"You think you know better!"

[tjm190]

God made, established by God, including those “before” Christ like the ten commandments.
Man made, societal laws for the health and well being of the society. Whether made by Christians or not.

Seem reasonable?

So like the rule about ladies having to wear hats in Church. God law or Man law?

Wasn’t aware of that rule- and of course we’d call that man made.

 

[newbetx]

Wasn’t aware of that rule- and of course we’d call that man made.

My understanding it was quite some time ago. So something like that, which isn’t enforced much today would easily be considered “man law.” Right?

So let’s back up a minute… Some things are divinely inspired. Right? Like Paul’s letters? Paul was inspired to write those things. Correct? Do you consider them infallible?

 

[tjm190]

My understanding it was quite some time ago. So something like that, which isn’t enforced much today would easily be considered “man law.” Right?

So let’s back up a minute… Some things are divinely inspired. Right? Like Paul’s letters? Paul was inspired to write those things. Correct? Do you consider them infallible?

I’ve actually been iffy on Paul’s letters- the New Testament basically chronicles the life of Christ and the early church, besides the book of revelation. Paul’s epistles seem to serve just show us what controversies had arisen and how Paul quelled them. If they contained divine information, God would probably have made sure we didn’t loose some of them (e.g. some epistles reference other epistles we have no record of)

 

[newbetx]

I’ve actually been iffy on Paul’s letters- the New Testament basically chronicles the life of Christ and the early church, besides the book of revelation. Paul’s epistles seem to serve just show us what controversies had arisen and how Paul quelled them. If they contained divine information, God would probably have made sure we didn’t loose some of them (e.g. some epistles reference other epistles we have no record of)

So if God protected these, how did they become what we know of as the New Testament? And what of the OT? Who makes the decision on what was in and what was out? In other words Who made the bible?

 

[newbetx]

BTW… I’m heading out for the day. I may not be back until tomorrow.

 

[emseguin]

Dear TJM

It sounds as though you have many issues within the Catholic Church, contraception, Paul’s letters, infallibility, etc…
It is always good to question and seek the Truth for yourself, which you are doing.
I do not think a discussion like this though is helpful, as your responses are quick to disregard what others are writing in response. It does not seem like a discussion rather a “I am going to refute each sentence you write and am looking for the next to do so” - It seems that way anyway yes it makes sense, as you “believe” one thing and others another thing, but are you really open to what others are speaking? Are you really open to the POSSIBILITY that what you believe is wrong?

At the end of the day, all one can do to kow more is pray. And I mean truly pray. If you want to know about Christ’s Church, the TRUE Church, then you have to spen time with him, receive the sacraments, daily Eucharist if you can, confession every couple weeks, and of course Holy Adoration.
I always think that those who struggle or disagree need to just surrender to Christ, tell Him this is all that you believe and then just work on your relationship with Him.
He will not lead you to false teachings, or to doubt His Church.

I have been blessed in that my faith grew and I never questioned. I prayed and I sought out solid Catholics who above any apologetics and millions of books they have read, their relationship with Christ was center and insanely strong.
You must be careful who you listen to and who you speak with, but again, faith in Christ, if you are lead the wrong way, He will bring you back if your prayer is “lead me to You”
He will.

God bless you on your journey, keep searching!

 

[tjm190]

Dear TJM

It sounds as though you have many issues within the Catholic Church, contraception, Paul’s letters, infallibility, etc…
It is always good to question and seek the Truth for yourself, which you are doing.
I do not think a discussion like this though is helpful, as your responses are quick to disregard what others are writing in response. It does not seem like a discussion rather a “I am going to refute each sentence you write and am looking for the next to do so” - It seems that way anyway yes it makes sense, as you “believe” one thing and others another thing, but are you really open to what others are speaking? Are you really open to the POSSIBILITY that what you believe is wrong?

People generally don’t provide any new information, so there normally isn’t a need to pry. And I know in all things I might be wrong- but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t defend my view points.

At the end of the day, all one can do to kow more is pray. And I mean truly pray. If you want to know about Christ’s Church, the TRUE Church, then you have to spen time with him, receive the sacraments, daily Eucharist if you can, confession every couple weeks, and of course Holy Adoration.
I always think that those who struggle or disagree need to just surrender to Christ, tell Him this is all that you believe and then just work on your relationship with Him.
He will not lead you to false teachings, or to doubt His Church.

I have been blessed in that my faith grew and I never questioned. I prayed and I sought out solid Catholics who above any apologetics and millions of books they have read, their relationship with Christ was center and insanely strong.
You must be careful who you listen to and who you speak with, but again, faith in Christ, if you are lead the wrong way, He will bring you back if your prayer is “lead me to You”
He will.

God bless you on your journey, keep searching!

I’m sure you know that there are people who pray to God outside the RCC a great deal- yet they remain un-Catholic and I assume don’t accept infallibility.

 

[emseguin]

"People generally don’t provide any new information, so there normally isn’t a need to pry. And I know in all things I might be wrong- but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t defend my view points. "

I never said you shouldn’t defend…and the word “defend” is not proper to discussions, more to a debate. I said I thought it was great of you to question.

"I’m sure you know that there are people who pray to God outside the RCC a great deal- yet they remain un-Catholic and I assume don’t accept infallibility. "

I was not talking about other churches, we are discussing those within the Catholic Church who question or do not believe all teachings.
Question: are you a Catholic? I guess I need to ask that first, because I am not sure what exactly you stated in all those posts, I am unsure
And what I meant in the praying to God part was that if you are open, and I mean really open He will lead you. What you have just said is irrelevant to what we are talking about, those within the Catholic Church. You have made it sound, in my opinion, that God will NOT lead you even when you pray well… what kind of belief is that?
He will lead everyone as He choose and and they choose.

That is what I am trying to state At the end of the day, it comes down to the disposition of your heart…if you WANT to change, because if you really did believe in the Catholic Church, you would have to change. If you really want to learn and find the truth you will

Many things cannot be explained, and many things remain proven but it still takes faith.
Let me ask you this, do you believe in the True presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Body Blood Soul and Divinity?

 

[newbetx]

I’ve actually been iffy on Paul’s letters- the New Testament basically chronicles the life of Christ and the early church, besides the book of revelation. Paul’s epistles seem to serve just show us what controversies had arisen and how Paul quelled them. If they contained divine information, God would probably have made sure we didn’t loose some of them (e.g. some epistles reference other epistles we have no record of)

So if God protected these, how did they become what we know of as the New Testament? And what of the OT? Who makes the decision on what was in and what was out? In other words Who made the bible?

Have you had time to think about these, yet?

 

[kage_ar]

Edit- and we know that the Church has had “blemishes” in the past

Cite one time the Church has officially taught error in Faith or Morals? Just one.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Cite one time the Church has officially taught error in Faith or Morals? Just one.

The book “Change in Official Catholic Moral Teaching” (see here) by Charles Corran covers this.

 

[newbetx]

The book “Change in Official Catholic Moral Teaching” (see here) by Charles Corran covers this.

Interesting book. I have to admit, though, I’ll need a bigger dictionary. I’ll read what Amazon will let me to get a feel of it.

Change, does not explicitly imply error. Even God changed things. Read Genesis. That did not mean there was an error. We also have to consider what is church teaching and what is apt opinion by a high ranking church official.

 

[tjm190]

Have you had time to think about these, yet?

The early Church picked the books for the OT, I’m not sure what their criteria was- my history is a little weak in this department, but as I recall there was already general acceptance of what Gospels were accurate, plus whatever of Paul’s writings were left. Completely clueless on how the other books ended up where they are.

 

[tjm190]

I never said you shouldn’t defend…and the word “defend” is not proper to discussions, more to a debate. I said I thought it was great of you to question.

Questioning is a temporary state- I’d say you start at skepticism, move to questioning, then (unless one is satisfied by the answers to the questions) doubt, then rejection. I’d say I’m at the rejection phase, but nothing is ever black and white.

I was not talking about other churches, we are discussing those within the Catholic Church who question or do not believe all teachings.
Question: are you a Catholic? I guess I need to ask that first, because I am not sure what exactly you stated in all those posts, I am unsure

Yes

And what I meant in the praying to God part was that if you are open, and I mean really open He will lead you. What you have just said is irrelevant to what we are talking about, those within the Catholic Church. You have made it sound, in my opinion, that God will NOT lead you even when you pray well… what kind of belief is that?
He will lead everyone as He choose and and they choose.

New example- I assume the vast majority of priests in the RCC pray much more than I do. But a great deal of priests dissent from Church teaching, so one would infer that they reject infallibility.

That is what I am trying to state At the end of the day, it comes down to the disposition of your heart…if you WANT to change, because if you really did believe in the Catholic Church, you would have to change. If you really want to learn and find the truth you will

Many things cannot be explained, and many things remain proven but it still takes faith.
Let me ask you this, do you believe in the True presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Body Blood Soul and Divinity?

I want my beliefs to give me an accurate picture of the objective reality. And yes, I do believe in the Real presence

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

The book “Change in Official Catholic Moral Teaching” (see here) by Charles Corran covers this.

from wikapedia:

In 1986, the Vatican declared that although a tenured professor, [Charles] Curran could no longer teach theology at Catholic University of America schools, because “clashes with church authorities finally culminated in a decision by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed by then-Cardinal Josef Ratzinger [now Pope Benedict XVI], that Curran was neither suitable nor eligible to be a professor of Catholic theology.” The areas of dispute included publishing articles that debated theological and ethical views regarding divorce, “artificial contraception”, “masturbation, pre-marital intercourse and homosexual acts.”

Not someone faithful Catholics should or need to listen to.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Not someone faithful Catholics should or need to listen to.

Not surprisingly, Catholic theologians who publicize when the Catholic Church has been wrong in the past are often punished by what used to be the Holy Office of the Inquisition.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It is no secret that there is dissent within the Church- from laymen all the way up to Bishops, a great deal of the faithful reject certain aspects of Church doctrine. And, having been raised in a Catholic environment- I can safely say that these people have made the majority of Catholics I have come in contact with, perhaps even the majority of priests. In fact, it was not until coming to these forums that there was such a backlash against those who do not accept the Magisterium’s teaching as being above question. I have seen many accusations leveled against those who do not accept all Church teaching, particularly in my contraception thread, but in other threads as well not always referring to me- but the most notable was the claim that disagreeing with Church teaching was tantamount to telling the Church “I know better.”
This claim is, in almost all cases, completely unfounded and out of place.
Disagreement does not imply a belief in superiority- it implies the belief that your own reason and intellect have value outside of the ability to agree with said group. If one truly thought they knew better than someone else, one would have no interest in having a discussion to better understand another’s point, and share your own reasoning- what would be the point?
Saying someone thinks they know better is a clear attempt to imply that mere disagreement is an insult to those holding the belief which is being disagreed with- but this is not the case! For example, I disagree with the current administration on many issues- however, I would not claim “I know better”- I have less experience and knowledge in the relevant fields than those making policy. However, my (and your) ability to analyze their arguments and get outside information allows me (and you) to reject the claims put forth by others and form our own beliefs without belittling those holding them.

On a side note, I’ve heard rumors that the belief that Church doctrines should be the subject of debate can be shown to be the result of a relativistic mind set- would anyone care to outline that process for me?

Anecdotal evidence from someone who admits to being a dissident.

Who are you trying to convince? Me?

Not gonna happen.

God?

Think again.

 

[tjm190]

Anecdotal evidence from someone who admits to being a dissident.

Who are you trying to convince? Me?

Not gonna happen.

God?

Think again.

Anecdotal evidence? Of what? I was just trying to refute a claim that’s thrown around.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Not surprisingly, Catholic theologians who publicize when the Catholic Church has been wrong in the past are often punished by what used to be the Holy Office of the Inquisition.

Right, it couldn’t possibly be that this theologian has his own agenda or anything, it’s always the Church with the problem…

Judas was a disciple of Christ, right in the inner circle and he doubted and couldn’t see Christ for what he was. He literally sold out. There are always those who will dissent and sell out. There is nothing inherantly wrong with questioning and seeking answers, the problem comes when you decide to reject Church authority for your own Popedom, when you decide to sell out, when you decide to reject Jesus through your dissent.

I don’t understand how the OP can believe in the Real Presence and yet reject most of what the Church teaches…under what authority does the Catholic Church have the Real Presence if you reject her Authority?

 

[Just_Lurking]

Right, it couldn’t possibly be that this theologian has his own agenda or anything, it’s always the Church with the problem…

One hundred years ago, the Vatican insisted that Moses was the author of the first five books of the Old Testament, and at least one Catholic theologian who disagreed with that lost his academic position (at Catholic University of America?) as a result.

Who is to say that the Vatican won’t likewise change its mind about Charles Curran in another hundred years.