Young Catholics Causing Rebirth of Tridentine Mass

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I don’t have to “square” anything. I just want to be able to understand the Mass without having to learn Latin.
 
stpurl said:
Why can’t people just appreciate that many many people love and are nourished by the OF, and ALSO appreciate that many people are loving and being nourished by the EF?
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Because of the constant divisive posts on the topic.
 
Because some Catholics have been trying to return the Church to Latin ever since Vatican II changed things.
I may be wrong in saying this, but I believe that the Vatican City is the only place in world where Latin is spoken. Though the Italian language is close to Latin, it is not the same language.
 
Entwhistler said:
I shall reiterate what I say every time I comment on an OF vs. EF thread.

I go to an EF Mass because most of the OF Masses around me can’t compete with the EF in terms of reverence and beauty.

Now, is that intrinsic to the OF Mass? I would say “No.” There are beautiful OF Masses in many places. Clear Creek Monastery in Oklahoma. Many liberal arts Catholics colleges.

But most of the OF Masses surrounding me at least can’t really compare to the EF. Such a sad state indeed.

Not the fault of the OF intrinsically. I blame lackluster seminaries and bad formation.
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Well said! I can enjoy both forms. I unfortunately can say I’ve been to EF masses that were disappointing as well. Clear creek is EF though! And an awesome one at that!
 
I can appreciate the argument for the vernacular about Mass being more understandable. The problem I see is that the Church didn’t just translate the Mass into the vernacular, but along with the vernacular it introduced a new veil in Latin’s place–one that for me and many others has been more obscuring of understanding (just check the surveys on belief in the real presence or Mass as a sacrifice). Through the simplification and elimination of many prayers which made explicit what Mass really is and of symbolic actions which conveyed those same truths in their own way, there was a lot less there to understand in the vernacular. I know for me personally, I didn’t really understand what Mass really was until attending the TLM/EF. Going back the nO/OF I knew better what I was looking for and it helped me see the reality of Mass there too, even though it was not as readily apparent or obvious (even apart from the extrinsic problems that plague so many celebrations of it–do many priests also no longer understand what Mass really is?).
 
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Well, we (I’m not singling you out, I’m using the generic ‘we’) can be part of the solution by refusing to let divisive posts ‘go’ or ‘feeding them’. The more people greet the minority (on both sides, let it be said) of posts that even if they start off OK begin to get argumentative by either stony silence, pointedly positive posts that affirm BOTH rites, or just ‘dogpile on’ variations of, “the O.F. and the E.F. are equally valid and preferring one is not rejecting the other OR disrespecting someone who chooses differently”, the more we’ll wind up weeding out divisive posts. If nobody ‘validates’ the extremes (either way) and everybody is calmly stating, “They’re both fine, whatever one chooses is one’s right and is not disrespecting the other OR the person who chooses”, then sooner or later ONLY the problem poster is flagged, and not a bunch of people, the thread is a positive one instead of yet another excuse to say, “See, I TOLD you the trad/progs are just troublemakers”.
 
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Not to stir the pot, but you do realize that according to the actual documents in Vatican II, Latin was never supposed to be 'done away with?" That’s why in many O.F. Masses the people say the Greek Kyrie, and the Latin Credo, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, etc., and the priest will often say, and the people respond, with Latin in other parts, including the lead-in to the Sanctus, i.e. (Priest) Dominus vobiscum . (People) Et cum spiritu tuo. (Priest) Sursum corda. (People) Habemus et Dominum (etc.)
 
The problems start with threads/posts that are less about extolling the virtues of the EF Mass then they are about bashing everything the poster hates about the OF Mass. Rinse and repeat.
 
Or. . .and you know this happens frequently. . .when another poster ‘sees’ the post about the EF as ‘bashing the OF’, and then lambasts first the EF itself with how it is incomprehensible, was never really as reverent as ‘they say it was’, and then starts to attack the POSTER with, "and I have always found the EF people to be nasty intolerant types (insert story about female relative who ‘had to put a kleenex on her head’ or was 'shamed for wearing pants), and . . .

Then it just turns into charge-counter charge, instead of the poster who felt the original EF ‘like’ was ‘bashing’ deciding to PM the poster and expressing his or her feelings, allowing for mutual respectful dialogue.
 
That is an uncanny synopsis.

As I said…divisive posts. Literally I only came here to make that comment, because it’s a circular argument. It doesn’t really matter who likes when and spoken how, as long as it’s licit.

And any post on this subject always ends up divisive.
 
Whenever words like “not to stir the pot” precede the start of any post, you can bet the pot is about to be stirred.
Just state your opinion, but don’t try to justify your statement in some way by stating that you aren’t trying to stir the pot.
 
sko said:
I don’t mean this to be rude or condescending in any way, but do you believe that it was wrong for the Church to say Mass exclusively in Latin for at least a millenium and a half
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I don’t know where you got this information, but it just isn’t correct.

The Diocese of Rome adopted the vernacular (Latin) about that long ago. Many other dioceses used the liturgy of Rome throughout the following centuries. However, Latin did not become universal in the West until Trent.

hawk
 
YourNameHere said:
I believe that the Vatican City is the only place in world where Latin is spoken
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That is incorrect.

Before recent decades, Latin was widely used outside of the Catholic Church as well as the Vatican.

Most of our states have Latin slogans, the language is used extensively in medicine, and law , commerce and other fields of endeavor. Many of your top cigarette brands adopted Latin slogans to add class , e.g. “In Hoc Signo Vinces”
 
I am not talking about slogans and mottos, I speak of actually speaking Latin.
Not Italian, spanish or other languages that may have descended from Latin.
Many words in many languages are rooted in Latin, but the languages are NOT Latin.
 
Augustinian said:
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YourNameHere:
I believe that the Vatican City is the only place in world where Latin is spoken
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That is incorrect.

Before recent decades, Latin was widely used outside of the Catholic Church as well as the Vatican.

Most of our states have Latin slogans, the language is used extensively in medicine, and law , commerce and other fields of endeavor. Many of your top cigarette brands adopted Latin slogans to add class , e.g. “In Hoc Signo Vinces”
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I really doubt there is one place on this earth where Latin is spoken conversationally. I can’t say in all the places I’ve ever been I’ve walked around hearing people conversing solely in Latin. You wouldn’t need a degree in it to realize that was being spoken, either. It’s pretty distinctive.

I took that post as meaning just that - and YNH is most likely correct.
 
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The Liturgy was said in Aramaic, Greek, Church Slavonic, and other languages for the 1st 1,000 years of the Church. In fact, even in the Catholic Church, before Vatican II, the Eastern Catholic Churches did not use Latin in their Liturgy. They used Greek or Church Slavonic or another form.
 
Not exactly the same arena, but I think there might be studies showing that Latin helps kids learn logical or analytical thinking. Wouldn’t surprise me, anyway.

And kids could have a whole, sophisticated and expressive language that their parents couldn’t understand. Instead of the language they already use that their parents can’t understand.
 
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Pup7 said:
I really doubt there is one place on this earth where Latin is spoken conversationally.
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Wyoming Catholic College 🤣
Canvas said:
In fact, even in the Catholic Church, before Vatican II, the Eastern Catholic Churches did not use Latin in their Liturgy.
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We haven 't used it after, either . . .
They used Greek or Church Slavonic or another form.
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We also starting moving to the vernacular in the US in the early 50s–and handled it much better than the RCC.

Rather than “shazam! new liturgy, and a different language, too!”, we started with a single prayer or part in both slavonic and english, rotating which it was, eventually adding more, eventually using just english on some, and after a couple of decades, being pretty much all english.

We didn’t get a backlash like the west did . . . (well, ok, until not even a single verse of a hymn, ever, in slavonic. )

hawk
 
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