"You think you know better!"

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tjm190 said:
…the power to change Church doctrine? There is a process in place for this, no?
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Church doctrine has never changed. Not once, not since the sole of Jesus foot was on the earth til this second in time. No change. Ever.
 
tjm190 said:
By being elected Pope/appointed Bishop/being there when during an Ecumenical Council or whenever Catechisms get written.
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OK, so I don’t get what you don’t believe.

You say the Pope has the power to create doctrine, or pass judgment on it, but yet you don’t think his inspiration is infallible…

Is it because you don’t believe the him to be inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Or, because of your experience or feeling, you don’t believe it can be correct? Do you think that the information you have, the Pope didn’t or something?
 
kage_ar said:
Church doctrine has never changed. Not once, not since the sole of Jesus foot was on the earth til this second in time. No change. Ever.
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that wasn’t the question really. I asked him what HE thought needed to be changed in order for the Church to be perfect in HIS eyes. That brought about the discussion of IF it could be changed. Not if it ever was changed. But that question is tabled now until we discuss why the church’s teachings should be considered correct and why that process leads to infallibility.
 
newbetx said:
OK, so I don’t get what you don’t believe.

You say the Pope has the power to create doctrine, or pass judgment on it, but yet you don’t think his inspiration is infallible…

Is it because you don’t believe the him to be inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Or, because of your experience or feeling, you don’t believe it can be correct? Do you think that the information you have, the Pope didn’t or something?
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I believe that most Popes are extremely pious men who have dedicated their lives to God- I do not believe that means God interferes with the Pope’s thought process in a way unseen by the rest of us that prevents him from error.
 
tjm190 said:
I believe that most Popes are extremely pious men who have dedicated their lives to God- I do not believe that means God interferes with the Pope’s thought process in a way unseen by the rest of us that prevents him from error.
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I don’t think God interferes, either. I think He inspires because the Pope is prayerfully listening.

I believe these Popes are VERY much the servants of God. They aren’t there to oppress us and they are there to lead us to be better servants of God. And they live it though example.

I, of course, don’t know any of these fine men, personally. I can’t go prove this to myself. But I will take Bishop John McGee’s word for it. If you can get the CD, I suggest you do. Contact Lighthouse Catholic Media at
lighthousecatholicmedia.com/cdclub/
Dec 2008 Bishop John Magee Untold Stories of the Last Three Popes
 
newbetx said:
… I think He inspires because the Pope is prayerfully listening.

I believe these Popes are VERY much the servants of God. They aren’t there to oppress us and they are there to lead us to be better servants of God. And they live it though example. …
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Ideally, yes. But let’s be honest–not all popes were good, holy, prayerful men. Some were even corrupt. YET even in the darkest hours of the Church, those bad popes who did bad things did NOT create bad doctrine.
 
gardenswithkids said:
Ideally, yes. But let’s be honest–not all popes were good, holy, prayerful men. Some were even corrupt. YET even in the darkest hours of the Church, those bad popes who did bad things did NOT create bad doctrine.
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True. But I try to focus on the general purpose and the position and believe that most all of them, while maybe not desiring the job, are willing to execute it in the manner in which God intended.
 
So… we’ve established that Popes are very holy men is most cases.
Good work team!
 
tjm190 said:
So… we’ve established that Popes are very holy men is most cases.
Good work team!
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But we have yet to establish what it takes for you to believe that they are prompted by the Holy Spirit to guide us. That the Spirit works through them.

I don’t think you can accept the concept of infallibility without believing they are prompted by the Holy Spirit prior to making such proclamations. Would this be correct?
 
tjm190 said:
So… we’ve established that Popes are very holy men is most cases.
Good work team!
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LOL!

I brought up those rare less-than-holy popes because it gives some example of how God protected the Church from bad doctrine even when we had bad popes. Papal infallibility stands apart from the personal holiness of the pope, just as the validity of the Sacraments stand apart from the personal holiness of priests who administer them. It not that God guarantees perfect and holy popes–but The Holy Spirit protects the Church from doctrinal error. Believing Papal Infallibility has more to do with trusting in God and less to do with believing in the pope.
 
newbetx said:
Well, I was definitely thinking something different. Jesus didn’t expect the apostles to blindly believe. He took years to teach them. And he didn’t really condemn the Pharisees. He noted that they were condemning themselves for refusing to believe.
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He taught them because they believed in His authority to teach. They clearly didn’t understand until Pentecost. Separating oneself from the Church is separating from the grace of the Holy Spirit and is seen in the lack of assent to authority. Assent to the authority of God is greater than the assent to each doctrine He gives for our benefit. That would be the assent to ones own belief in the doctrine as ones greatest good in place of the assent to God Himself as one’s greatest Good.

The family of God is a sharing in the life of the Trinity, where there is no dissent. Understanding the mission of the Church is to understand the why of the doctrines if not the doctrines themselves, but the why is more important. It is based on desire to be humble and conformed to Christ and this is the “narrow road”.
 
newbetx said:
But we have yet to establish what it takes for you to believe that they are prompted by the Holy Spirit to guide us. That the Spirit works through them.

I don’t think you can accept the concept of infallibility without believing they are prompted by the Holy Spirit prior to making such proclamations. Would this be correct?
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To believe in Papal infallibility I would need to believe that the Holy Spirit spoke directly through the Pope.
The infallibility of Church doctrine would be alot tougher to swallow.
 
gardenswithkids said:
LOL!

I brought up those rare less-than-holy popes because it gives some example of how God protected the Church from bad doctrine even when we had bad popes. Papal infallibility stands apart from the personal holiness of the pope, just as the validity of the Sacraments stand apart from the personal holiness of priests who administer them. It not that God guarantees perfect and holy popes–but The Holy Spirit protects the Church from doctrinal error. Believing Papal Infallibility has more to do with trusting in God and less to do with believing in the pope.
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God never guaranteed the correctness of Church teaching.
 
tjm190 said:
God never guaranteed the correctness of Church teaching.
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To say this is to say that Christ is not the Head of the Church which is the “Body of Christ”. All the Church’s revelations come from Him, through the Holy Spirit. This doesn’t make you a dissident but an apostate. Please reconsider your chosen path.
From Dei Verbum
  1. The bride of the incarnate Word, the Church taught by the Holy Spirit, is concerned to move ahead toward a deeper understanding of the Sacred Scriptures so that she may increasingly feed her sons with the divine words. …
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From Lumen Gentium:
The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth (John 16:13) and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits. By the power of the Gospel He makes the Church keep the freshness of youth. Uninterruptedly He renews it and leads it to perfect union with its Spouse. The Spirit and the Bride both say to Jesus, the Lord, “Come!”
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Earnest_Bunbury said:
To say this is to say that Christ is not the Head of the Church which is the “Body of Christ”. All the Church’s revelations come from Him, through the Holy Spirit. This doesn’t make you a dissident but an apostate. Please reconsider your chosen path.
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Christ’s doctrine has been proclaimed in scripture. Everything else is the work of man- not to say that the work of man is worthless, but it is certainly not to be taken as infallible.

Again with the labels. If my beliefs system makes you a demon in your eyes, you are free to call me a demon- just know you don’t move the discussion forward by doing so (not that you did call me a demon, just making a point.)
 
tjm190 said:
Christ’s doctrine has been proclaimed in scripture. Everything else is the work of man- not to say that the work of man is worthless, but it is certainly not to be taken as infallible.

Again with the labels. If my beliefs system makes you a demon in your eyes, you are free to call me a demon- just know you don’t move the discussion forward by doing so (not that you did call me a demon, just making a point.)
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Ah, the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptura or what ever that is. That would be several protestant faiths.

Not sure why you think that scripture is faultless, but anything else can’t be faultless or less inspired. Is that the basic argument here?
 
newbetx said:
Ah, the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptura or what ever that is. That would be several protestant faiths.

Not sure why you think that scripture is faultless, but anything else can’t be faultless or less inspired. Is that the basic argument here?
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I’m not advocating sola scriptura- but it would seem that Christ would have stated His intent to protect the Church from error if that were going to happen. It’s a rather key detail to leave out.
I consider scripture to be divine revelation. I agree there are inconsistencies on off topic or semi-on topic matters.
 
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