Your Notre Dame Mormon on Testimony

[NotreDameMormon]

How do you know your Church is actually “true?” How do you refute the evidences against it? Do you, as a Mormon, understand your Church and its teachings to have as objectively a solid foundation as the Catholic Church and its teachings?

Thank you all for your questions.

The direct answers are:

1. 
   *]By witness of the Spirit, study, and experience.
   *]Evidence is not truth, though it may lead to it. There is more than enough evidence to support the claims of the Church and God makes up the difference.
   *]Yes.
   
   In an earlier discussion I mentioned that faith is the vehicle by which God progresses His children. There seems to be just enough objective evidence substantiating the existence of God to inspire and confirm faith and just enough questionable or lacking evidence to require it. A necessary part of serving and becoming like God is learning to choose good over evil. The LDS call this divine gift of free will “agency.”
   
   To the youth of the Church the LDS Apostles have said,
   “Your Heavenly Father has given you agency, the ability to choose right from wrong and to act for yourself. You have been given the Holy Ghost to help you know good from evil. While you are here on earth, you are being proven to see if you will use your agency to show your love for God by keeping His commandments…Wrong choices delay your progression and lead to heartache and misery. Right choices lead to happiness and eternal life. That is why it is so important for you to choose what is right throughout your life.” For the Strength of Youth, Agency and Accountability, 4.
   
   It is my understanding that the guidance of the Holy Ghost is key to God’s love and direction for His children. Through the impressions of the Holy Spirit, God is able to guide His children without robbing them of their agency. Were God to just appear and state the correct choice, man would be accountable for a perfect knowledge of the truth and that obligation would never allow him to actually choose good (or God) for himself.
   Christ and his Apostles clearly taught that the Holy Ghost is the testifier of truth and disseminator of the knowledge of God and Christ.
   
   “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14:26)
   
   “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me” (John 15:26)
   
   “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:13)
   
   “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:16–17)
   
   The Holy Ghost operates through impression and intelligence resulting in godly attributes and knowledge. The Spirit opens the heart and the mind. The Apostle Paul said the fruit of the Spirit is “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance and that “the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.” (Gal. 5:22, Eph 5:9)
   
   While the Holy Ghost operates with subtly and influence, for those who are truly listening for it and seeking God’s will, the Spirit can be a witness of great power. One prophet of the LDS Church put it this way:
   
   “When a man has the manifestation from the Holy Ghost, it leaves an indelible impression on his soul, one that is not easily erased. It is Spirit speaking to spirit, and it comes with convincing force. A manifestation of an angel, or even the Son of God himself, would impress the eye and mind, and eventually become dimmed, but the impressions of the Holy Ghost sink deeper into the soul and are more difficult to erase.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:151.
   
   …continued below…

 

[NotreDameMormon]

The LDS call the witness of the Spirit and the resulting knowledge a “testimony.”

“A testimony is based on revelation from the Holy Ghost. It comes when the Spirit of the Lord speaks to our heart, mind, and spirit and confirms truth to us (see D&C 8:2–3). Christ explained to Peter that his testimony did not come from any human source, but from God (see Matthew 16:13–17). Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Part A, Gospel Principles and Doctrines, 26: A Testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, 192

“Simply stated, testimony—real testimony, born of the Spirit and confirmed by the Holy Ghost—changes lives. It changes how you think and what you do. It changes what you say. It affects every priority you set and every choice you make. To have a real and abiding testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be “spiritually … born of God,” to “[receive] his image in your countenances,” and to experience a “mighty change in your hearts” (Alma 5:14).” M. Russell Ballard, “Pure Testimony,” Ensign, Nov. 2004, 40

“Individual testimonies are the foundation and strength of the Church. Our testimony provides a guiding light that leads to a commitment which directs our conduct and our way of life. Our testimony is true north on a spiritual compass. It is a moving force that cannot be seen but can truly be felt. It is a burning within that tells us what is right. It is when “your heart tells you things your mind doesn’t know” Robert D. Hales, “The Importance of Receiving a Personal Testimony,” Ensign, Nov. 1994, 20

Many people criticize members of the LDS Church for their reliance on a testimony of the Spirit as the foundation of their faith and membership in the Church. This is unfortunate. It clearly the method God has chosen and taught for the growth and development of His children.

To the Corinthians, Paul said:

“My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit … “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. … “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. … “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:4–5, 9–10, 14)

When Christ revisited His chosen Apostles it was the Spirit that revealed His truth.

“And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24:30-32)

Objective evidence, scripture, and truth wherever you find it, all bear witness of the truthfulness of the existence and plan of God, of Christ, His Atonement, and His Gospel. Members of the LDS Church use all truth to feed and nourish their testimony of Christ and His Church.

The current LDS prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley taught: “I promise you that if you will read the words of that writing which we call scripture, there will come into your heart an understanding and a warmth that will be pleasing to experience. … Read, for instance, the Gospel of John from its beginning to its end. Let the Lord speak for himself to you, and his words will come with a quiet conviction that will make the words of his critics meaningless.” The Miracle That Is Jesus,” Improvement Era, June 1966, 531.

Also important for the LDS is the promise that “by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matt. 17:20) Members find in the Church, its teachings, and its programs the Gospel of Christ put into practice. They enjoy the blessings of living the Gospel and find the Lord in all aspects of their lives. This further adds to the strength of their Spirit born testimony. The members learn the reality of Christ’s promise that “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

Thanks, again, for your questions.

If you have any follow-up questions or any new questions about the LDS faith and practice, please send me a personal message and I will respond to your questions next Sunday.

Thank you.

 

[christianley]

Can we even take this person seriously anymore? I don’t see any interest in having a dialogue here. He is just spitting out Mormon propaganda. Mormons reject Jesus as God, they reject Jesus’ real presence in the Eucharist, they reject the authority of the church Christ founded and claim it apostatized, and they do so based on receiving the warm fuzzies of a Mormon testimony. These warm fuzzies keep them from really considering the truth of Christ’s ancient Catholic Church even when they are shown compelling evidence that Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon are complete frauds. The mtDna evidence ought to be more than enough to have completely debunked the Book of Mormon. I suggest everyone look at these two videos and see for yourself how absolutely empty the claims of Mormonism are:

lhvm.org/vid_dna_med.htm

lhvm.org/vid_bible_med.htm

The LDS call the witness of the Spirit and the resulting knowledge a “testimony.”

“A testimony is based on revelation from the Holy Ghost. It comes when the Spirit of the Lord speaks to our heart, mind, and spirit and confirms truth to us (see D&C 8:2–3). Christ explained to Peter that his testimony did not come from any human source, but from God (see Matthew 16:13–17). Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Part A, Gospel Principles and Doctrines, 26: A Testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, 192

 

[zerinus]

Can we even take this person seriously anymore?

I do!

I don’t see any interest in having a dialogue here.

I do!

He is just spitting out Mormon propaganda.

You are saying that because you have no answer for him!

Mormons reject Jesus as God,

False!

they reject Jesus’ real presence in the Eucharist,

True!

they reject the authority of the church Christ founded and claim it apostatized,

True!

and they do so based on receiving the warm fuzzies of a Mormon testimony.

False!

These warm fuzzies keep them from really considering the truth of Christ’s ancient Catholic Church even when they are shown compelling evidence that Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon are complete frauds.

False!

The mtDna evidence ought to be more than enough to have completely debunked the Book of Mormon.

False!

I suggest everyone look at these two videos and see for yourself how absolutely empty the claims of Mormonism are:

Yes, if you want to be decived!

zerinus

 

[majick275]

I find it of interest that while these diverse and redundant sources all paint of picture of the “testimony” as being some prophetic statement to the world based on divine revelation, in practice we see little kids drug up to the stand to parrot the standard lines. It seems more inculcation than revelation… and that’s not even getting into the thankimonies, rants and ramblings.

These are no different than amway meetings where everyone tries to pump each other up with the guarantee of success. only instead of getting rich you beceome a God.

 

[majick275]

amgid do we need to repost your infamous “revelation” that your own sources proved mormonism false?

 

[MrS]

Interesting comment from a bible study last night…

If one tries honestly to study the Catholic Scriptures, you must come to the conclusion that the words are God’s words telling us who He is… we need all the grace and help of the Church to even understand some in our limited time here

If one tries honestly to study the Book of Mormon, or the Koran, or the WatchTower, you must come to the conclusion that the words are man’s words telling us who man thinks God should be.

Sadly, this latter conclusion is also evident in the commentaries of most non-Catholics.

.

 

[christianley]

I find it of interest that while these diverse and redundant sources all paint of picture of the “testimony” as being some prophetic statement to the world based on divine revelation, in practice we see little kids drug up to the stand to parrot the standard lines. It seems more inculcation than revelation… and that’s not even getting into the thankimonies, rants and ramblings.

These are no different than amway meetings where everyone tries to pump each other up with the guarantee of success. only instead of getting rich you beceome a God.

The normal Mormon fast and testimony has the same 10 kids get up and tell us how the church is true and they love their mommy and daddy. A few adults (usually the same ones) get up and testify the Church is true. Very rarely one of them might say something about Jesus. And often the testimony is only telling people how happy they are for the church and how the community supports them. Jesus always seems to be an afterthought in the vast majority of Mormon testimonies if Jesus is mentioned at all. I’ve been attending Mormon meetings for 34 years and the main topics are almost always Joseph Smith and the LDS Church and the apostasy. Occasionally, they testify of Jesus, but it is not the same Jesus that Christians worship.

 

[jediliz]

Not convinced, Notre Dame Mormon.

I’ve been a Catholic since birth and I am not interested in

~ Becoming a “god”
~ Owning my own planet
~ Giving up my Catholic faith and trying to persuade other catholics and protestants that the church was in Apostasy.

Thank God for my 12 years of Catholic education!

I can tell you this - becoming “gods” or “like god” is a violation of the FIRST commandment -

I am the Lord thy God, you shall not have any other gods besides me.

 

[Integritus]

Hello to all:

A weekly thread titled “Your Norte Dame Mormon” is really an attempt to undermine one of the leading Catholic educational institutions of this country, here on the most popular Catholic forums on the Internet. And very easily, Catholics fall into this trap of Christian relativism. The dialogue isn’t a problem; the weekly and enduring thread with title “Your Norte Dame [insert non-Christian here]” plus repeated unilateral propaganda is.

Several weeks ago I invited 2 young Mormon missionaries into my home. At one point in the conversation, I asked the young boys, “Have you been taught, or believe, that the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Catholic Church is the Horde of Babylon?”.

The Mormons’ reply: “No” to the first question (with great hesitation). “Yes” to the second question. Their words: “The Catholic Church is the great apostate and abominable church mentioned by Paul and in the Book of Revelation. We very much believe that.”

Now THAT is “testimony”.

 

[christianley]

Hello to all:

A weekly thread titled “Your Norte Dame Mormon” is really an attempt to undermine one of the leading Catholic educational institutions of this country, here on the most popular Catholic forums on the Internet. And very easily, Catholics fall into this trap of Christian relativism. The dialogue isn’t a problem; the weekly and enduring thread with title “Your Norte Dame [insert non-Christian here]” plus repeated unilateral propaganda is.

Several weeks ago I invited 2 young Mormon missionaries into my home. At one point in the conversation, I asked the young boys, “Have you been taught, or believe, that the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Catholic Church is the Horde of Babylon?”.

The Mormons’ reply: “No” to the first question (with great hesitation). “Yes” to the second question. Their words: “The Catholic Church is the great apostate and abominable church mentioned by Paul and in the Book of Revelation. We very much believe that.”

Now THAT is “testimony”.

It certainly doesn’t seem to me that NDMormon cares to discuss our replies. It wouldn’t surprise me if he simply ignores them.

 

[RyanL]

Many people criticize members of the LDS Church for their reliance on a testimony of the Spirit as the foundation of their faith and membership in the Church. This is unfortunate. It clearly the method God has chosen and taught for the growth and development of His children… Objective evidence, scripture, and truth wherever you find it, all bear witness of the truthfulness of the existence and plan of God, of Christ, His Atonement, and His Gospel. Members of the LDS Church use all truth to feed and nourish their testimony of Christ and His Church.

NDM,

The reliance on the “burning in the bosom” is definitely a chief objection to the LDS teaching. It seems too subjective. Is there any way to know with certainty whether a person is deceiving themselves?

Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide us into the knowledge of the truth and is essential to our understanding and growth in wisdom – that said, it’s often difficult to discern His voice (as it’s often drowned out by our own). What’s to keep me from self-deception and manufacturing false fuzzies?

Example: Let’s say I’m LDS and suffer from same sex attraction. I pray sincerely about it and feel the testimony of the Spirit leading me to the conclusion that I should be gay (connoting a chosen sexually active lifestyle as opposed to simply a predisposition). I feel truly convicted by the Holy Ghost that this is the case and that the sin condemned at Sodom was the sin of inhospitality. If this conviction is the sole arbiter of truth, how could you convince me that my subjective experience is wrong?

Another Example: I’m a black LDS woman who is pregnant and I find out that I have gestational diabetes. Carrying the baby to term poses a slight risk to my life (49.6 per 100,000). I pray about it and talk to my newly-appointed, overworked and absent-minded bishop and I decide that I feel convicted that abortion in this instance is A-OK , as my life is being “threatened” by this pregnancy. How do I know if I’m deceiving myself and am actually committing murder or an act “like unto it”?

Final Example: I’m LDS and I read the the book of Mormon and feel convicted that it’s the holy word of God. I then read the D&C and likewise feel convicted that it’s made-up garbage. Or perhaps I feel that way about the epistle to the Hebrews. Am I deceiving myself or is it the Holy Spirit convicting me? How could I know?

The Catholic answer to these questions would be to examine the Bible as a historical document, see that Christ was divine, see that Christ established one Church, see that Christ promised that this Church would always teach the Truth and would be continued, unbroken, through a hierarchical Church with Apostolic succession, see that all of this is commensurate with the teachings of the first several centuries of understanding of Christ’s Church as revealed through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and rely on that Church to let us know if we’re deceiving ourselves (just as the Bible says). (Longer version here.)

What’s the LDS answer?

God Bless,
RyanL

After thought - perhaps a better example would be to feel convicted that plural marriages are fine and that the LDS teaching is not definitively held. Or maybe that interracial marriage is morally abysmal.

 

[NotreDameMormon]

It certainly doesn’t seem to me that NDMormon cares to discuss our replies. It wouldn’t surprise me if he simply ignores them.

Actually, I read every one. I have yet to see anyone take issue with this thread’s topic in a way that I can…nevermind. Ryan L just did.

Thanks, RyanL.

 

[christianley]

NDM,

The reliance on the “burning in the bosom” is definitely a chief objection to the LDS teaching. It seems too subjective. Is there any way to know with certainty whether a person is deceiving themselves?

Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide us into the knowledge of the truth and is essential to our understanding and growth in wisdom – that said, it’s often difficult to discern His voice (as it’s often drowned out by our own). What’s to keep me from self-deception and manufacturing false fuzzies?

I think you are making it harder than you have to. You are supposed to pray and get a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Once you get a testimony of the Book of Mormon it proves that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Then everything Joseph Smith taught is true and you are simply to follow the prophet and his legal successors which the LDS Church claims are found within the LDS Church leadership. If the prophet says that homosexuality is wrong it’s not necessary to pray to find out if you are to act out your homosexual yearnings. The example on abortion is more problematic, but there is no truth claim involved in your decision because the LDS Church has already defined that you have some leeway in that area. So you can really do what you want with regards to abortion.

Ultimately, the entire question of testimony is limited to a great degree to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Some Mormons claim a burning in the bosom, some Mormons claim a feeling of peace, some Mormons claim other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The truth is whatever way you determine the Book of Mormon is true, the LDS Church is going to tell you that was the Spirit. And if you don’t get that feeling the LDS Church is going to tell you to keep seeking for it because the Book of Mormon is true and you should get the sign like all of the other people who claim the Book of Mormon is true got the sign.

I prayed and prayed to know whether the Book of Mormon was true. I finally told the missionaries I never got an answer and then they told me it was because I already knew it was true so I’m not going to get an answer! It worked when I was a teenager, but it doesn’t work for me today. Essentially, back then I wanted to believe it was true so I “got a testimony.”

 

[zerinus]

Hello to all:

A weekly thread titled “Your Norte Dame Mormon” is really an attempt to undermine one of the leading Catholic educational institutions of this country, here on the most popular Catholic forums on the Internet. And very easily, Catholics fall into this trap of Christian relativism. The dialogue isn’t a problem; the weekly and enduring thread with title “Your Norte Dame [insert non-Christian here]” plus repeated unilateral propaganda is.

Several weeks ago I invited 2 young Mormon missionaries into my home. At one point in the conversation, I asked the young boys, “Have you been taught, or believe, that the Pope is the anti-Christ and the Catholic Church is the Horde of Babylon?”.

The Mormons’ reply: “No” to the first question (with great hesitation). “Yes” to the second question. Their words: “The Catholic Church is the great apostate and abominable church mentioned by Paul and in the Book of Revelation. We very much believe that.”

Now THAT is “testimony”.

That is false. That is not the official position of the LDS Church with regard to the Catholic Church.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

then what is the position? Joseph smith says in the pearl of great price that all of our creeds are an abomination in the sight of God and that all of our professors are corrupt.

 

[RyanL]

…A weekly thread titled “Your Norte Dame Mormon” is really an attempt to undermine one of the leading Catholic educational institutions of this country…

I would respectfully disagree, simply because I think NDM is an accurate descriptor of who and where he is. He is at ND. He is a Mormon.

If you still find offense, NDM has told me offline that he’s willing to change his screen name if that’s the common sentiment – he (and I) simply didn’t think that folks would be offended by pure descriptors.

Also, in speaking with him his stated desire (which I have no reason to doubt) is simply to accurately present the LDS teachings. He feels no particular need to argue for his position, as this is not the apologetics forum, but rather to present accurate information for our discussion. He has told me that he knows whose house this is, and that he expects we will assert our truth claim against LDS teaching; he does not intend to refute our refutations. As a practical matter, it does us no good to argue against straw-man Mormanism – we should be able to know and address the real thing.

That’s why I invited him here in the first place – to make sure we’re talking about the Real McCoy Mormonism rather than the oft-skewed teachings of people like zerinus/amgid. Zerinus is simply not bringing accurate LDS theology to the table, so he’s not that helpful – NDM is speaking accurately (as far as I can tell), so he is helpful. Further, since he’s an active member he can speak to the more recent proclaimations of the first presidency/quarum/etc. This is where it’s helpful to have former Mormons – they can scrutinze whether or not the current claim is consistant with their knowledge of prior LDS teachings.

I think you are making it harder than you have to. You are supposed to pray and get a testimony of the Book of Mormon. Once you get a testimony of the Book of Mormon it proves that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Then everything Joseph Smith taught is true and you are simply to follow the prophet and his legal successors…

Ahhh…that’s helpful. Once you get the camel’s nose under the tent, so to speak? You don’t need to feel convicted about anything more than the BOM and you’re in for all your chips – that makes much more sense. If it was as subjective as I thought, I would have expected more splintering like we see with modern Protestantism…unless…are there different denominations within the LDS church?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[christianley]

I would respectfully disagree, simply because I think NDM is an accurate descriptor of who and where he is. He is at ND. He is a Mormon.

If you still find offense, NDM has told me offline that he’s willing to change his screen name if that’s the common sentiment – he (and I) simply didn’t think that folks would be offended by pure descriptors.

Also, in speaking with him his stated desire (which I have no reason to doubt) is simply to accurately present the LDS teachings. He feels no particular need to argue for his position, as this is not the apologetics forum, but rather to present accurate information for our discussion. He has told me that he knows whose house this is, and that he expects we will assert our truth claim against LDS teaching; he does not intend to refute our refutations. As a practical matter, it does us no good to argue against straw-man Mormanism – we should be able to know and address the real thing.

That’s why I invited him here in the first place – to make sure we’re talking about the Real McCoy Mormonism rather than the oft-skewed teachings of people like zerinus/amgid. Zerinus is simply not bringing accurate LDS theology to the table, so he’s not that helpful – NDM is speaking accurately (as far as I can tell), so he is helpful. Further, since he’s an active member he can speak to the more recent proclaimations of the first presidency/quarum/etc. This is where it’s helpful to have former Mormons – they can scrutinze whether or not the current claim is consistant with their knowledge of prior LDS teachings.

Ahhh…that’s helpful. Once you get the camel’s nose under the tent, so to speak? You don’t need to feel convicted about anything more than the BOM and you’re in for all your chips – that makes much more sense. If it was as subjective as I thought, I would have expected more splintering like we see with modern Protestantism…unless…are there different denominations within the LDS church?

God Bless,
RyanL

There is splintering, but most of the groups are relatively small. Some, like the Community of Christ, are falling apart. The LDS Church is the only one that has sustained itself for the long haul. The Community of Christ followed Joseph Smith’s son instead of Brigham Young, but they have pretty much accepted a liberal theological position at this point and don’t as a rule take the Book of Mormon literally. Most people who are going to convert to Mormonism will become LDS because it is the only group with a strong missionary presence. I’ve been told over and over again that once you know the Book of Mormon is true then the whole LDS ball of wax is true. So people follow the prophet or wind up floating away … Mormons don’t generally pray about theological issues aside from the Book of Mormon – they let the prophet interpret it for them. They will give lip service to praying to know that the prophet is true. When President Hinckley dies there will be calls for people to go pray to find out the new leader is a prophet, but most will just accept it without question because there really is a clear path to leadership in the LDS Church. It’s always the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve without a real vote by anyone. I heard Mormons complain about the way Catholics chose their Pope because it was all too political. The constant mantra is “follow the prophet.” If the prophet decides next week that women should have the priesthood there would be very little dissent on the issue – they would just proclaim “isn’t it marvelous, isn’t it wonderful.” Active Mormons have drunk the Kool-Aid – once the prophet speaks, the thinking is really done.

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide us into the knowledge of the truth and is essential to our understanding and growth in wisdom – that said, it’s often difficult to discern His voice (as it’s often drowned out by our own). What’s to keep me from self-deception and manufacturing false fuzzies?

An excellent follow-up RyanL!

The witness of the Spirit is subjective, and I believe that is the way God intends it to be. It preserves faith and agency, as discussed.

You are correct, though, that the Spirit’s emotional effects can be counterfeited. Satan surely uses self-justification as one of these counterfeits. I truly “feel” justified in my wrath and anger because I have been unjustly treated, yet, is wrath born of the Spirit? No. Many of the Pharisees were cut down by Christ for replacing true righteousness, born of the Spirit, with self-justification.

The trick is to learn the difference between emotional manipulation and self-serving justification and the true witness of the Spirit.

“The issue is truth, my dear brothers and sisters, and the only way to find truth is through uncompromising self-education toward self-honesty to see the original “real me,” the child of God, in its innocence and potential in contrast to the influence from the other part of me, “the flesh,” with its selfish desires and foolishness. Only in that state of pure honesty are we able to see truth in its complete dimension. Honesty may not be everything, but everything is nothing without honesty. In its final state, honesty is a gift of the Spirit through which the true disciples of Christ feel the force to bear testimony of the truth in such a powerful way that it penetrates the very core of our existence…

“One of the great tragedies we see in our lives is that the adversary, through the influences of our “flesh,” can cheat us into establishing images of truth or perceptions of truth. Our brain, the great computer where all the facts of life’s memories are held together, can also be programmed by the “flesh,” with its self-centered ideas to deceive the spiritual self. Without the constant striving through prayer and contemplation to reach the ends of self-awareness and honesty, our so-called intellect can, therefore, based on look-alike truths, play many games of reason, to impress, to get gain, to intimidate, or even to manipulate truth with the vain results of deceit.” F. Enzio Busche, “Truth Is the Issue,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, 24

Central to the process of bringing God’s children closer to Him to correctly hear His Spirit, is His Church. You are 100% correct in pointing out the balance. Christ called and ordained the Apostles to teach all nations and to instruct them in correct principles and knowledge so that they would be able to receive the Spirit.

The Spirit will not contradict what God has clearly taught. Taken as a whole, the scriptures and teachings of the called and anointed Church leaders speak the mind and will of God. If someone claims a Spirit born witness that is contrary to these things, that claim is suspect.

Your example of someone suffering from same sex attraction is the perfect example. God has clearly taught, in the Old and New Testaments, that such practices are contrary to His will. Modern day revelation and teachings confirm this in the Church. A witness of the Spirit in contradiction is all but impossible.

In the end, we are all individually accountable for our testimony of the truth. If we allow ourselves to be deceived, we alone bear the consequences.

The Spirit remains the foundation for God’s truth, the question is, are we sufficiently “in tune?” Have we done what we need to do to ensure a clear static-free channel? Have we studied the scriptures to understand the Spirit’s voice and teachings? Are we pure in heart in our search for the truth or are we looking for self-justification?

Great follow-up.

 

[christianley]

The witness of the Spirit is subjective, and I believe that is the way God intends it to be. It preserves faith and agency, as discussed.

You are correct, though, that the Spirit’s emotional effects can be counterfeited. Satan surely uses self-justification as one of these counterfeits. I truly “feel” justified in my wrath and anger because I have been unjustly treated, yet, is wrath born of the Spirit? No. Many of the Pharisees were cut down by Christ for replacing true righteousness, born of the Spirit, with self-justification.

The trick is to learn the difference between emotional manipulation and self-serving justification and the true witness of the Spirit.

We have all of this evidence available that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. I’m sure you’ve seen it. When the missionaries are teaching an investigator about Mormonism, one of their techniques is to help the investigator know when he is feeling the Spirit. So in the middle of a lesson if the investigator shows signs of emotionally connecting with their lesson, the missionary is instructed to tell the investigator, “What you are feeling now is the Spirit of God witnessing to you that the principle we are teaching now is true.” This is sometimes done to lead the investigator to believe the Book of Mormon is true inspite of the evidence easily obtainable from many sources that the Book of Mormon is a fraud. It seems to me those intent on using “the Spirit” to manipulate people can do so pretty easily if the investigator is at all pliable. That’s why Mormon missionaries often look for births, marriages and obituaries – they then go visit these people because they are at a vulnerable time in their lives when it is easier to convince them of some new religious truth. They then go and ask, “Do you want to be with your family forever?” as a way of manipulating investigators at these vulnerable times. These were techniques we were instructed to use on our missions.