"You think you know better!"

[Rico_S]

… Through scripture and reason.

How can both you and the Church come up with different conclusions when you are both using scripture and logic to arrive at those conclusions? How do I know that your opinion is truly representative of the universal moral code and not the church’s?

 

[tjm190]

How can both you and the Church come up with different conclusions when you are both using scripture and logic to arrive at those conclusions? How do I know that your opinion is truly representative of the universal moral code and not the church’s?

1. It happens with everything
2. Through discussion and debate

 

[tjm190]

Okay, but please explain further. Not just about contraception, but about the actions that seek to separate sex from pro-creation. Do you think sex is morally neutral?

I’d rather not make this thread any more of a continuation of the last one- the discussion we had there seemed sufficient anyway.

 

[Rico_S]

1. Through discussion and debate

I understand that you have reached the conclusion you have through discussion and debate on this issue. I will grant you that you take your position, not b/c you lack of understanding of the church’s position, but b/c you have a thorough understanding of the issue and flat out reject the Church’s conclusion. That is reasonable. But I fail to see how you are confident that you hold the universal truth in this matter simply b/c YOU have reached this conclusion based on YOUR disucssions and debates on the issue when others will have this same disscussion and debate and come to the same conclusion as the Church.

 

[gardenswithkids]

If questioning whether or not something is morally wrong or not necessitates confession then I can not honestly ask for absolution.

Now I’m pretty sure you have confused disagreement with a lack of understanding.

To question something implies you look for answers. If you think you already have the answer, then you are no longer questioning.

It seems to me you are simple questioning rather than all-out dissenting with this issue, so I presume that the problem is lack of understanding as your question has not yet been answered to your satisfaction. You have yet to demonstrate to me that you fully understand the Church teachings in matters of sexuality and how those teachings relates to other aspects of Church teachings as well. You may disagree with a part, but I suspect that is because you do not understand the full.

Does this “neccesitate” confession? I don’t know. I prefer not to wait to go to confession until it’s neccesary. Sort of like bathing and personal hygiene–sometimes I may “need” a shower, but I’d rather shower on a regular basis before it’s obvious to everyone around me that I need it.

 

[tjm190]

To question something implies you look for answers. If you think you already have the answer, then you are no longer questioning.

Because when you begin to question something, you do so with the understanding that something can not remain “questionable” forever- depending on what you receive through your queries, you will, eventually, either reject or resume acceptance.

It seems to me you simple questioning rather than all-out dissenting with this issue, so I presume that the problem is lack of understanding as your question has not yet been answered to your satisfaction. You have yet to demonstrate to me that you fully understand the Church teachings in matters of sexuality and how those teachings relates to other aspects of Church teachings as well. You may disagree with a part, but I suspect that is because you do not understand the full.

I suppose that is a possible way to describe the situation should we assume your correctness.

Does this “neccesitate” confession? I don’t know. I prefer not to wait to go to confession until it’s neccesary. Sort of like bathing and personal hygiene–sometimes I may “need” a shower, but I’d rather shower on a regular basis before it’s obvious to everyone around me that I need it.

Again, I can not honestly ask for absolution for believing Church teachings are not infallible.

 

[allhers]

To question something implies you look for answers. If you think you already have the answer, then you are no longer questioning.

It seems to me you are simple questioning rather than all-out dissenting with this issue, so I presume that the problem is lack of understanding as your question has not yet been answered to your satisfaction. You have yet to demonstrate to me that you fully understand the Church teachings in matters of sexuality and how those teachings relates to other aspects of Church teachings as well. You may disagree with a part, but I suspect that is because you do not understand the full.

Does this “neccesitate” confession? I don’t know. I prefer not to wait to go to confession until it’s neccesary. Sort of like bathing and personal hygiene–sometimes I may “need” a shower, but I’d rather shower on a regular basis before it’s obvious to everyone around me that I need it.

…and its pretty obvious that the OP is in need.

 

[tjm190]

I understand that you have reached the conclusion you have through discussion and debate on this issue. I will grant you that you take your position, not b/c you lack of understanding of the church’s position, but b/c you have a thorough understanding of the issue and flat out reject the Church’s conclusion. That is reasonable. But I fail to see how you are confident that you hold the universal truth in this matter simply b/c YOU have reached this conclusion based on YOUR disucssions and debates on the issue when others will have this same disscussion and debate and come to the same conclusion as the Church.

My conclusions are the best approximates I have for the universal moral code. I haven’t declared myself infallible, so I understand that I have the capacity to come to error.

 

[PapaSquash]

Labels don’t get is anywhere. I believe Church teachings are not beyond question- if that makes me a heretic, bad Catholic, infidel, in your mind you are welcome to refer to me in those terms.

Well then, is it OK if someone refers to you as somebody who thinks they know better?

The discussion here is not whether you are right or wrong. It’s is whether you have greater trust your own intellect and the conclusions you can draw over the course of the few years you have here on earth, over the millenia-accumulated wisdom of legions of Phd’s, bishops, saints, and the Spirit-directed tradition of Jesus’s Church on earth.
(in other words do you think you know better)

I don’t doubt you are sincere. I was sincere when I was where you are, but I did learn that I can see farther standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Tosk]

In your own estimation how smart are you? To be able to read, understand, and then refute all the arguments against contraception of the various philosophers and theologians in the Church is quite an accomplishment. Especially considering you say you did all of this using your own original thinking without referencing any outside authority. Not saying it is impossible, but it is like someone claiming that they arrived at the general theory of relativity on their own after completing basic classes in math and physics.

 

[tjm190]

Well then, is it OK if someone refers to you as somebody who thinks they know better?

The discussion here is not whether you are right or wrong. It’s is whether you have greater trust your own intellect and the conclusions you can draw over the course of the few years you have here on earth, over the millenia-accumulated wisdom of legions of Phd’s, bishops, saints, and the Spirit-directed tradition of Jesus’s Church on earth.
(in other words do you think you know better)

I don’t doubt you are sincere. I was sincere when I was where you are, but I did learn that I can see farther standing on the shoulders of giants.

Everyone should have 100% trust in their own intellect- even with Cartesian skepticism, your intellect is trusted.
This does not mean we should immediately reject everything that we do not arrive at on our own. We can expose our intellect’s conclusions to the wisdom of legions of Phd’s, bishops, saints, and the Spirit-directed tradition of Jesus’s Church on earth and see how things stack up. If those conclusions were truly better than those the individual reaches, then discussion will show it.

 

[tjm190]

In your own estimation how smart are you? To be able to read, understand, and then refute all the arguments against contraception of the various philosophers and theologians in the Church is quite an accomplishment. Especially considering you say you did all of this using your own original thinking without referencing any outside authority. Not saying it is impossible, but it is like someone claiming that they arrived at the general theory of relativity on their own after completing basic classes in math and physics.

It’s not at all the same: it does not take a mind of Einstein’s prowess to form an opinion and either accept or reject any given argument- any mind will do.

 

[PapaSquash]

It’s not at all the same: it does not take a mind of Einstein’s prowess to form an opinion and either accept or reject any given argument- any mind will do.

Any mind will do as long as it only has to answer to itself.

 

[tjm190]

Any mind will do as long as it only has to answer to itself.

Hmmm… so despite all this talk of how opinions formed through debate and discussion are valid, you choose to simply cut through the red tape and assert your own correctness on this point. I admire your resolve.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I saw this thread when there were about seven posts on it, and came back to it a little later when there were over 40. TJM190 stirred up something.

One issue that we have to deal with here is terminology. Some of the words being used are highly “charged’. TJM talks about “rejecting”, or “dissenting”, while others may use less “in your face” words like “doubting”, “questioning” or “understanding”. I can appreciate where TJM is coming from, as I question just about everything. Then I try to find the answers and develop a better understanding. It is a fascinating and life long quest.

To assume that a person must have a church tell them what to believe or explain everything is not really supported in the Gospels. There are many instances of Jesus pointing out people with strong faith and an understanding of His message, who were not of His “flock”. They apparently didn’t have someone else feeding them doctrine; rather, they relied on their own reasoning powers (perhaps with a poke from the Holy Spirit) to correctly decipher the meaning of Jesus’ message. In fact, Jesus often points out that these people truly understood Him and his purpose better than the learned Pharisees and temple priests did, and even more than his own disciples did.

I am not saying that we should throw out church doctrines and teachings. I am saying that each person can use these, plus their own life and faith experiences, to develop a personal understanding of God (starting to sound suspiciously Protestant, isn’t it?)

There are many people who doubt, question, or don’t understand doctrines and teachings of the church. They still show up on Sunday, participate in the sacraments, and consider themselves good Catholics. Unless they voice their doubts or questions, they will appear to be like everyone else.

I think there is a great disconnect in this area because, to many people, most of it is not important. Believing in Jesus, paticipating in the Mass, receiving the sacraments, following the ten commandments and the Beatitudes are about it. Much of the rest does not play a big part in their daily lives or their faith life.

Catholics have also made their own decisions about some doctrine by ignoring them. The biggest and best example is contraception. Anyone who has been around for a long time can easily see the difference between Catholic families of the 1950’s vs. the families of today. You just don’t see very many with more than four children. If all those who did not follow church doctrine regarding this issue stopped coming to church, we could hold Mass in the cry room (the lack of those today is another reminder of how much has changed).

I like what Langdell ( post #33) said about understanding why you may question something, and being open to the Holy Spirit. He/she also talks about the risk one takes from rejecting or straying from the teachings of the Church. Very good observations and excellent questions to ask oneself. And yes, there is a risk in questioning and doubting, but to some of us it is a risk worth taking. It could actually result in an increase of our faith.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Because when you begin to question something, you do so with the understanding that something can not remain “questionable” forever- depending on what you receive through your queries, you will, eventually, either reject or resume acceptance…

But sometimes we question something, arrive at a conclusion based on what we’ve heard so far and then year later learn something that changes our understanding completely. Been there, done that on this very issue.

…Again, I can not honestly ask for absolution for believing Church teachings are not infallible.

Okay, but I still suggest you go to Confession on a regular basis for whatever sins you may have on your conscience. As I wrote, sin blocks the intellect. Few of us above the age of reason can go for very long without sinning in one way or another. Regular Confession is a good habit for any Catholic to develop.

A thought occurred to me. Right now the focus of this thread seems to be on what you don’t agree with–and I understand that butsomething or Someone keeps you Catholic. What devotions and teachings attract you to the Catholic Church? Any devotions to the Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, any particular saints or the saints in general? Any particular prayers that move you spiritually? How about the Sacraments? Writings by the Saints and Doctors of the Church? (You don’t have to answer that here.) I strongly encourage you not only question (which is okay) but to develop a deeper prayer life and come to understand other teachings more thouroughly through prayer and reflection. There’s so much to learn! The Church teaching all fit together so that by growing in understanding in one area, you grow in understanding of other areas. But while knowledge and understanding are good and noble, ultimately our goal is to love God more perfectly and to achieve holiness through His grace.

 

[Tosk]

It’s not at all the same: it does not take a mind of Einstein’s prowess to form an opinion and either accept or reject any given argument- any mind will do.

as the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not everyone is entitled to their own facts. Not everyone’s opinion on the modern synthesis of evolution, or string theory, or the morality of ABC is equally valid. For all of those things you have to rely on some authority to derive an opinion.

 

[tjm190]

But sometimes we question something, arrive at a conclusion based on what we’ve heard so far and then year later learn something that changes our understanding completely. Been there, done that on this very issue.

Well since I don’t claim infallibility, I do not reject the possibility that my beliefs may change.

Okay, but I still suggest you go to Confession on a regular basis for whatever sins you may have on your conscience. As I wrote, sin blocks the intellect. Few of us above the age of reason can go for very long without sinning in one way or another. Regular Confession is a good habit for any Catholic to develop.

A thought occurred to me. Right now the focus of this thread seems to be on what you don’t agree with–and I understand that butsomething or Someone keeps you Catholic. What devotions and teachings attract you to the Catholic Church? Any devotions to the Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy, any particular saints or the saints in general? Any particular prayers that move you spiritually? How about the Sacraments? Writings by the Saints and Doctors of the Church? (You don’t have to answer that here.) I strongly encourage you not only question (which is okay) but to develop a deeper prayer life and come to understand other teachings more thouroughly through prayer and reflection. There’s so much to learn! The Church teaching all fit together so that by growing in understanding in one area, you grow in understanding of other areas. But while knowledge and understanding are good and noble, ultimately our goal is to love God more perfectly and to achieve holiness through His grace.

For a great myriad of reasons I believe the Church to be the best representation of God’s will on Earth, which is of course why I identify as a Catholic.

 

[tjm190]

as the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not everyone is entitled to their own facts. Not everyone’s opinion on the modern synthesis of evolution, or string theory, or the morality of ABC is equally valid. For all of those things you have to rely on some authority to derive an opinion.

No, if you have the facts you are just as entitled to form an opinion as everyone else- but to test it’s validity you have to expose it to criticism. You do never need authority to form an opinion- that’s just easy mode. (Btw, String Theory is ridiculous,albeit interesting, speculation, I wouldn’t recommend spending too much time on )

 

[PapaSquash]

Everyone should have 100% trust in their own intellect- even with Cartesian skepticism, your intellect is trusted.
This does not mean we should immediately reject everything that we do not arrive at on our own. We can expose our intellect’s conclusions to the wisdom of legions of Phd’s, bishops, saints, and the Spirit-directed tradition of Jesus’s Church on earth and see how things stack up. If those conclusions were truly better than those the individual reaches, then discussion will show it.

We should 100% trust our own thinking? Because everybody knows that they don’t bring any pre-conceived notions, rationalizations, attachments to sin, prejudices, addictions, personal preferences, justifications or moral blind-spots into the excercise of deciding what behavior is best.

But in the end your way all boils down to: the individual gets to decide.
If I say that by the light of my intellect, I have seen nothing that shows any dissident conclusions are better than the traditional magesterial teachings of the Church, I will go with those conclusions that have been tried and tested and measured against all the novelties that have cropped up over the centuries. But If I prefer my own way - that’s OK too. It’s just a cooincidence that my way happens to go with the flow of modern thinking - really, it is.

A pretty good way of summing this up is: “You think you know better”

It need not be a condemnation - it sounds like a statement of fact. You do indeed think you know better, and that we are all just mindless sheep following the dictates of Rome becasue we can’t be bothered to fire up our own intellectual jet-packs.

After all you think your way is right don’t you?