Your Notre Dame Mormon on Testimony

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That’s why Mormon missionaries often look for births, marriages and obituaries – they then go visit these people because they are at a vulnerable time in their lives when it is easier to convince them of some new religious truth. They then go and ask, “Do you want to be with your family forever?” as a way of manipulating investigators at these vulnerable times. These were techniques we were instructed to use on our missions.
My fellow missionaries and I were also told to use such techniques on our missions (Taiwan 1977-1979).

We were also told, by our mission prez and by Elder (later “prophet”) Ezra Taft Benson when he visited our mission, to bear our testimonies to investigators even if we did not have a testimony. Our leaders told us “If you bear testimony often enough, you will eventually gain a testimony of your own.”

That’s Mormon-speak for “If you tell a lie often enough, you will eventually believe it”.

Paul
 
We were also told, by our mission prez and by Elder (later “prophet”) Ezra Taft Benson when he visited our mission, to bear our testimonies to investigators even if we did not have a testimony. Our leaders told us “If you bear testimony often enough, you will eventually gain a testimony of your own.”
Is that an exact quote, Paul?

I think the sentiment was Elder Packer’s baby, and it was little less blunted:

"Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27)

"It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase! “The Candle of the Lord,” Ensign, Jan. 1983, pp. 54-55, quoted in the Missionary Guide

It is certainly an unusual doctrine, but not far from “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief” (Mark 9:24).
 
Just curious. What is the source of your information for that?

zerinus
I actually investigated becoming a member of the Community of Christ and participated in their discussions for years. The conservatives have fled to form a loose organization of Restoraton Branches. The liberals are hanging in there, but active membership has fallen drastically. They really have very little faith left in Joseph Smith and his teachings. The only thing that bailed them out is one member leaving a rather large inheritance to the Community of Christ a couple of years ago. They have recently had to lay off many staff at their home office.
 
I actually investigated becoming a member of the Community of Christ and participated in their discussions for years. The conservatives have fled to form a loose organization of Restoraton Branches. The liberals are hanging in there, but active membership has fallen drastically. They really have very little faith left in Joseph Smith and his teachings. The only thing that bailed them out is one member leaving a rather large inheritance to the Community of Christ a couple of years ago. They have recently had to lay off many staff at their home office.
Thanks for the info. I know a little bit about them but not that much. I believe a lot of their problems started around the time they changed their name from RLDS to CoC. It signalled an significant attempt on their part to reshape their identity, and it never worked.

zerinus
 
Is that an exact quote, Paul?
Yes, but it’s not the entire quote. I wrote it all down in my mission journal:
Elders, never hesitate to bear strong testimony to the truth of the restored gospel. You may feel inadequate. You may feel that you haven’t a strong enough testimony to share with others. Whether you feel you have a personal testimony or not, bear testimony! Your words will have a powerful effect on others. If you bear testimony to the truth often enough, you will eventually gain a testimony of your very own. If you do not have a testimony my brothers, I give you permission to borrow mine, for my testimony of Joseph Smith and his divine mission is big enough to go around! - Ezra Taft Benson, Taiwan Taipei Mission Retreat, February 14, 1978
I have six pages of notes from Benson’s talk. This was one of the nice parts. Much of it was peppered with rather typical LDS racism and meanness. He was a real piece of work.

Here’s my favorite part:
I have learned that some of the elders from this and other oriental missions have gone home and been honorably released, only to return and marry local oriental girls. Do not even consider it! Banish the very thought from your minds! There is no blood of Abraham here! Make a plan right now to go back home and marry a nice white girl, so that your parents will have grandchildren they can be proud of! - Ibid
Nice. Before you claim, as other LDS have done, that I misheard him or wrote it down wrong, let me say that many of us compared notes and impressions after the talk. We were all shocked and dismayed at Benson’s overt bigotry in this and other statements. Brigham Young would have been proud.

Paul
 
Before you claim, as other LDS have done, that I misheard him or wrote it down wrong, let me say that many of us compared notes and impressions after the talk. We were all shocked and dismayed at Benson’s overt bigotry in this and other statements. Brigham Young would have been proud.
You will forgive us if we take something so out of sorts with a grain of salt.
 
we’re talking about ezra taft benson… how is any of this"out of sorts?" He was proud of his racism as evidenced by his many published statements. this was not out of the ordinary in his day for LDS. I believe mark e petersen was every bit as bad and Bruce R. Mconkie may have been worse. Even Spencer W. Kimball fits that mold. We have documetned this quite extensively in previous threads but I’ll be glad to repost if you wish.

So far you have given us generic statements linking testimony to prophetic revelation yet qualify it as subjective emotional experience and yet we still have the actual practice of inculcation from early age. If that’s the only reason to believe in mormon doctrine then you might want to rethink your position.
 
What I find most disconcerting about the replies to NDM’s post is that rather than reading a comparison and contrast of LDS and Catholic belief, I find the Catholic response is simply a shouting down of the LDS side. Ryan L. did ask constructive questions.

I would make the following points to Ryan.

To classify the LDS spiritual experience as simply a “warm fuzzy” is to belittle a process that ends up having a very strong and positive impact on the person having the experience. It is not just a “warm fuzzy”. Among LDS this experience has been called the “burning in the bosom” which would seem to connote a purely emotional experience, but the intellect is also a part of the process.

What I would like to ask Ryan is, How does a Catholic receive a testimony that the Catholic Church is the one true church? Would his conversion be based only on an intellectual conclusion? Would prayer be involved in the process, and if so how would one recognize God’s response to the prayer?

So far the Catholic conversion process as explained in this forum is to study, study, study, study… And then once you are intellectually convinced this is the truth you may confidently join the Catholic Church.

Peter’s conversion boiled down to a purely intellectual experience doesn’t resonate with me. Did he believe because he saw the miracles? Did he believe Christ is the Son of God because he was able to work it out rationally in his head? The Spirit was involved in there somewhere. Help me understand how.

What I’m hoping to hear is that conversion and spiritual experience within the Catholic Church isn’t just in your head.

Additional questions:

If a young man feels it is his vocation to join the Priesthood but is unsure about the decision, I’m sure he will speak with counselors, parents, and priests in order to make the correct decision. Can he ask God his opinion about the decision? If he does pray, can this young man receive a response from God? If yes, how may he expect to receive an answer? And last of all, how might emotion be a part of the response?
 
Interesting comment from a bible study last night…

If one tries honestly to study the Catholic Scriptures, you must come to the conclusion that the words are God’s words telling us who He is… we need all the grace and help of the Church to even understand some in our limited time here

If one tries honestly to study the Book of Mormon, or the Koran, or the WatchTower, you must come to the conclusion that the words are man’s words telling us who man thinks God should be.

Sadly, this latter conclusion is also evident in the commentaries of most non-Catholics.

.

A thread on that last sentence would be interesting, so I won’t hijack this one 🙂

 
To classify the LDS spiritual experience as simply a “warm fuzzy” is to belittle a process that ends up having a very strong and positive impact on the person having the experience.
It wasn’t meant to be pejoritive – please forgive me if you received it as such.
What I would like to ask Ryan is, How does a Catholic receive a testimony that the Catholic Church is the one true church?
There are many different ways. Some people have direct personal revelation, where someone (like Mary or Jesus) appears to them and tells them to get Catholic. Some people are emotionally overwhelmed by their first experience at mass and are convicted in that way. Some are extremely reluctant to become Catholic, but because of the mountain of historical evidence supporting the Catholic claims feel compelled to do so for the sake of intellectual honesty. Some simply never know anything else. And probably most have some combination of the above.

All of that is to say that there’s no particular way – all roads lead to Rome, so to speak. 😉
Would his conversion be based only on an intellectual conclusion?
Some are, some are not.
Would prayer be involved in the process, and if so how would one recognize God’s response to the prayer?
Prayer should be involved, and typically is. Recognizing God’s response is sometimes difficult. Sometimes God will smack you in the head with His response. Sometimes it’s more subtle. Sometimes it’s unanswered. Sometimes it’s the exact opposite of what you asked for. To try and formulate a single “method” would be dangerous, as God likes to surprise us and seldom does the expected.
So far the Catholic conversion process as explained in this forum is to study, study, study, study… And then once you are intellectually convinced this is the truth you may confidently join the Catholic Church.
This would be a good reason.
Peter’s conversion boiled down to a purely intellectual experience doesn’t resonate with me.
Me either – he was a pretty feisty guy.
Did he believe because he saw the miracles? Did he believe Christ is the Son of God because he was able to work it out rationally in his head? The Spirit was involved in there somewhere. Help me understand how.
I can’t tell you how, only that the Father revealed it to Peter (method unknown).
What I’m hoping to hear is that conversion and spiritual experience within the Catholic Church isn’t just in your head.
For some it is, for some it is not. We’re snowflakes – no two are exactly alike. Indeed, what a boring God we would have if we were!
If a young man feels it is his vocation to join the Priesthood but is unsure about the decision, I’m sure he will speak with counselors, parents, and priests in order to make the correct decision. Can he ask God his opinion about the decision?
He would be foolish not to.
If he does pray, can this young man receive a response from God?
Perhaps. Like I said, some prayers are answered, some are not. Usually (for me), the responses are surprising – either for what they are or for what they are not.
If yes, how may he expect to receive an answer?
He should receive his answer prayerfully and humbly.
And last of all, how might emotion be a part of the response?
I think relying on an emotional response would be dangerous. We’re human, which means we’re unbelievably fickle and have a tremendous capacity for self-delusion. (Think: “I can quit any time I want to.”)

However we’re also reasonable beings, capable of rational thought (intellect). We should use our intellects rather than our emotions whenever possible, though our emotions should not be discounted. If logic truly shows that a conclusion is true, it should be believed regardless of how we feel about it. If a preponderance of the evidence points in one direction, it’s likely that such is the case (by definition). “Just enough evidence to be believed” doesn’t seem to cut it, as it may still be outweighed by a preponderance of the evidence. That’s not rational faith, that’s irrational faith – even if it’s coupled with an emotive response. So the question then becomes is there a preponderance of the evidence which would support this emotive response? This would seem to be proper discernment.

Does that make sense?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
What I find most disconcerting about the replies to NDM’s post is that rather than reading a comparison and contrast of LDS and Catholic belief, I find the Catholic response is simply a shouting down of the LDS side. Ryan L. did ask constructive questions.

I would make the following points to Ryan.

To classify the LDS spiritual experience as simply a “warm fuzzy” is to belittle a process that ends up having a very strong and positive impact on the person having the experience. It is not just a “warm fuzzy”. Among LDS this experience has been called the “burning in the bosom” which would seem to connote a purely emotional experience, but the intellect is also a part of the process.

What I would like to ask Ryan is, How does a Catholic receive a testimony that the Catholic Church is the one true church? Would his conversion be based only on an intellectual conclusion? Would prayer be involved in the process, and if so how would one recognize God’s response to the prayer?

So far the Catholic conversion process as explained in this forum is to study, study, study, study… And then once you are intellectually convinced this is the truth you may confidently join the Catholic Church.

Peter’s conversion boiled down to a purely intellectual experience doesn’t resonate with me. Did he believe because he saw the miracles? Did he believe Christ is the Son of God because he was able to work it out rationally in his head? The Spirit was involved in there somewhere. Help me understand how.

What I’m hoping to hear is that conversion and spiritual experience within the Catholic Church isn’t just in your head.

Additional questions:

If a young man feels it is his vocation to join the Priesthood but is unsure about the decision, I’m sure he will speak with counselors, parents, and priests in order to make the correct decision. Can he ask God his opinion about the decision? If he does pray, can this young man receive a response from God? If yes, how may he expect to receive an answer? And last of all, how might emotion be a part of the response?
I will simply tell you why I joined the Catholic Church. The first thing that happened was it became obviously clear to me that the Mormon Church was a fraud. The Book of Mormon was not what it claimed to be. No amount of emotion or feeling could change the facts on the ground regarding Book of Mormon historicity.

The last thing I ever really thought I would do was become Catholic. So I bounced around looking at Protestant churches for over a decade. What a lot of confusion. The earth was created in six days crowd seemed to have no reason at all about them. Their doctrines were diametrically opposed to each other – predestination or free will? Infant baptism or believer’s baptism? And everyone who died without coming to Christ was automatically in hell. The mainline denominations seemed to have more sense about them, but they really didn’t seem to be grounded about anything. Doctrines ranging from abortion to gay marriage depended on the whim of a vote rather than anything in the Bible. I can just imagine that in 10 years anything will go with them.

But the Catholic Church was different. It was clear on abortion and marriage. Its doctrine was dependable and had the support of the Early Church Fathers. And mass was overwhelmingly beautiful. Finally, if one has faith in Jesus’ words as recorded in the Bible then you are really without much wiggle room. In John 6 Jesus spoke of the necessity of eating his body and drinking his blood – not symbolically, but in reality. In Matthew we find Jesus telling Peter that Peter was the Rock and that upon the Rock of Peter the church would be built and the gates of death would not prevail against it. No room for an apostasy there. The only way I could see avoiding the conclusion the Catholic Church was true is to reject the words of Jesus himself. And that would make Jesus, the person upon whom I had rested all of my faith, at the very least a false prophet.

So while I have had very emotional experiences at mass and as I’ve prayed and experienced the Catholic Church in all its fulness, these are not the experiences that I believe have come from the Spirit. I have faith the Spirit has spoken to my mind and revealed the truthfulness of the Catholic Church to me directly as I’ve studied and attended mass. It is not a feeling, but a conviction that has come through the leading of the Holy Spirit directly to my Spirit. It is simply a matter of faith that Jesus’ words reveal what we need to know for salvation and those teachings finally lead to the Catholic Church which Jesus founded.
 
What I find most disconcerting about the replies to NDM’s post is that rather than reading a comparison and contrast of LDS and Catholic belief, I find the Catholic response is simply a shouting down of the LDS side.
then I think you are oversimplifying.

NDM has so far based this thread on the mormon testimony. First I think you make the mistaken assumption that this is a universal belief that everyon just “interprets” differently. The Mormon position on this is closely linked to the role of prophecy. Mormons believe in the ongoing role of Prophet (the office). I think this gives them a view of revelation that is somewhat uniqe. (I disagree with it, but I think unique the accurate descriptor)

Now I will deliberately oversimplify for the sake of time and say that ties directly into the mormon concept of “testimony”. The doctrine being that God speaks to man through revelation, he speaks to his church only through a prophet but each person gets prophetic revelation for his area of responsibility right down to the individual level. This makes it appear “normal” to the LDS mind that you just “ask God” after reading the BoM if it’s true and then you the individual decide if your “experience” constitutes revelation and if so you proceed on the basis that God has revealed your conclusion to you. You then tell everyone you believe it and act like it’s really true and that’s how you “build” your testimony.

You also accept what I consider to be flawed logic by believing that since your “experience” is that the BoM is true, then Joseph Smith Jr. was a true prophet and that means that all of his other teachings are truly from God. (I know that mormons will qualify this with many conditions) and that means that all the subsequent mormon presidents were true prophets and their teachings came from God (even more qualifications) and that means Gordon B. Hinkley is Gods prophet (again wiht the qualifiers) and what he says comes from God. SO as a Mormon you just gotta believe that whatever the prophet says MUST be true and evidence to the contrary is either fraudulent or misunderstood.

In contrast catholics believe that, as the book of hebrews tells us in the bible, God in the PAST spoke to us through prophets, then he came in person (Jesus) and revealed to us his full gospel…EVERYTHING we needed to be with him forever. (no furhter need for the office of prophet.) We believe this is recorded in sacred scripture. we also believe that sacred tradition is helpful in placing these writings in proper context. we also believe that through the magisterium God has enabled his church (Catholic) to maximize true understanding of his gospel.

We believe that God never stopped speaking to us nor will he. We believe in prayer and personal revelation and we believe that scripture is helpful in placing one in the proper frame of mind to receive that. Catholic edition bibles usually contain prayers to the Holy Spirit to enlighten the reader.

(continued)
 
So far you have given us generic statements linking testimony to prophetic revelation yet qualify it as subjective emotional experience and yet we still have the actual practice of inculcation from early age. If that’s the only reason to believe in mormon doctrine then you might want to rethink your position.
A witness from the Spirit is subjective. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Yet, the objective manifestations of a life changed are not. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Emotion and intellect are God given. Both are used in the LDS practice of seeking, learning, and knowing the truth:

“Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.” (D&C 8:2)

“And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 88:118)

The LDS do not rely solely on emotion, as critics would like to say. The LDS feed their testimony born of the Spirit with the truth found in scripture, from all good learning, from leaders, and most importantly, from experience (see John 7:17).

As the saviors of scripture, Catholics certainly cannot take issue with the fact the Spirit is the foundation for all testimony of God and Christ, even when it seems illogical. Especially when it seems illogical:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)
 
(continued)
There is also the huge difference of having a catechism. This is siginificant in the conversion process in that through all the “study” that you seem to downplay, one learns exactly what is taught and believed so that one knows what to pray about, what to ask God if it’s true. We also believe that you need to go through the process of building faith to get those answers. Thus the study and pray and read and more study. We think it important to understand what you believe. We see a need for detail in documenting and teaching our doctrine and practices. We also think God has laready answered most of the questions about our church in the Bible. Thus once again STUDY.

I would also stay with my position that what was portrayed as prohetic revelation regarding testimony by NDM is in practice within the LDS church not the case. Paul points to a specific example by an LDS prophet that appears to support what I and many others have SEEN in LDS churches that most testimonies are truly inculcated. If you repeat it enough and try hard enough to believe it just through wanting and praying for it to be true it’s real easy to think that GOD has revealed to you that it IS true. This is not exclusive to LDS either. I give you David Koresh and the branch davidians as analagous to Joseph Smith and the Mormons. There have also been the shakers, JW’s and numerous others. All of these claim to have testimomies revealed by God about their “truth”. All CAN’T be true. yet theindividuals are sincere in their beliefs. what gives? psychology answers and we know how humans can convince themselves that wrong is right.

So where can we find objective truth? the Bible. But everyone interprets it different…so tradition helps us to understand the intent of the authors, their history and situation and thus we can THEN go to God in prayer and gain understanding.

Every Catholic Sunday mass reads the bible, explains the scriptures read, announces our core beliefs by reciting the creeds, prays to GOD as a group (Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all prayed to directly) and culminates in actually receiving God as his original Apostles did in holy communion. The presence of God is real. That makes for a very different type of faith building. thus there is no true analog of the mormon testimony in the Catholic church. We think God provided a different path and kept the path open to all of his children always. (no restorations needed)
 
So far you have given us generic statements linking testimony to prophetic revelation yet qualify it as subjective emotional experience and yet we still have the actual practice of inculcation from early age. If that’s the only reason to believe in mormon doctrine then you might want to rethink your position.
A witness from the Spirit is subjective. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Yet, the objective manifestations of a life changed are not. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Emotion and intellect are God given. Both are used in the LDS practice of seeking, learning, and knowing the truth:

“Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.” (D&C 8:2)

“And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” (D&C 88:118)

The LDS do not rely solely on emotion, as critics would like to say. The LDS feed their testimony born of the Spirit with the truth found in scripture, from all good learning, from leaders, and most importantly, from experience (see John 7:17).

As the saviors of scripture, Catholics certainly cannot take issue with the fact the Spirit is the foundation for all testimony of God and Christ, even when it seems illogical. Especially when it seems illogical:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)
 
A witness from the Spirit is subjective. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Yet, the objective manifestations of a life changed are not. Look at the writings of the Apostle Paul. Emotion and intellect are God given. Both are used in the LDS practice of seeking, learning, and knowing the truth:
I can show you millions of Catholics and Protestants who have had their life changed through their belief in Christ. I can probably find Muslims whose lives have been changed through reading the Koran. A changed life is not enough to prove the Holy Spirit is involved. Men do have free will and the ability to make correct choices. Our manner of life does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true any more than the manner of life of a Muslim proves the Koran true or false.
 
Me either – he was a pretty feisty guy.

I can’t tell you how, only that the Father revealed it to Peter (method unknown).
Method known! “Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but the Spirit of my Father which is in heaven”. That is pretty clear, isn’t it? The method is the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus
 
Method known! “Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but the Spirit of my Father which is in heaven”. That is pretty clear, isn’t it? The method is the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

zerinus
What translation are you using? My translation doesn’t say anything about “the Spirit”. Are you making up Scripture like you make up justifications for LDS abortions?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
What translation are you using? My translation doesn’t say anything about “the Spirit”. Are you making up Scripture like you make up justifications for LDS abortions?

God Bless,
RyanL
This is what the King Jame says:

Matthew 16:17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
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