"You Weren't There, How Do You Know For Sure"

[Domino427]

I’m finding myself in a very difficult position right now, trying to speak to my wife about the Catholic faith. At this point, I’m afraid I may be doing more harm than good.

My wife, who grew up in a non-practicing Christian household, has been asking a lot of questions about the Catholic church lately. At first, I was excited. I’ve always prayed that she would some day want to share my faith. I’ve tried, as I’ve heard many times on CAL and Open Line to “plant the seeds” and just ask the Holy Spirit to help them grow.

I feel, at this time, she’s finding a desire to find faith. Unfortunately, the last few days I feel she’s being steered away from the Catholic faith–and I don’t know what to do, because I love her and want her to know the Truth.

She’s always been the type that needs to see/feel/etc to know something as fact, whereas belief being a personal/individual thing. This has led to comments like “you weren’t there, how do you know its not just one man’s interpretation” (ex: the authority given to Peter & the apostles, and ultimately the Church). Thus, she’s put off by the way the Church teaches it is the one and only true church, and that all others are wrong.

Finally, it all came to a head after Easter Mass. She doesn’t feel “accepted” at a Catholic Church because she can’t fully participate (Holy Eucharist), whereas if I were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn’t care if I received. I tried to explain, but it just wound up worse.

I’m afraid she’s going to wind up attending a non-denominational church with a friend. I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

Please help!

 

[Tomster]

Your wife is correct in saying that you were not there. Neither was I.

That being the case, introduce her to the people that were there - The Early Church Fathers.

 

[Domino427]

Your wife is correct in saying that you were not there. Neither was I.

That being the case, introduce her to the people that were there - The Early Church Fathers.

Unfortunately, I worry it would still come back to something along the lines of “how do you know they’re right” and “its just their interpretation” (and other ways of saying you can’t know without a doubt).

However, I will try to find more material to share with her. I hadn’t thought of that direction. It may help. Thank you!

 

[snarflemike]

One interesting discussion to have would be that neither of you were there when the books of the bible were written. How does she know the bible is what Christians claim it is? How does she know the books are inspired, and how does she know they have been handed down without error? And how does she know no inspired books were left out?

 

[Tomster]

Unfortunately, I worry it would still come back to something along the lines of “how do you know they’re right” and “its just their interpretation” (and other ways of saying you can’t know without a doubt).

However, I will try to find more material to share with her. I hadn’t thought of that direction. It may help. Thank you!

Well, it seems to me that if this is the mind-set of your wife she will take this doubt with her into any non-denominational church she attends which will only compound matters for her. Give her some room and let her sort things out. But always be ready to give answers to her should she ask you. (If you don’t have the answers, don’t worry about it. This forum will point you in the right direction.)

My wife, a cradle Catholic, throws this one at me from time to time for different reasons though. She (my wife) knows the answers. She just likes to play the devil’s advocate to spur discussion between us which I thoroughly enjoy.

Prayer is key.

 

[Tomster]

One interesting discussion to have would be that neither of you were there when the books of the bible were written. How does she know the bible is what Christians claim it is? How does she know the books are inspired, and how does she know they have been handed down without error? And how does she know no inspired books were left out?

Another great approach!

 

[Ad_Orientem]

I can think of at least three factors that may be coming into play – (1) A prophet is not accepted in his own country; (2) Like the rest of us, she’s been conditioned by our society to think in a flawed way; (3) Women tend to be more relational in their approach to religion.

Bottom line? She needs to hear the message from someone else, and not always in a direct way. I’d invite a good Catholic family over for dinner, or go to some event with them, and if it works out, start doing that regularly. Don’t make it a “convert the wife” program with interrogation sessions; just let it be casual, and let the subject of religion come up naturally, if at all. She may feel more comfortable asking a question when you step out of the room for a moment, or when she’s just talking to the other wife. The witness of their being good Catholics is something in itself, without them having to preach. The same principle of course applies to you, but she’s blind to that because you’re so close.

And of course…pray and make sacrifices. In the end, it’s the Holy Ghost that converts.

 

[DarkLight]

Unfortunately, I worry it would still come back to something along the lines of “how do you know they’re right” and “its just their interpretation” (and other ways of saying you can’t know without a doubt).

However, I will try to find more material to share with her. I hadn’t thought of that direction. It may help. Thank you!

It might be worth taking her through “how do we know anyone’s right?” How do we know ordinary historical truths? Is it any different when we’re dealing with religion?

 

[Domino427]

It might be worth taking her through “how do we know anyone’s right?” How do we know ordinary historical truths? Is it any different when we’re dealing with religion?

I may be missing something, but wouldn’t this approach lead to further her doubt and drive her further towards relativism?

 

[Nicea325]

I’m finding myself in a very difficult position right now, trying to speak to my wife about the Catholic faith. At this point, I’m afraid I may be doing more harm than good.

My wife, who grew up in a non-practicing Christian household, has been asking a lot of questions about the Catholic church lately. At first, I was excited. I’ve always prayed that she would some day want to share my faith. I’ve tried, as I’ve heard many times on CAL and Open Line to “plant the seeds” and just ask the Holy Spirit to help them grow.

I feel, at this time, she’s finding a desire to find faith. Unfortunately, the last few days I feel she’s being steered away from the Catholic faith–and I don’t know what to do, because I love her and want her to know the Truth.

She’s always been the type that needs to see/feel/etc to know something as fact, whereas belief being a personal/individual thing. This has led to comments like “you weren’t there, how do you know its not just one man’s interpretation” (ex: the authority given to Peter & the apostles, and ultimately the Church). Thus, she’s put off by the way the Church teaches it is the one and only true church, and that all others are wrong.

Finally, it all came to a head after Easter Mass. She doesn’t feel “accepted” at a Catholic Church because she can’t fully participate (Holy Eucharist), whereas if I were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn’t care if I received. I tried to explain, but it just wound up worse.

I’m afraid she’s going to wind up attending a non-denominational church with a friend. I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

Please help!

Well if your wife is claiming it is one man’s interpretation, then her position is applicable to all non-Catholic Christian churches as well.

Ask your wife to read John 14:15-19 and ask her what does she think Jesus meant?

 

[DarkLight]

I may be missing something, but wouldn’t this approach lead to further her doubt and drive her further towards relativism?

I doubt it. I mean, any approach could, but…the point is to show her that we believe all kinds of things without absolute proof. Very few people are willing to go to full relativism. How do we know that the Roman Empire existed? None of us have been there. Or what about science - how do you know that the shot the doctor gives you will help, since you didn’t see it being made or even see him fill it up? If it comes down to “you weren’t there,” you’re going to have to throw out most beliefs we all have.

 

[Tomster]

I may be missing something, but wouldn’t this approach lead to further her doubt and drive her further towards relativism?

I do not want to put words into Dark Light’s mouth, but this approach, at first, may get your wife to see the necessity of faith which has been given to her if she has been properly baptised.

 

[SubjectVerb]

Finally, it all came to a head after Easter Mass. She doesn’t feel “accepted” at a Catholic Church because she can’t fully participate (Holy Eucharist), whereas if I were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn’t care if I received. I tried to explain, but it just wound up worse.

On the Communion front, you can remind her that you had to go through preparation as child (I am assuming you were born Catholic), so for her to receive communion she has to do the same preparation. Also, to receive Communion means that those receiving Communion are “in communion” with all the Church teachings. It is much more than getting in line for a wafer…it is a statement of belief. Also, since Catholics belief in the Real Presence, we have stricter rules than Protestant churches, which believe that the communion is just a symbol. The Church also prohibits Catholics from receiving Communion at Protestant churches, so your answer to her statement that “If you were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn’t care if you received” can be “They might not care, but the Church cares, so I couldn’t anyway.”

 

[Goya]

Ask her how she knows who her mother and father are. (she was probably told, by them…); and how she knows who her grandparents were; and how she knows who her great-grandparents were…

…same with the Church.

The Apostles received the ‘Deposit of Faith’ from Christ, and passed it on to their successors, who passed in on to theirs…

…this is the significance of “Apostolic succession”–which these other ‘non-denominational’ churches lack.

…it’s also how we got the Bible in the first place.

So no, you weren’t there–but your faith is based on those who were, while ‘non-denom’ churches’ are based on some guy’s view–who didn’t come around until 15 centuries later (to the extent that they conflict with Catholic Faith, that is).

 

[Aloysium]

I’m afraid she’s going to wind up attending a non-denominational church with a friend. I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

your wife seems interested in finding faith: when you talk about Catholicism, she questions it
but she may not have the same reservations about some other faith

she did not feel a part of the Catholic community
but she is not interested in joining that community

she would prefer to go to a non-denominational church with a friend
but things came to a head after she went to church with you

i would guess that she is excluding herself from returning to the church
for reasons that she is not stating, or may not, herself realize

if this is the case, she would have to address those issues first
i do not think you will be able to convince her

if you try to reason it out, she will end up either believing that
you either think her stupid or are trying to make her stupid

if you tell her that it is the right thing to do, and she does not want to,
she will likely just hear you calling her a bad person
or think of you as a bad person

this is a difficult situation
You were married to love each other and together to love God
if one bond is broken, it can be rebuilt through the love that remains in the other
so if she loves you, she may through that love, find God
i don’t mean to question her love for you!
i mean love her more and try to understand her

 

[Jaysuitical]

Remind her that Jesus wants us to worship “in Spirit & in truth”, and she wouldn’t be doing that if she misled people about what she believes byt taking part in communion: it would be assumed by the priest & by the other people that she’s Catholic, abiding by the Catholic regulations on the Eucharist. Since in communion we’re not only receiving Christ ourselves, but making a public confession that we believe that the Host is in fact the true body & blood, soul & divinity of Jesus, consecrated by a priest empowered to do so, she would be acting as if she believed something she doesn’t believe & making a public declaration by her action that she did. This would allow you to point out the basic difference between Catholic and protestant worship. The Bible churches & protestant churches don’t view the Eucharist as the center, but only as secondary symbols of a fellowship based on common scripture.

 

[guanophore]

She’s always been the type that needs to see/feel/etc to know something as fact, whereas belief being a personal/individual thing.

Jesus made us this way. That is why He instituted the Sacraments, so that we can physically encounter Him. This is why we love the “bells and smells” of the Church, and why the Church is filled with stain glass and other artwork. We experience God through out senses as well as in the heart.

This has led to comments like “you weren’t there, how do you know its not just one man’s interpretation” (ex: the authority given to Peter & the apostles, and ultimately the Church).

This is true, even though there were 70 sent out by Jesus, and 120 in the upper room, and 3000 at Pentecost. All could have been sucked into some delusion. However, what a happy delusion! If it is all made up, it sure works great for me anyhow.

Thus, she's put off by the way the Church teaches it is the one and only true church, and that all others are wrong.

The Church does not teach this. I recommend the catechism. Just read about other religions and this will be cleared up.

 Finally, it all came to a head after Easter Mass.  She doesn't feel "accepted" at a Catholic Church because she can't fully participate (Holy Eucharist), whereas if I were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn't care if I received.  I tried to explain, but it just wound up worse.

This is actually a very good thing. She has experienced, in a very strong way, that only those who are in union with the One Faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles are admitted to the Eucharist. This is how it has been since the beginning. It means that, when she does come into the Church, her experience of Eucharist will be more profound.

I’m afraid she’s going to wind up attending a non-denominational church with a friend. I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

You have done what you can, and should, do right now. Just live your faith, and let her see the “reality” in your attitude, and the fruit of the Spirit in your life. This is how she will encounter Jesus in His Church.

 Please help!

You don’t need help, you are doing great. Just keep reading the catechism and keep learning more about your faith here on CAF.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Unfortunately, I worry it would still come back to something along the lines of “how do you know they’re right” and “its just their interpretation” (and other ways of saying you can’t know without a doubt).

However, I will try to find more material to share with her. I hadn’t thought of that direction. It may help. Thank you!

Actually, there are writings from Church fathers that were actually taught by the disciples. Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome are two. The Didache (which commands that un-baptized people be prevented from receiving Communion) was written in the 1st century, as well. They believe it was by followers of the disciple Matthew.

After Ignatius and Clement comes Justin the Martyr, who wrote about baptism and the Eucharist and even the Liturgy. Then come Ireneaus, who writes about Sacred Tradition and the primacy of Rome. After him are some I haven’t gotten around to in depth, but Tertullian (pre-apostasy, obviously), Cyprian, and others would be useful.

When the fathers are brought to light, and one looks at the consistent history of the Church, it is easy to see that, while they weren’t infallible as individuals, they were the same Church that ours is, and decided upon difficult theological decisions in the same way. We are the very Church of the Apostles.

Additionally, you could turn the question on her: she has provided no evidence that would satisfy her own argument. SHE wasn’t there, and SHE has no evidence as to which random Protestant denomination is correct, because all she has is the hearsay and personal interpretation of other men who ‘weren’t there’.

Then the unity of the Catholic Church could be brought up, and the importance of Sacred Tradition. There’s a reason we don’t go solely based on the Bible: theological questions have arisen throughout history that were not satisfactorily answered by Scripture alone, and needed that Church which Scripture refers to as ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’ to determine, well… uh… the truth.

If she is upset about not feeling welcome, point out that Paul recommends expelling brethren who persist in obstinance. Can’t think of the epistle or verse, but the Apostles were pretty good about ‘shaking the dust from their sandals’ and moving on, and rebuking those in error. Her eternal soul is more important than her comfort.

 

[Joy2day]

I think it is a pretty big leap for her to take on catholicism given her background & naturally she will have these type of questions. I wouldnt try to get her to understand that her eternal soul is at stake if she doesnt suffer through unacceptance at the catholic mass because of the eucharist. There is truth in the other christian denominations & in other religions, just not the full truth about Christ. It is good that she is going to church. Mostly I think in this sort of situation, more can be gained via a teaspoon of honey than of vinegar & so it shouldnt become a debate about facts and ‘whos right’. In the other denomination etc she might find a good samaritan. If she continues to see the joy your faith brings you, time may bring her to the catholic church. Just my opinion & 2cents.

 

[loramaca]

Tell her to open the gates of her soul. If she opens the gates Holy Spirit will come in.