Your Notre Dame Mormon on Testimony

[RyanL]

ASV: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

BBE: And Jesus made answer and said to him, A blessing on you, Simon Bar-jonah: because this knowledge has not come to you from flesh and blood, but from my Father in heaven.

DBY: And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

KJV: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

WEY: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah,” said Jesus; "for mere human nature has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.

WBS: And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon-Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

WEB: Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

YLT: And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, SimonBar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal ‘it’ to thee, butmy Father who is in the heavens.

I don’t see “the Spirit” anywhere…:nope:

Z? Are you making things up? What would you call it if I did this with, say, the BoM?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[christianley]

Inspired Version by Joseph Smith:

Matthew 16:18 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

ASV: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

BBE: And Jesus made answer and said to him, A blessing on you, Simon Bar-jonah: because this knowledge has not come to you from flesh and blood, but from my Father in heaven.

DBY: And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

KJV: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

WEY: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah,” said Jesus; "for mere human nature has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven.

WBS: And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon-Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

WEB: Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

YLT: And Jesus answering said to him, 'Happy art thou, SimonBar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal ‘it’ to thee, butmy Father who is in the heavens.

I don’t see “the Spirit” anywhere…:nope:

Z? Are you making things up? What would you call it if I did this with, say, the BoM?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[NotreDameMormon]

I can show you millions of Catholics and Protestants who have had their life changed through their belief in Christ. I can probably find Muslims whose lives have been changed through reading the Koran. A changed life is not enough to prove the Holy Spirit is involved. Men do have free will and the ability to make correct choices. Our manner of life does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true any more than the manner of life of a Muslim proves the Koran true or false.

I am sorry, but I will have to completely disagree.

The Spirit testifies of truth wherever you find it. The Bible makes that clear. Any time someone moves closer to God you can bet the Spirit is there to testify that it is right thing for them to do. Any of God’s truth in the Koran that teaches men to draw nearer to Him you can bet is accompanied by the Spirit:

“For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth” (Eph 5:9)

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13)

 

[christianley]

I am sorry, but I will have to completely disagree.

The Spirit testifies of truth wherever you find it. The Bible makes that clear. Any time someone moves closer to God you can bet the Spirit is there to testify that it is right thing for them to do. Any of God’s truth in the Koran that teaches men to draw nearer to Him you can bet is accompanied by the Spirit:

“For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth” (Eph 5:9)

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13)

So the Koran is inspired by God and I should convert to Islam? The Book of Mormon (which has been proven a fraud) is inspired by God and proves that I should become a Mormon? Which one – Islam or Mormonism? There is absolute truth out there, Mormonism and Islam aren’t it, and the Holy Spirit will not tell me to follow the Book of Mormon or the Koran.

 

[RyanL]

So the Koran is inspired by God and I should convert to Islam?

Now, now. Let’s address what he’s actually saying. What he appears to claim is that in as much as the Qur’an has truth (i.e., things like “there is only one God”), and in as much as a person is led to believe that truth (again, “there is only one God”), the Spirit is what is driving that person forward.

He’s not claiming here that the Qur’an (or the BoM or the Bible) is God’s book – he seems to be simply stating that (to use the Catechism’s language):

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God." They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil “for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man.”

Non-believers have “elements of truth and grace”, even if it’s mixed with error. The truth and grace that are present are from God, and people who are moved to the truth are moved there through the “secret presence” of the Holy Spirit.

That seems to be all he’s saying.

I highly doubt that he’s claiming in this post an “everyone’s on an equal footing” theology regarding revelation.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

What translation are you using? My translation doesn’t say anything about “the Spirit”. Are you making up Scripture like you make up justifications for LDS abortions?

Zerinus,

I saw that you were logged on and reading this thread, but you logged off without replying to me. I was really hoping you would explain why you’re adding words to Scripture in order to “proof text” your desired result. Would you please be so kind as to inform me the next time you’re logged on?

Thanks in advance.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

You are not wrong, my friend. That is what I am saying.

 

[zerinus]

What translation are you using? My translation doesn’t say anything about “the Spirit”. Are you making up Scripture like you make up justifications for LDS abortions?

God Bless,
RyanL

I was quoting from memory. You are right, perhaps I shouldn’t have done! That was a bit careless of me. However, it says that the Father has revealed it to him, and the Father reveals the truth to His saints by the power of His Spirit, which is the the Holy Ghost. See Luke 2:26; John 15:26; John 16:13.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

I saw that you were logged on and reading this thread, but you logged off without replying to me. I was really hoping you would explain why you’re adding words to Scripture in order to “proof text” your desired result. Would you please be so kind as to inform me the next time you’re logged on?

Thanks in advance.

God Bless,
RyanL

I hadn’t noticed your post before. I have only just noticed it, and did reply to it.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

I was quoting from memory. You are right, perhaps I shouldn’t have done! That was a bit careless of me. However, it says that the Father has revealed it to him, and the Father reveals the truth to His saints by the power of His Spirit, which is the the Holy Ghost. See Luke 2:26; John 15:26; John 16:13.

zerinus

amgid,
that’s not true even in mormon doctrine. Mormons believe that God reveals many things directly in face to face conversations (moses, brother of Jared, Joseph smith, etc.), through prophets, through scripture, through direct revelation in the form of dreams/visions/impressions/etc., through “messengers” (moroni, peter/james/john, john the baptist, elijah,etc.) or throught his son Jesus Christ (saul/paul, appearance to the nephites, josesph smith, etc.)

That’s just LDS belief. The rest of also believe that there are many ways that God reveals himslef and/or his will to us. The scriptures did NOT tell us that Peter was by the Holy Spirit. LDS doctrine is probably most lacking in defining the identity and role of the Holy Spirit. Remember that for many years the LoF were canonized scripture and that even now the D&C states that they are profitable for study. Lecture 5 states that there only two memebers of the Godhead (father and son) and that the Holy Spirit is their shared mind.

Now to NDM, if the holy spirit gives a similar experience every time we see “truth” in any book then how on earht could one be expected to differentiate between the “truth” of the BoM and the "truth of the Koran, bhagavad-gita or any other such writing. If i am reading the parts that are “good” then you beleive that I will receive a spiritual witness? I fail to see how that validates “testimony” in the context of moroni’s “promise”

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Now to NDM, if the holy spirit gives a similar experience every time we see “truth” in any book then how on earht could one be expected to differentiate between the “truth” of the BoM and the "truth of the Koran, bhagavad-gita or any other such writing. If i am reading the parts that are “good” then you beleive that I will receive a spiritual witness? I fail to see how that validates “testimony” in the context of moroni’s “promise”

Majick,

Not to lose patience here, but how many ways do you want us to say it? There is no need to differentiate; all “truth” is God’s, no matter where you find it. Following any truth leads to one source, God. The Spirit will attest to the truth in the Koran, the truth in the Bible, the truth in the Book of Mormon, the truth in your math textbook, and the truth in the funny papers.

 

[christianley]

Majick,

Not to lose patience here, but how many ways do you want us to say it? There is no need to differentiate; all “truth” is God’s, no matter where you find it. Following any truth leads to one source, God. The Spirit will attest to the truth in the Koran, the truth in the Bible, the truth in the Book of Mormon, the truth in your math textbook, and the truth in the funny papers.

Since the Book of Mormon quotes extensively from the Bible it is bound to have some “truth.” But did Lehi really get on a ship with his family and wind up in America? If that didn’t happen the Book of Mormon is worthless as a source of truth. Perhaps the devil likes to deceive us by presenting a book like the Book of Mormon which leads us away from God by presenting us partial truth mixed with lies. As you well know the LDS Church does not allow its members to testify they believe the Book of Mormon to be inspired myth so it is, to paraphrase President Hinckley’s statement in a recent conference talk, either all true or a complete fraud. There is no middle ground. It may inspire a wonderfully moral life, but if it is at its core false it is at the very least unnecessary to accept it as valid. The whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to lead people to the LDS Church – if the LDS Church’s claims are built on sand then a testimony of the Book of Mormon is worthless.

 

[RyanL]

Now to NDM, if the holy spirit gives a similar experience every time we see “truth” in any book then how on earht could one be expected to differentiate between the “truth” of the BoM and the "truth of the Koran, bhagavad-gita or any other such writing. If i am reading the parts that are “good” then you beleive that I will receive a spiritual witness? I fail to see how that validates “testimony” in the context of moroni’s “promise”

…The Spirit will attest to the truth in the Koran, the truth in the Bible, the truth in the Book of Mormon, the truth in your math textbook, and the truth in the funny papers.

NDM,

This would seem to be a good question, and I don’t think you’ve quite answered it…

If the Holy Spirit convicts me of the truth which is in the Qur’an, and then convicts me of the truth which is in the BoM…how should I know which is right? Is the difference between the felt convictions **qualitatively **different? Is the difference **quantitatively **different?

Do you see what I’m asking? If I’m convicted by both, and they can’t both be true…how do I know which to believe? I would highly doubt it’s a line-by-line conviction (please correct me if I’m misunderstanding), so the testimony I receive from reading each book should be taken as a whole. Taken as a whole, I’m convicted that each book is “true” (to some extent or another). How would one know which to believe completely?

This is further muddled in my mind by our conversations regarding the lack of LDS belief in the inerrancy of Scripture, as no particular Scripture can be *completely *believed and all Scriptures have the significant potential to contain error. Since all possibly contain error…what’s the testimonial difference between the Qur’an and the BoM? There’s truth and error in both (even in LDS theology - again, please correct me if I misunderstand), I’m convicted by both,the testimony isn’t given line-by-line or doctrine-by-doctrine manner…is the sum total of my ultimate conviction to be bigger or better for the BoM than for the Qur’an? Is the ultimate conviction for the BoM and the Bible to be equal? I’m just not quite understanding how it all works out, practically speaking. Any help you could provide would be appreciated.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[majick275]

to put as simply as possible, It would appear that based on the example(s) given by NDM that I could read the Q’uran, pray about it’s message and receive a spiritual witness that Mohamed is God’s prophet. Then I should accept all the hadiths and live in accordance with sharia to build my testimony. As this is NOT the LDS belief how is that reconciled with the process of reading the BoM, pray about it’s message, receive a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith is Gods prophet, accept his other “scriptures” and live in accordance with the “standard works” to build my testimony?

It sounds the SAME! Both CAN"T work if this is a valid process, yet what you have described DOES appear to “work”…I think that makes the process invalid.

 

[majick275]

Majick,

Not to lose patience here, but how many ways do you want us to say it? There is no need to differentiate; all “truth” is God’s, no matter where you find it. Following any truth leads to one source, God. The Spirit will attest to the truth in the Koran, the truth in the Bible, the truth in the Book of Mormon, the truth in your math textbook, and the truth in the funny papers.

I am establishing the first parish of the Dilbert rite Catholic chruch

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Since the Book of Mormon quotes extensively from the Bible it is bound to have some “truth.” But did Lehi really get on a ship with his family and wind up in America? If that didn’t happen the Book of Mormon is worthless as a source of truth.

Do you see your contradiction?

As you well know the LDS Church does not allow its members to testify they believe the Book of Mormon to be inspired myth so it is, to paraphrase President Hinckley’s statement in a recent conference talk, either all true or a complete fraud. There is no middle ground.

Agreed, but that is an entirely different question. Your first question is whether or not truth is contained in the Book of Mormon. By your own mouth, it is. Therefore, it is beneficial as a source of truth.

Your second question is whether the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. President Hinckley was saying the Book of Mormon is either what it claims, a collection of writings of the ancient inhabitants of America whom Christ visited, or it is a complete farce.

Discerning whether a source is authentic is different than discerning truth communicated by that source. The Spirit will guide on both accounts, but they are two different questions. Certainly, truth in a source is evidence for its authenticity, for “every good tree bringeth forth good fruit” (Matt 7:17), and maybe that is enough to sustain faith as you seek an answer, but a separate testimony must be had if one is to accept the source as a whole.

I know this remark will breed ignorant remarks, but I’ll make the point anyway:

The source is not the heart of truth. Even the devils testified of Christ

“Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1:24)

Anyone hearing that remark would have benefited by accepting the truth in the evil spirits testimony. And further, I am sure anyone hearing that remark would have had a testimony of the Holy Spirit to accompany it, had the Spirit been available then.

From RyanL:

If the Holy Spirit convicts me of the truth which is in the Qur’an, and then convicts me of the truth which is in the BoM…how should I know which is right?

If the Spirit convicts, then they are both right. If what the Qur’an says is actually true, the truth in the Book of Mormon or the truth in the Bible will not contradict it. All truth is compatible and the source of it is God. The Spirit will testify of all truth wherever you find it. Where there is discord, we rely on the Spirit to “guide” us in our study and practice to discern what the truth is. (John 16:13)

 

[christianley]

Do you see your contradiction?

Agreed, but that is an entirely different question. Your first question is whether or not truth is contained in the Book of Mormon. By your own mouth, it is. Therefore, it is beneficial as a source of truth.

Your second question is whether the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. President Hinckley was saying the Book of Mormon is either what it claims, a collection of writings of the ancient inhabitants of America whom Christ visited, or it is a complete farce.

Discerning whether a source is authentic is different than discerning truth communicated by that source. The Spirit will guide on both accounts, but they are two different questions. Certainly, truth in a source is evidence for its authenticity, for “every good tree bringeth forth good fruit” (Matt 7:17), and maybe that is enough to sustain faith as you seek an answer, but a separate testimony must be had if one is to accept the source as a whole.

I know this remark will breed ignorant remarks, but I’ll make the point anyway:

The source is not the heart of truth. Even the devils testified of Christ

“Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.” (Mark 1:24)

Anyone hearing that remark would have benefited by accepting the truth in the evil spirits testimony. And further, I am sure anyone hearing that remark would have had a testimony of the Holy Spirit to accompany it, had the Spirit been available then.

From RyanL:

If the Spirit convicts, then they are both right. If what the Qur’an says is actually true, the truth in the Book of Mormon or the truth in the Bible will not contradict it. All truth is compatible and the source of it is God. The Spirit will testify of all truth wherever you find it. Where there is discord, we rely on the Spirit to “guide” us in our study and practice to discern what the truth is. (John 16:13)

Your whole line of reasoning seems to be that it’s o.k. to be a Mormon, it’s o.k. to be a Catholic, it’s o.k. to be a Muslim. As long as we act well we’re all going to be saved. That does not seem to me to be the teaching of the LDS Church which claims you must believe the Book of Mormon is literally true to make it to heaven in the presence of God the Father. So to some extent I believe you are being a little deceptive unless of course you don’t believe the exclusive claims of the LDS Church.

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Your whole line of reasoning seems to be that it’s o.k. to be a Mormon, it’s o.k. to be a Catholic, it’s o.k. to be a Muslim. As long as we act well we’re all going to be saved. That does not seem to me to be the teaching of the LDS Church which claims you must believe the Book of Mormon is literally true to make it to heaven in the presence of God the Father. So to some extent I believe you are being a little deceptive unless of course you don’t believe the exclusive claims of the LDS Church.

That is not what I have said. This thread is about testimony of truth, how it is gained, and where it comes from. I have not said one thing that would conflict with a testimony that the LDS Church is everything it claims to be.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

This website I got a kick out of they have these tracts and they got some bad things to say about many religons including our catholic religon. The intresting one i read on here about Mormons that one was the most wild one. They seem to put there refrences on the comic strip to not be heresy. They seem to have cleverly worded things on the catholic strip but if half this stuff is true on the mormons strip. I would have to say good luck to the mormons they are gonna need it

The Visitors click this link it is an intresting read.

 

[christianley]

This website I got a kick out of they have these tracts and they got some bad things to say about many religons including our catholic religon. The intresting one i read on here about Mormons that one was the most wild one. They seem to put there refrences on the comic strip to not be heresy. They seem to have cleverly worded things on the catholic strip but if half this stuff is true on the mormons strip. I would have to say good luck to the mormons they are gonna need it

The Visitors click this link it is an intresting read.

I wouldn’t pay a lot of attention to Chick tracts about Mormons or anyone else.