C
CradleCath
Guest
You are SO blessed.
- Status
B
bkovacs
Guest
The so called Mass we have today is not Catholic in my opinion and is not in the spirit of the Council. Only the spirit of liberals. Look at the Divine Liturgies of St John Chrysostom, St Basil the Great, St James, St Gregory the Illuminator, Ambrosian Rite Mass, Coptic and Ethiopian Liturgies and our own Tridentine Mass or as I like to call it the Liturgy of St Gregory the Great All similar in reverence, beauty, tradition, and sacredness. Compare those with the NO Mass so mainstream today. Very protestant like and not similar at all. Of all the Liturgies or Masses I mentioned. Only the NO Mass has the priest facing the people, not God, and has guitar music, and laity doing the job of the clergy (handing out communion). And where is the high altar in a NO Mass or the Holy of Holies.
C
CradleCath
Guest
Are you saying that Pope Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo that many of us pray today? With CITH, EXTRAordinary Eucharistic Ministers used in ordinary circumstances? Altar girls?
NO Latin, no Gregorian Chant??
The authority I use in determining whether the priests at the parish I used to attend are following the intent of the Council & more importantly the Holy Father…are the documents of Vatican II. Have you read them? You do realize that neither the council nor the Holy Father said that the Mass must be said completely in the vernaculur. They didn’t say that Communion was to be given in the hand. They didn’t say that Gregorian Chant was to be replaced by Bob Dylan, nor did either the council or the Pope say that EEM’s were to be used regularly…so regularly that a schedule must be drawn up so that they will know when they are to serve.
Now, most intelligent & knowlegeable Catholics believe that if the council & the Pope had specifically wanted the above changes (i.e. No Latin in the Mass & no Sacred Music, CITH instead of on the tongue, the use of EEM’s to be universal…under any & all circumstances, etc.)…
#1. They would have addressed these concerns, in a clear cut way…without ambiguity…as previous councils have addressed issues that required change or definition.
#2. The self-same issues that appear in every Novus Ordo Mass that I have attended for the last 40 yrs…Communion in the Hand & the disregard for the discipline that calls for only males to serve at the altar would not have required an indult & special permission in order to be considered “legal”.
Hopefully you’ll explain what you mean by “sloppily done”.
So, you are saying that MOST of the Novus Ordo Masses you’ve attended, included Latin, Gregorian Chant, Altar BOYS only, CITH & the use EEM’s** only** under extraordinary circumstances. Is that correct?? If so, do you believe that because you haven’t experienced this, it doesn’t exist?
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
R
rayne89
Guest
I don’t know what Eucharistic prayer number three is so I don’t know if we use it.(I assume there is a one and two?)
We have some latin at Mass about 50% of the time, we also have some Gregorian Chant about 50% of the time. I’d say at least 90% of the parishioners receive on the tongue.
We have some latin at Mass about 50% of the time, we also have some Gregorian Chant about 50% of the time. I’d say at least 90% of the parishioners receive on the tongue.
N
ncjohn
Guest
What you seem to be missing is that the documents of Vatican II didn’t specify any of those things EITHER way. It simply laid out rough guidelines from which the commission and the competent ecclesiastical authorities would determine the form best suited to the people.
All of the things you’ve noted are disciplinary matters that are at the discretion of the Pope, and all of them are items that have been approved by the Popes. There is no mandate from the Council that would prohibit a Pope from introducing or approving such things, and to declare that a Mass is not in accordance with the Council because Popes have exercised their legitimate authority shows a lack of understanding of how liturgy works.
You may not like some of those changes, and you are certainly entitled to that opinion, but to try to imply that the Popes are being unfaithful to the Council in some way is just not true. And as I said previously, where abuses occur to what is approved, there are mechanisms in place to deal with them without trying to declare the Mass to be somehow “wrong”.
Peace,
J
justinkolo
Guest
cool. I don’t remember all of #3 but it contains the words “From age to age You gather a people to yourself, so that from East to West a perfect offering may be made to the glory of Your Name”… and some other wordsI don’t know what Eucharistic prayer number three is so I don’t know if we use it.(I assume there is a one and two?)
We have some latin at Mass about 50% of the time, we also have some Gregorian Chant about 50% of the time. I’d say at least 90% of the parishioners receive on the tongue.
Now, I have heard at least one priest substitute “from the rising of the sun to its setting” for “from East to West”, which ironically is more accurate but not what was approved.
M
m134e5
Guest
No. It is unfortunate that many Novus Ordos are celebrated this way today.
The parish does not have the resources to make solemn liturgies (particularly not the Tridentine Mass), and the pastor- God bless him- got a bit too anxious to celebrate the Tridentine Mass at the parish, and didn’t give himself enough time to learn it well- or give others enough time or resources to make the liturgy as solemn as possible. I am sorry- I cannot go into further detail without discussing the shortcomings of various people there, and it is a sin to reveal the faults of another without good reason.
I am no modernist. I **can’t stand **communion in the hand, or the practice of allowing lay people to distribute communion- for *any *reason (if communion takes awhile, it would be a great time to pray for more priests). I think altar girls are a bad idea because it waves something a girl can never have right in her face- and, there is a sense of comraderie among the altar boys and the priests that they don’t quite have when you put girls into the mix- it’s like a fraternity. I prefer to only have traditional hymns and polyphony at Mass- no modern music (unless of course it is a modern piece of music written in a traditional style). I personally do not care for Gregorian Chant, but I accept that the Church holds it in high esteem- and I believe that, for that reason, it should be respected and used frequently (as long as it can be done well) in the liturgy for that reason.
I also love the Tridentine Mass. A visit to Saint John Cantius church, in Chicago- which has a pretty good-sized Latin Mass community- was the highlight of a summer vacation I took to that area a few years ago. When I found out Bishop Finn was going to celebrate a Tridentine Mass at the Cathedral in Kansas City shortly after Summorum Pontificum was released, I immediately made plans to go to it- I wouldn’t have missed it for the world, and it was wonderful.
P
pnewton
Guest
Better yet, what does the liturgy of the current Mass form have to do with traditional catholicism? I thought this forum was for discussion of traditional catholicism, not the current Mass form. Or is the answer too obnvious?
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
When one who is not a member of the magisterium, questions whether a mass form is faithful to the council, I think it would indeed be germaine to the issue a to the validity of the council, especially since it has been approved by the USCCB and since the Pope himself used this mass form when here in the United States.
L
LUISV
Guest
Thank you Deacon Ed. Well stated. Irrespective of the laxity to form present in many US Catholic churches the valididty of the Eucaristic sacrafice has not changed. I was raised in a Scolapian parish among clergy new to the NO rite. We celebrated mass in Spanish and it this form of the NO that became ingrained into my soul. My priests were old world missionaries in Los Angeles CA. They gave me a deep appreciation from the solemnity of the Mass that has since faded in the united states. I consider myself lucky in being old enough to have experienced the NO as it was meant to be. A solemn Rite, simplified for the people yet retaining the majesty of the Tridentine Rite. Now I find myself in among the majority here in the US, estranged from the church. It hurts me to go to mass. I can’t stand the music. Simple as that. Girl alter servers, hard one but I got over it. Eucaristic ministers, I do not like taking communion from them even though my mother is one. Mass has become a Sunday matinee and one I have dificulty explaining to my sons. I guess on the bright side, my Protestant wife doen’t miss her church, Catholic worship has become so general. Mabey it was providence that brought me to San Antonio. Archbishop Gomez is becoming a hero of mine in his acceptance of older Rites into the Archdiocese. We even have an Anglican Use Parish that celebrates both the Anglican Use(English) and the Pre-62 Pauline Mass. Mabey I can find a home
among these remants as the US bishops continue to allow change and drain the solemnity from the Mass.
B
bkovacs
Guest
“since it has been approved by the USCCB”. Most are liturgical liberals.
“Pope himself used this mass form when here in the United States”
He had no choice!. Did he choose the music debacle for Washington. NO!.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Excuse me, but I do find this incredulous.
B
bkovacs
Guest
He wanted to use the TLM deep down in his heart. But he didn’t want to offend all those liberal Bishops in the crowd.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
And I assume he told you this, or did you read his mind from a distance?
B
bkovacs
Guest
Telepathy!
M
maryjk
Guest
First let me admit that I did NOT read through every post.
But, I did read through the Eucharistic Prayers. They all sound like something I have heard, lets say in the past month or so. Our Priest tends to mix it up. According to my son, an altar server, you never know which one he is going to use.
We also have some Latin. The first mass on Sunday has the most, and the mass that most of the children attend uses Latin only during Lent. During Lent, all masses use some Latin.
Again the first mass on Sunday also uses chant, what seems like every mass. (Something I personally don’t like, but can avoid, by attending a different mass.) Chant is used sometimes in all the masses.
Receiving on the tongue or in the hand is up to you. And our Priest can roll with the punches on that. For years, I received in the hand. But on two occasions, my hands were dirty. Of course, those times I received on the tongue. Our Priest didn’t bat an eye. Now, I always receive on the tongue. I receive the low gluten host, and it can be very crumbly.
We do use Extraordinary Ministers at every Mass. We are very crowded at every mass. And masses are back up against each other. We would never get out in time for the next mass if we didn’t. There is no room to receive at a rail, for those that want to offer that as a solution. We also have one priest, so there aren’t other priests that could show up to help with communion. We have “broken ground” for the new church. But I don’t know if that will help. Since we will still have the same number of people attending if not more.
But, I did read through the Eucharistic Prayers. They all sound like something I have heard, lets say in the past month or so. Our Priest tends to mix it up. According to my son, an altar server, you never know which one he is going to use.
We also have some Latin. The first mass on Sunday has the most, and the mass that most of the children attend uses Latin only during Lent. During Lent, all masses use some Latin.
Again the first mass on Sunday also uses chant, what seems like every mass. (Something I personally don’t like, but can avoid, by attending a different mass.) Chant is used sometimes in all the masses.
Receiving on the tongue or in the hand is up to you. And our Priest can roll with the punches on that. For years, I received in the hand. But on two occasions, my hands were dirty. Of course, those times I received on the tongue. Our Priest didn’t bat an eye. Now, I always receive on the tongue. I receive the low gluten host, and it can be very crumbly.
We do use Extraordinary Ministers at every Mass. We are very crowded at every mass. And masses are back up against each other. We would never get out in time for the next mass if we didn’t. There is no room to receive at a rail, for those that want to offer that as a solution. We also have one priest, so there aren’t other priests that could show up to help with communion. We have “broken ground” for the new church. But I don’t know if that will help. Since we will still have the same number of people attending if not more.
A
AJV
Guest
Sorry I just have to nitpick. It was giving me sleepless nights.Remember that at the time of the Council, the Missale Romanum of 1962 was alive and well. The 3 “alternate” EPs made their debut in 1970 with the Novus Ordo (oh, horrors … I used that expression again
The 3 "alternate EP’s made their debut in 1968. One thing I found interesting about that original document was that it preserved some of the modified rubrical gestures of the Canon as it existed then for the new Eucharistic Prayers. Thus for example, the celebrant had to bow during the words “May all of us who share…” in EP II a la the Supplices te rogamus.
M
malphono
Guest
It may well be, that they were released in advance of the complete Novus Ordo. Whatever, my first exposure to the “alternate EPs” was either in late 1969 or early 1970.Sorry I just have to nitpick. It was giving me sleepless nights.
The 3 "alternate EP’s made their debut in 1968. One thing I found interesting about that original document was that it preserved some of the modified rubrical gestures of the Canon as it existed then for the new Eucharistic Prayers. Thus for example, the celebrant had to bow during the words “May all of us who share…” in EP II a la the Supplices te rogamus.
BTW, where did you find that little tidbit about the debut?
C
Cider
Guest
none of the above
- Status