"You think you know better!"

[tjm190]

Back to my questions for you tjm… What makes scripture “inspired” if it was written by man? (and I don’t care which one)

If scripture is inspired, why can’t other people be inspired too?

Inspired how? For example, I wouldn’t say that the Gospels or Acts were necessarily “inspired”, but a chronicling of Jesus/the Apostles- albeit, the writings are evangelical rather than historical so we see each author “play up” certain elements of Jesus’s ministry. I suppose I could accept the Apostles as inspired people but we don’t see the Pope or Bishops speaking all languages simultaneously.

 

[newbetx]

Inspired how? For example, I wouldn’t say that the Gospels or Acts were necessarily “inspired”, but a chronicling of Jesus/the Apostles- albeit, the writings are evangelical rather than historical so we see each author “play up” certain elements of Jesus’s ministry. I suppose I could accept the Apostles as inspired people but we don’t see the Pope or Bishops speaking all languages simultaneously.

Tongues are an interesting side discussion… we’ll come back to that.

Inspired… So you look at the NT as “historical.” rather than prophetic. OK. Pauls letters certainly were **not **historical per se… I mean he felt like he “got something” and needed to tell others about it. Right? So are the letters not “inspired scripture” in your mind?

 

[tjm190]

Tongues are an interesting side discussion… we’ll come back to that.

Inspired… So you look at the NT as “historical.” rather than prophetic. OK. Pauls letters certainly were **not **historical per se… I mean he felt like he “got something” and needed to tell others about it. Right? So are the letters not “inspired scripture” in your mind?

I don’t have a firm stance on the inspiration of Paul, I generally looked at the letters as a way to document interaction within the early Church- which was key given how far scattered the Church was.
I think accepting Paul’s writings as inspired would make it difficult to accept that not all of the Epistles are certain to have been written by Paul.

 

[newbetx]

I don’t have a firm stance on the inspiration of Paul, I generally looked at the letters as a way to document interaction within the early Church- which was key given how far scattered the Church was.
I think accepting Paul’s writings as inspired would make it difficult to accept that not all of the Epistles are certain to have been written by Paul.

That’s kinda been my point… Not everything written or said is “inspired” to the level of being scripture… If even scripture isn’t considered holy, then we really do not have a basis upon which to build our Church.

So either all the books are inspired and holy and part of our faith or they are not.

 

[TCostello]

I don’t think people here would generally fault a non-Catholic for simply disagreeing with Church doctrine. It’s just that by starting off saying “I’m Catholic,” and then saying that one disagrees with some official doctrine, that person is contradicting himself/herself.

To be Catholic is to believe that the Church’s basic claim of authority to teach God’s word is true.

Otherwise, it’s like saying, “I’m a feminist, but I just don’t believe in equal rights for women.”

Peace

John

Nice!!!

 

[newbetx]

I don’t have a firm stance on the inspiration of Paul, I generally looked at the letters as a way to document interaction within the early Church- which was key given how far scattered the Church was.
I think accepting Paul’s writings as inspired would make it difficult to accept that not all of the Epistles are certain to have been written by Paul.

That’s kinda been my point… Not everything written or said is “inspired” to the level of being scripture… If even scripture isn’t considered holy, then we really do not have a basis upon which to build our Church.

So either all the books are inspired and holy and part of our faith or they are not.

Sorry. I had to run out…

I understand your reluctance to accept all gospel as infallible… I thought the same at one point. But we have to start with something, or we’re just making things up as they go. While I don’t necessarily think all scripture is literal, I do feel the need to use it as basis. In other words, I count on the spirit to have inspired the writers AND to have inspired those that chose the books for the Bible.

If one thinks scripture is no more than historical record or “one man’s opinion,” then I don’t know how one has a basis for faith. You’ve got me stumped.

So I guess, I assume there is a God. Because to assume otherwise, well, it makes no sense. So I assume scripture is the basis for knowing how to live, because to assume otherwise… well, what else could there be? Leno’s monologue?

 

[tjm190]

Sorry. I had to run out…

I understand your reluctance to accept all gospel as infallible… I thought the same at one point. But we have to start with something, or we’re just making things up as they go. While I don’t necessarily think all scripture is literal, I do feel the need to use it as basis. In other words, I count on the spirit to have inspired the writers AND to have inspired those that chose the books for the Bible.

If one thinks scripture is no more than historical record or “one man’s opinion,” then I don’t know how one has a basis for faith. You’ve got me stumped.

So I guess, I assume there is a God. Because to assume otherwise, well, it makes no sense. So I assume scripture is the basis for knowing how to live, because to assume otherwise… well, what else could there be? Leno’s monologue?

Well, with respect to the gospels- there were many accounts written of Jesus. The ones chosen were the ones that had wide gained acceptance by the end of the first century- I consider them a credible basis. I think they’re the best records of Jesus’s ministry out there. (personally however, the “showy” miracles such as walking on water seem out of character for Jesus, but that’s just me)

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Perhaps, although I have my own reasons for rejecting infallibility.

Not original as in “novel”, original as in coming from the self. I’m not one to read someone else’s book or essay before forming an opinion.

I believe contraception is morally neutral- I don’t support or condemn its use. As a result, I would argue against anyone who claims it is intrinsically good or evil.

There is always intrinsic good and evil. If you refuse to serve good, you end up serving evil by default.

And that is not a matter of opinion. I didn’t invent it. God did.

 

[newbetx]

Well, with respect to the gospels- there were many accounts written of Jesus. The ones chosen were the ones that had wide gained acceptance by the end of the first century- I consider them a credible basis. I think they’re the best records of Jesus’s ministry out there. (personally however, the “showy” miracles such as walking on water seem out of character for Jesus, but that’s just me)

I never know how literal to take bible passages like that. However, the message behind it seems to me to be what is vitally important. The message is what needs to be understood. And it’s important that you take in the circumstances, both stated and implied by the story to get the significance of the message. Some of the writings were from a time we have no reference too… unless you are a history buff. That is why, IMO, reading the bible and then coming up with your own interpretation is so dangerous. Bible scholars do much of the background work for us. And we have to rely on those people, and believe them, on what that background is for all of these stories.

It’s a struggle to live in faith. One, that, over the years I’ve found my folly in thinking I didn’t need to have a good faith life. After 8 years of yet another marriage going to heck, I read about Scott and Kimberly Hahn. An amazing conversion story of a real anti-Catholics and Bible scholars. They were Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide all the way… and if they came to know the Church via scripture, then it’s something I should consider. I now understand the value of a conversion experience. I don’t know if or when you might be blessed enough to have one, but I hope it’s not due to a misery or regrettable experience in your life. BTDT.

People do need something to believe in. Their rock. Their basis upon which they can always return. From that, they can build. But they must build with things they can trust. One has to find their own way sometimes. I hope your journey is full of good surprises. Mine has been. I got help from some great converts. Scott Hahn, Fr. Corapi, some here on CAF, and some great apologists, like Tim Staples, Jeff Cavins, and Matthew Kelly.

Some may not be to your taste. Some I listen to, do turn me off. Go find someone else. It’s likely not the message as much as the method of delivering it. Great speakers CAN deliver the wrong message. And poor speakers may have a great message. I stick with Catholic speakers, of course. I have chosen that path. There are some concepts I still don’t get. I might someday, maybe never. It’s OK. While I still struggle to completely submit to our Lord, I know now that is what I have to do.

I am a convert. Like so many here. We can relate to what you say but we don’t believe it anymore. Many more here can not relate. Please don’t be angry about the delivery, but look into the message. It’s the message from God that’s key.

Peace to you.

 

[kage_ar]

You deny the authority of the Church, that Jesus even STARTED a Church, the truth of Scripture, the canon of the Bible, the miracles of Jesus - let me guess, you also most likely deny the Trinity, Virgin Birth and Divinity of Christ.

 

[newbetx]

You deny the authority of the Church, that Jesus even STARTED a Church, the truth of Scripture, the canon of the Bible, the miracles of Jesus - let me guess, you also most likely deny the Trinity, Virgin Birth and Divinity of Christ.

So what if he does? Many, many people don’t believe in those concepts. It’s not up to us to judge or accuse him here. Is this a way to be charitable? Even Christ could not convert some hearts while he was staring them in the face. Woe be to them. I know how much your faith means to you. Rejoice you have it. Be charitable to those who don’t. When this happens to me I try to recall the third Sorrowful Mystery.

Please, posters. Don’t let someone’s unbelief lower our standards of charity. Stray dogs don’t go to a person with a stick in his hand.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…(personally however, the “showy” miracles such as walking on water seem out of character for Jesus, but that’s just me)

Out of character for Jesus? That statement makes me wonder what your view of Jesus is if you think such miracles are “out of character.” In a book by Peter Kreeft, one character says, “Miracles are what you would call the exceptions that prove the rules of nature.”

Maybe it’s just me. Where I live, we walk on water all the time. No big deal–in winter we call walkable water, “snow” or “ice”. Since we mere humans can walk on water under certain conditions, it doesn’t seem like a stretch for Jesus to walk on water anytime He pleases. I love that miracle! I often think of that story when I’m afraid of slipping on the ice in winter. I love that Peter wants to walk on water too–and he can! until he starts doubting, then he sinks and calls out to Jesus to save him. Peter’s part of the story reminds me of our human walks of faith. With faith we can do the impossible. But often we start something on faith, then we start to doubt, then we sink and fear we’re getting in over our heads. At that point we must call out to Jesus to save us. And He does.

Anyway, that’s my take on that story. You picked on of my favorite miracles of Jesus to dismiss because it didn’t fit your view of Jesus. Obviously we have different views of Jesus. What is your view of Jesus? Why do you think such miracles are out of character for Him?

 

[kage_ar]

So what if he does? Many, many people don’t believe in those concepts. It’s not up to us to judge or accuse him here. Is this a way to be charitable? Even Christ could not convert some hearts while he was staring them in the face. Woe be to them. I know how much your faith means to you. Rejoice you have it. Be charitable to those who don’t. When this happens to me I try to recall the third Sorrowful Mystery.

Please, posters. Don’t let someone’s unbelief lower our standards of charity. Stray dogs don’t go to a person with a stick in his hand.

Honesty leads a person not to claim the title Christian when they deny the foundational concepts of Christianity.

Judging actions, juding fruits how Jesus TELLS US to recognize Christians.

We cannot judge souls, that is up to God. God in His mercy may provide extraordinary means for those who reject Christianity to come to Him.

 

[newbetx]

Out of character for Jesus? That statement makes me wonder what your view of Jesus is if you think such miracles are “out of character.” In a book by Peter Kreeft, one character says, “Miracles are what you would call the exceptions that prove the rules of nature.”

Maybe it’s just me. Where I live, we walk on water all the time. No big deal–in winter we call walkable water, “snow” or “ice”. Since we mere humans can walk on water under certain conditions, it doesn’t seem like a stretch for Jesus to walk on water anytime He pleases. I love that miracle! I often think of that story when I’m afraid of slipping on the ice in winter. I love that Peter wants to walk on water too–and he can! until he starts doubting, then he sinks and calls out to Jesus to save him. Peter’s part of the story reminds me of our human walks of faith. With faith we can do the impossible. But often we start something on faith, then we start to doubt, then we sink and fear we’re getting in over our heads. At that point we must call out to Jesus to save us. And He does.

Anyway, that’s my take on that story. You picked on of my favorite miracles of Jesus to dismiss because it didn’t fit your view of Jesus. Obviously we have different views of Jesus. What is your view of Jesus? Why do you think such miracles are out of character for Him?

Obviously you are hurt. I hope it wasn’t intended that way.

Well, there are a few stories of Jesus that seem out of character for a “lamb.” Like the temple thing… The anointing with oil… calling the Pharasees a bunch of vipers. Knowing and understanding Jesus takes a lot of prayer and effort. We sometimes call people names or act in anger, but those are not always a true imitation of Christ.

And like you say, there is an important message in that story. One that should not be ignored based on a bias or a doubt about the “showiness” or the miracle. Some people have difficulty getting past a action or a job title or body type to see what lay beneath. We all have our biases and prejudices. We are human and weak.

I’m sure GwK that your view of Jesus is different from mine or others. It may be uniqe. We are called to personally experience Jesus. How we do that (or not) shapes our view of him. We are all human and are weak in some way. We are called to help the weak. CAF is here to lead someone to answers. Chasing someone with a stick is not leading.

I guess my lecture to you and kage will go over as well as your lectures to tjm. So please take them in the manner in which I meant, not as they may sound. Peace to you all.

Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy (like me). Amen.

 

[newbetx]

Honesty leads a person not to claim the title Christian when they deny the foundational concepts of Christianity.

Judging actions, juding fruits how Jesus TELLS US to recognize Christians.

We cannot judge souls, that is up to God. God in His mercy may provide extraordinary means for those who reject Christianity to come to Him.

We can not judge hearts, either. I don’t deny that he seems to lack a good foundation of faith. I guess I did too. I guess I’m still building it. I don’t intend to judge tjm. While it might work for some, chastising me never brought me closer to faith. The Spirit did. And as you say, will for others when they open themselves to the Spirit and decide to follow.

Kage, I respect your strength in your faith. I hope I can grow mine to the extent you have. I admire and depend on that faith to help me grow.

Peace.

 

[kage_ar]

Let’s say you are a math teacher, and it is your job to teach math.

A student comes in and says he denies that 1+1=2. He believes that 5-3 and 3-5 should result in the same answer because 5+3 and 3+5 are the same. He does not believe in “pi”.

The teacher is now judging the student when the teacher continues to state that the laws of mathematics are the laws of mathematics? The teacher is judging the student when she gives low grade or marks the answers as incorrect?

Truth is not negotiable, it is never loving to lead someone to believe that truth is relative.

Teach the truth in love, that is what the Church says.

 

[newbetx]

Let’s say you are a math teacher, and it is your job to teach math.

A student comes in and says he denies that 1+1=2. He believes that 5-3 and 3-5 should result in the same answer because 5+3 and 3+5 are the same. He does not believe in “pi”.

The teacher is now judging the student when the teacher continues to state that the laws of mathematics are the laws of mathematics? The teacher is judging the student when she gives low grade or marks the answers as incorrect?

Truth is not negotiable, it is never loving to lead someone to believe that truth is relative.

Teach the truth in love, that is what the Church says.

True story in college…
One of the guys in the next dorm room was a Bible totin’ Evangelical. Oh, we gave him plenty to not like us for.
One day he says to me, holding up his Bible. “HERE! You have now been exposed to the Bible! If you don’t head it’s contents and repent, you will go to hell!”

(God, please forgive me for what I did and said that day.)

Anyway, I was no more exposed to the Word of God that day than any other day. At least it was an attempt to evangelize… but I was not ready for it. I sometimes wonder what happened to that (now I realize) brave soul.

I see we are still not communicating. No. We don’t have to accept wrong answers. I didn’t mean to imply that. But we do have to accept where they are. We can not assume they have the same depth of faith or experience we do. There is a difference in handing back a failing paper with the comment “You’re a stupid failure.” and “I’m sorry, but you didn’t make the grade. Can we find a way to help you understand so that you do better next time?” No matter how insulted we may feel, we are still called to be charitable. Truth in love… and Truth with love. I guess “tough love” might be considered. Fr. Corapi does an excellent job with that.

Maybe I’m too optimistic, here. But I get the impression that are posters that come here to learn or understand. Some might be more stubborn than others. I know there are those that are not here to learn. Some are here to make fun of us or to try to convert us “stupid misguided Catholics” to some other form of faith, or impress upon us how much smarter they are than us on faith.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Obviously you are hurt. …

I’m sure GwK that your view of Jesus is different from mine or others. It may be uniqe. We are called to personally experience Jesus. …

Hurt, no. Perplexed about how the op views Jesus, yes. I asked an honest question about how the op views Jesus. A previous comments demonstrated that we had significantly differing views of Him. I could have just asked the question without providing my own reflections on the miracle of walking on water, but I also wanted to share some of my own views and thoughts about Jesus and His miracles.

I see you live Texas :tanning: so you may be unfamiliar with walking on frozen water in winter.:winter: Of course, we all have different life experiences and different personal experiences with Jesus. We can share our different experiences, and it can help us come to better understandings of each other and of Him. (I’ve read some thoughts that perhaps that is what the saints do in heaven, praising God as they learn of the marvelous deeds He has done for each other.)

People have different views of Jesus. I note even the Bible provides four gospels writers to offer differing views and experiences of Him. But that does not mean that everyone’s view of Jesus is neccesarily correct. Some people believe He was basically just a “nice guy”–maybe even kinda bland. Um, the world doesn’t typically crucify “nice guys”–they don’t stir up enough controversy to get nailed.

I asked the op how he/she views Jesus *not *because I saught to stir up controversy and crucify him/her, but because I honestly wanted to know his/her view of Jesus.

 

[PJM]

It is no secret that there is dissent within the Church- from laymen all the way up to Bishops, a great deal of the faithful reject certain aspects of Church doctrine. And, having been raised in a Catholic environment- I can safely say that these people have made the majority of Catholics I have come in contact with, perhaps even the majority of priests. In fact, it was not until coming to these forums that there was such a backlash against those who do not accept the Magisterium’s teaching as being above question. I have seen many accusations leveled against those who do not accept all Church teaching, particularly in my contraception thread, but in other threads as well not always referring to me- but the most notable was the claim that disagreeing with Church teaching was tantamount to telling the Church “I know better.”
This claim is, in almost all cases, completely unfounded and out of place.

Disagreement when disagreement is NOT PERMITTED certainly does evolve from an vasly improper mindset of EXTREME personal worth, Superior intellect, and unhearled wisdom.

I respectfully disagree with your position and give evidence of mine.

***What has perniciously been forced on the CC in America under the guise of “Vatican II MANDATES” was no such thing.

Many of Americas Bishops, priest, religious with foreknowledge, intent to disobey and to “remake the CC in their image” of what it should be, could only do so from an [imagined] point of view that they did indeed know more, and know better.

Did they?

PEW report 2007:

23% of Catholics regularly attend Sunday and Holy-day Mass [1970 the number was near 75%]

10% of Catholics go to Confession even once a year [was near 70%]

The second largest “christian” denomination in the USA is now fallen away catholics

The lack of personal piety is shocking and nothing is done to share proper practice. When is the last time you saw more than a very few genuflect in front of the reservation Tabernacle [including priest?] When is the last time you heard a sermon of being quiet in Church [oops, I’m sorry its not a church its only a “Gathering Space” so now its “OK?”

And laity do much of what the priest do and we wonder why there is a shortage of priest?

No friend, they clearly and indisputably are of the mind that they indeed DO KNOW MORE and DO KNOW BETTER! May God have mercy on us. Amen!

Love and prayers,****

 

[jpk1313]

Since I have the holy spirit I do know better than the secular about morals and faith. The spirit gives me understanding and the church gives me knowledge of what I understand