"You think you know better!"

[gardenswithkids]

I’m not advocating sola scriptura- but it would seem that Christ would have stated His intent to protect the Church from error if that were going to happen. It’s a rather key detail to leave out…

Here are a few scriptures I suggest you pray over and meditate on:

Matthew 18: 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or tack collector. " Matt 18: verse 18 “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Luke 10:16 "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whaever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me. "

I Timothy 3:15 “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”

Acts 1: 8 “But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you…”

John 16:12-13 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.”

Hope those help. God bless.

 

[newbetx]

Matthew 16
16] Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, **and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. **
19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

What does “and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” mean to you?

I’m not advocating sola scriptura- but it would seem that Christ would have stated His intent to protect the Church from error if that were going to happen. It’s a rather key detail to leave out.
I consider scripture to be divine revelation. I agree there are inconsistencies on off topic or semi-on topic matters.

Seems to us that He did indeed state this.

What are the “powers of death?”

 

[gardenswithkids]

I ran across this Bible verse too, Ephesians 5:25-26 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

I think this verse tells us that the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, does intend to protect His Bride, the Church, from doctrinal error. He sanctifies the Church through His personal sacrifice, making His Bride holy and without blemish. The surrounding verses give advice for husbands and wives, telling us that spousal relationships of Christians should reflect the relationship between Christ and the Church.

 

[tjm190]

The powers of death? If you get something wrong have the powers of death prevailed over you?
Edit- and we know that the Church has had “blemishes” in the past

 

[newbetx]

I ran across this Bible verse too, Ephesians 5:25-26 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

I think this verse tells us that the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, does intend to protect His Bride, the Church, from doctrinal error. He sanctifies the Church through His personal sacrifice, making His Bride holy and without blemish. The surrounding verses give advice for husbands and wives, telling us that spousal relationships of Christians should reflect the relationship between Christ and the Church.

Excellent point and good additional reference. I wish I knew my way around the Bible as much as others here, do. This is one of the concepts with TOB… The analogy of husband and wife being “one” as Christ is one with the Church. We fail at this daily. We believe, that Christ AND the Church IS one. More so that we could ever really understand.

I do wish to point out that these are difficult concepts to accept since there does not appear to be any concrete way to prove these things that must be accepted by faith.

Being a “Thomas,” myself, I understand these struggles maybe more than the people that “got them” in the first place. It’s difficult to accept many teachings on face value since our culture does not support them well these days. It was probably easier many years ago when the culture supported “Christian values” better than they do, today.

But what I finally understood was that if one does not accept a particular concept, upon which others are based, the ability to accept the latter concept is impossible. Hence my post a bit back on A based on B. …

I’m not sure what to do at this point. It’s tmj’s thread. He can take it anywhere he wants. I think the original point of the thread was to discuss how uncharitable our responses to him are sometimes. I think we can be uncharitable or impatient to some posters “that don’t get it.” And I’m not singling anyone out here as as most all of us are really wanting to communicate the concepts of the faith with tmj. But sometimes CAF is quite inefficient about it. It’s easy to “preach to the choir.” More difficult for those not yet in the building or standing in the doorway.

And tmj, I don’t mean to appear to speak for you. my apologies if it appears that way. Written communications is inefficient enough without people like me trying to do it.

Peace!

 

[newbetx]

The powers of death? If you get something wrong have the powers of death prevailed over you?
Edit- and we know that the Church has had “blemishes” in the past

Well, that’s where I like to point out the differences in the Church and the church. The people in the church are NOT the Church. The Church can convey messages through those in the church. But the people are also human and suffer from the human condition.

Heck, even the Pope goes to confession. What a preist does that might be a sin in no way dimishes the power or beauty of the Church. It’s easy to understand why the acts of one that is a member of an organization that is held to a higher standard would tarnish the reputation of that organization. However, we must realize the Church is NOT the product of the members. The members are meant to be the product of the Church.

 

[tjm190]

Well, that’s where I like to point out the differences in the Church and the church. The people in the church are NOT the Church. The Church can convey messages through those in the church. But the people are also human and suffer from the human condition.

Heck, even the Pope goes to confession. What a preist does that might be a sin in no way dimishes the power or beauty of the Church. It’s easy to understand why the acts of one that is a member of an organization that is held to a higher standard would tarnish the reputation of that organization. However, we must realize the Church is NOT the product of the members. The members are meant to be the product of the Church.

You seem to be making a distinction that Paul or Christ could have quite easily made/stated if they saw fit.

 

[newbetx]

You seem to be making a distinction that Paul or Christ could have quite easily made/stated if they saw fit.

There is a gap. Not everything said was specific to every level of understanding or desire. Remember, the Pharisees were good at making these types of arguments. There was more focus on what was exactly written, not what was implied. Like the Bible says nowhere that “file sharing” is forbidden. This is an lively discussion with some here, if you wish to join that debate. The list certainly could have included items not conceivable by those doing the writing or reading but it doesn’t.

So the question is what is the Church to you? I get the impression from previous posts that the church is just a group of bureaucrats doing the “best they can.” Leadership, therefore, can not be divinely inspired.

 

[tjm190]

There is a gap. Not everything said was specific to every level of understanding or desire. Remember, the Pharisees were good at making these types of arguments. There was more focus on what was exactly written, not what was implied. Like the Bible says nowhere that “file sharing” is forbidden. This is an lively discussion with some here, if you wish to join that debate. The list certainly could have included items not conceivable by those doing the writing or reading but it doesn’t.

So the question is what is the Church to you? I get the impression from previous posts that the church is just a group of bureaucrats doing the “best they can.” Leadership, therefore, can not be divinely inspired.

The bible does not forbid file sharing because no such thing existed- it did forbid theft, so the debate becomes whether or not it constitutes theft (a much trickier question than it first appears imo)- it makes sense that scripture would not address things that did not yet exist. The closest it could have come would be- “Thou shalt not read and make an exact copy of thy neighbors book without his permission.” But I’m not seeing anything “new” here for the bible to have “missed.”

I don’t see them as “just a group of bureaucrats”- I don’t see anything meager or insignificant about their work (if that was what you sought to imply), although you are correct in that I don’t see their proclamations as coming directly from a higher authority.

 

[newbetx]

The bible does not forbid file sharing because no such thing existed- it did forbid theft, so the debate becomes whether or not it constitutes theft (a much trickier question than it first appears imo)- it makes sense that scripture would not address things that did not yet exist. The closest it could have come would be- “Thou shalt not read and make an exact copy of thy neighbors book without his permission.” But I’m not seeing anything “new” here for the bible to have “missed.”

I don’t see them as “just a group of bureaucrats”- I don’t see anything meager or insignificant about their work (if that was what you sought to imply), although you are correct in that I don’t see their proclamations as coming directly from a higher authority.

I didn’t mean to imply. I was curious as to your perspective.

So is the basic thing you don’t believe is that the Church works with the Spirit through people to lead us to the fullness of faith?

I’m having difficulty understanding why you think scripture is divinely inspired, but (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth so excuse me here if it appears this way) but you don’t believe that the Spirit can or does direct our leaders, today.

 

[tjm190]

I didn’t mean to imply. I was curious as to your perspective.

Just making sure

So is the basic thing you don’t believe is that the Church works with the Spirit through people to lead us to the fullness of faith?

ummm… sure. I’d just say I don’t believe the Church is a source of divine revelation, but that works too.

I’m having difficulty understanding why you think scripture is divinely inspired, but (and I don’t want to put words in your mouth so excuse me here if it appears this way) but you don’t believe that the Spirit can or does direct our leaders, today.

Well I wouldn’t say the Spirit “can’t”: just as I said before however, I don’t take the Church as a source of divine revelation.

 

[newbetx]

Just making sure

ummm… sure. I’d just say I don’t believe the Church is a source of divine revelation, but that works too.

Well I wouldn’t say the Spirit “can’t”: just as I said before however, I don’t take the Church as a source of divine revelation.

I use big C and little c on purpose so that we talk about the difference.

Is the big C Church, a divine entity or Earthly entity? Do you believe in a divine “Church”? The bride of Christ? Do you believe there is a “divine” Church?

 

[tjm190]

I use big C and little c on purpose so that we talk about the difference.

Is the big C Church, a divine entity or Earthly entity? Do you believe in a divine “Church”? The bride of Christ? Do you believe there is a “divine” Church?

The semantics are getting exciting here- When I say “Church” with the “C” I am generally referring to the RCC. I believe the divine “Church”/bride of Christ to refer to the universal body of believers- independent of denomination.

 

[newbetx]

The semantics are getting exciting here- When I say “Church” with the “C” I am generally referring to the RCC. I believe the divine “Church”/bride of Christ to refer to the universal body of believers- independent of denomination.

Interesting. I don’t see it that way. What (and I’m assuming here) in scripture lead you to that definition?

 

[newbetx]

Interesting. I don’t see it that way.

Let me explain a bit here if you don’t mind my digression. I didn’t want it to sound like I was trying to argue with you…
To come to the Catholic Church in the first place, I had to resolve in my mind at the time “God rules” and “Church rules.” Do you know what I mean?

 

[tjm190]

Interesting. I don’t see it that way. What (and I’m assuming here) in scripture lead you to that definition?

Well all of scripture was written prior to any schism so it’s not a belief I can form that strong a defense of- it seems more like a logical conclusion of the statement of faith I make in the Creed.

 

[tjm190]

Let me explain a bit here if you don’t mind my digression. I didn’t want it to sound like I was trying to argue with you…
To come to the Catholic Church in the first place, I had to resolve in my mind at the time “God rules” and “Church rules.” Do you know what I mean?

hmm… As in “man made law” vs. “God made law”?

 

[newbetx]

hmm… As in “man made law” vs. “God made law”?

Right. What is “man made law” and what is “God made law.” And how do we know the difference?

 

[tjm190]

Right. What is “man made law” and what is “God made law.” And how do we know the difference?

God made- established by Christ.
Man made- established by followers of Christ. Also refers to governmental/societal laws.

 

[newbetx]

God made- established by Christ.
Man made- established by followers of Christ. Also refers to governmental/societal laws.

God made, established by God, including those “before” Christ like the ten commandments.
Man made, societal laws for the health and well being of the society. Whether made by Christians or not.

Seem reasonable?

So like the rule about ladies having to wear hats in Church. God law or Man law?