"You Weren't There, How Do You Know For Sure"

[Koineman]

She’s always been the type that needs to see/feel/etc to know something as fact, whereas belief being a personal/individual thing. This has led to comments like “you weren’t there, how do you know its not just one man’s interpretation”

That’s essentially a historical question. So ask her how she knows that George Washington was the first president of the United States, or that Lincoln gave the Gettysburg address, or that Martin Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg church door in 1517, and so on. If she accepts those events without questioning them, why not accept this one, too?

Also, regarding it being one man’s interpretation, she will also have to rely on her own interpretation, whether she agrees with the Catholic view or disagrees with it.

(ex: the authority given to Peter & the apostles, and ultimately the Church). Thus, she’s put off by the way the Church teaches it is the one and only true church, and that all others are wrong.

It seems like she’s viewing this through the grid of contemporary pluralism and relativism, i.e., all views are okay, so nobody has the right to say that others are wrong.

 

[mcrts]

As others have mentioned…CCC, and early church fathers are fundamental.

E.W.T.N’s the Journey Home program features many non denominational Christians who have come into the fullness of the faith. I do think they are worth checking out.

Also I’ve heard that Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s Rome Sweet Home are a convert must read!

Praying for you and your wife!

God Bless,
MC

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Finally, it all came to a head after Easter Mass. She doesn’t feel “accepted” at a Catholic Church because she can’t fully participate (Holy Eucharist), whereas if I were to go to a Protestant church, they wouldn’t care if I received. I tried to explain, but it just wound up worse.

Well brother, Christ didn’t have an open house on the Last Supper. It was a private and significant event.

Justin Martyr - 1st Apology: (AD 100–ca.165)(Keep in mind that the Apostle John died approx. 90 AD)

CHAPTER LXVI – OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

This is less than 100 years after the last Apostle passes away.

Here’s the entire text: Justin Martyr 1st Apology

Clement of Rome wrote in His Letter to the Corinthians: (You know the guy mentioned in Philippians 4:2 I entreat Eu-o′dia and I entreat Syn′tyche to agree in the Lord. 3 And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with **Clement **and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.)

CHAPTER 44 – THE ORDINANCES OF THE APOSTLES, THAT THERE MIGHT BE NO CONTENTION RESPECTING THE PRIESTLY OFFICE.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

This guy learned straight from Paul.

To be continued…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Continued from post #23

Irenaeus of Lyons (Writing ca. 165-175AD)

Chapter XX.—Those pastors are to be heard to whom the apostles committed the Churches, possessing one and the same doctrine of salvation; the heretics, on the other hand, are to be avoided. We must think soberly with regard to the mysteries of the faith.

1. Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist.4622 Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, inharmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth.4623 It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, “Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,”4624 that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord. For these men do profess that they have themselves the knowledge of good and evil; and they set their own impious minds above the God who made them. They therefore form opinions on what is beyond the limits of the understanding. For this cause also the apostle says, “Be not wise beyond what it is fitting to be wise, but be wise prudently,”4625 that we be not cast forth by eating of the “knowledge” of these men (that knowledge which knows more than it should do) from the paradise of life. Into this paradise the Lord has introduced those who obey His call, “summing up in Himself all things which are in heaven, and which are on earth;”4626 but the things in heaven are spiritual, while those on earth constitute the dispensation in human nature (secundum hominem est dispositio). These things, therefore, He recapitulated in Himself: by uniting man to the Spirit, and causing the Spirit to dwell in man, He is Himself made the head of the Spirit, and gives the Spirit to be the head of man: for through Him (the Spirit) we see, and hear, and speak.

And there’s a lot more from here. You see the Catholic Church has a continued line of succession since the Apostles, it is the world’s witness to Christ and Scriptures.

I’m afraid she’s going to wind up attending a non-denominational church with a friend. I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

Please help!

Your walk and conviction will help you both in your Faith walk. Find a Priest and talk about this things.

May God Bless you on you journey.

In Christ our Lord.

 

[guanophore]

Tell her to open the gates of her soul. If she opens the gates Holy Spirit will come in.

This is really the best advice. We all need to experience God personally, tangibly, and meaningfully.

He is within us, as we are made in His image and likeness. If we are willing, we will find that He is as close to us as our own breath. He comes to us in our dreams, and in the desires of our hearts.

Acts 17:26-28
…He made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him — though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’

Matt 7:7-11

"Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Rev 3:20-21
0 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.

 

[jochoa]

I don’t know what to do at this point, and how to explain all this to her in a way that doesn’t just come back to “it’s just your (church’s) interpretation–you weren’t there so how do you know?”

Please help!

What a challenging struggle to be in my friend?!?! When in doubt, learn to master patience and kindness for Christ and His Church, especially towards your wife!

Here is one out-there idea to consider.

“You weren’t there, how do you know for sure?”
First make sure you know for sure by spiritually being one with the Father and the Son.
You can know by considering God, as the Creator of everything: If you were the person who created everything, what would you create and why would you create it?

The pinnacle creation will be True Friends, which is why Jesus lays His life down for friends, for the experience of unending joy with unbreakable peace.

Then ponder what must happen in order to create true friends while you are the only thing in existence.

The solution I worked out revealed the following:
In order to create these true friends, you will have to be all the persons stated in the Nicene Creed (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Church).
The rules followed by all in the heavenly kingdom is the Greatest Commandment.
The divine rules in the earthly kingdom are the Sacraments.
The story of all that happens to complete creation is the Holy Bible.

May your journey to Heaven be as peaceful as possible!

 

[Ion]

Personal interpretation…this is like a “fata morgana”; do you imagine that they start reading everything on their own and then conclude the truth? Doesn’t work because the understanding doesn’t come right away, and they always look up for advice/teaching from somebody;unfortunately understanding and meaning can be “pushed” toward the way we like it; finaly it is not their “personal interpretation” but a eclectic make up from a multitude of souces; usualy the most charming and charismatic the preacher the greater the multitude of his ideeas…
There is no comparation with the Catholic Church

 

[guanophore]

Yikes!
Wouldn’t want one to be too rational, now !!


.

Indeed not. Sometimes the rationality of humans can interfere with a relationship with God.

Mark 10:14-16
“Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. 15 Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it.” 16 And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them.

A sense of curiosity, wonder, and openness to the unexpected is needed, and too much thinking can really squash that stuff.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Indeed not. Sometimes the rationality of humans can interfere with a relationship with God.

Ain’t that the truth


Lord Jesus, please keep the spirits of pride and rebellion away from me and make my heart one of humbleness and my mind subject to your will. Amen.