinking regarding this and I see that we agree very much on these issues except for your use of “incomplete understanding”. Incomplete understanding is not used in the manner you use it here. It is not applied to the people and there lack of adherence to the Teachings of the Church, the proper pharse would be in that they do not have a “well-formed conscience” something which they should have. The section in the Catechism on this, paragraphs 1776 through 1802, might be a good read here.

I knew we weren’t far apart in this. We just had a different understanding of the term “incomplete understanding.” I am admittedly not as versed in church terminology as you, and would have used the “well-formed conscience” term to make my point clear, if I had but known. So it seems that a LOT of people out there don’t have the “well-formed consciences” that Jesus expects us to have with regard to respect for human life. Why do you suppose that is? Is it failure on the part of parents, our society, the churches, faith instructors? A combination?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You’ve got it.

Thank you.

I knew we weren’t far apart in this. We just had a different understanding of the term “incomplete understanding.” I am admittedly not as versed in church terminology as you, and would have used the “well-formed conscience” term to make my point clear, if I had but known. So it seems that a LOT of people out there don’t have the “well-formed consciences” that Jesus expects us to have with regard to respect for human life. Why do you suppose that is? Is it failure on the part of parents, our society, the churches, faith instructors? A combination?

I think the answer is yes.

It is a failure on all of those. Many parents seem to have a hard time saying “No” and seem to think that their child’s self-esteem is everything. Both of those seem to be reinforced by society which is rampant with moral relativism. The Church has failed in its catechesis and by the Church I mean those entrusted to teach the faith.