Your Notre Dame Mormon on The Apostasy

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I tend to agree with that.

interesting…I don’t disagree in theory, but were the nephites apostles? **that would give us 24 on the earth at the same time **and REALLY make one wonder about the validity of the Apsotasy theory, especially since 3 of them supposedly stayed around.
This is interesting because having 24 Apostles would make sense of this passage from Revelation make sense, it would become obvious who the 24 elders are in Revelation 5:7-9:

**Revelation 5:7-9 **

"He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the* twenty-four elders *fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation”
 
This is interesting because having 24 Apostles would make sense of this passage from Revelation make sense, it would become obvious who the 24 elders are in Revelation 5:7-9:

**Revelation 5:7-9 **

"He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the* twenty-four elders ***fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation”
Actually, the “twelve ministers” whom Jesus chose among the Nephites when He visited them after His resurrection were not called Apostles, and were not ordained Apostles. This is made clear in various passages in the Book of Mormon.

zerinus
 
Actually, the “twelve ministers” whom Jesus chose among the Nephites when He visited them after His resurrection were not called Apostles, and were not ordained Apostles. This is made clear in various passages in the Book of Mormon.

zerinus
If they weren’t Apostles how could the Church in America function if Apostles are required in the heirarchy of the Church? Isn’t that the biggest gripe about the Catholic Church, no Apostles?
 
If they weren’t Apostles how could the Church in America function if Apostles are required in the heirarchy of the Church? Isn’t that the biggest gripe about the Catholic Church, no Apostles?
I was always taught the Twelve in America were under the authority of the Twelve in the Old World.
 
I was always taught the Twelve in America were under the authority of the Twelve in the Old World.
How could that even be possible? The Bible is clear the Apostles taught the early Church through letters, and orally through thier visitations. They wouldn’t be able to do that to the Church in South America. And if they could then Jesus appearing to them is not needed, the Apostles could’ve preached to the South Americans the same way they preached to the Ephesians and Romans, who neither saw Christ resurrected.

I could be wrong too, but I thought the Church in America apostacized after like 200 years? If that’s the case then somehow they lasted without the benefit of Apostles for probably 150 years.

I’m just trying to understand the logic, I’m not confident in anything I’m venturing into here.
 
I think we can at least agree there is no Biblical support for the necessity of Twelve Apostles at the head of the Church.
I wouldn’t go that far. In fact, I have to disagree.

All that has been conceded is that the Twelve are not necessary to establish the Church, nor is an entire quorum of twelve necessary to perpetuate the keys. The LDS would argue the Bible fully supports this view.

Certainly, in the LDS view, when the Church is established and fully operational, there is always a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. They are an essential foundation for the Church. (Eph. 2:20)
 
I wouldn’t go that far. In fact, I have to disagree.

All that has been conceded is that the Twelve are not necessary to establish the Church, nor is an entire quorum of twelve necessary to perpetuate the keys. The LDS would argue the Bible fully supports this view.

Certainly, in the LDS view, when the Church is established and fully operational, there is always a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. They are an essential foundation for the Church. (Eph. 2:20)
My point there is nothing in the Bible which supports your viewpoint even Ephesians 2:20 as I showed above.
 
If they weren’t Apostles how could the Church in America function if Apostles are required in the heirarchy of the Church? Isn’t that the biggest gripe about the Catholic Church, no Apostles?
True Apostles existed, but they were in the Eastern Hemisphere, where Jesus has personally ministered, and there can be only twelve Apostles at any one time. The twelve whom Jesus chose among the Nephites had special divine authority from God to lead the Lord’s church in America among the Nephites; but thy would have come under the jurisdiction or authority of the Twelve whom Jesus chose in Palestine. Whether they actually communicated with each other in some way or not, I don’t know. Obviously they could not have communicated normally, because modern means of communication between the two continents did not exist at that time. But by the power of the Spirit, or by angelic ministration it would have been possible. But the fact of the matter is that there can be only twelve Apostles at any one time, and since there were already the Twelve ordained in Palestine, there could not have been the same Twelve ordained among the Nephites.

You ask, how could the church in America function without the Twelve Apostles, if they are requited for God’s true church to exist? The answer is that the church of the Nephites would have been regarded an extension of the one true church on earth, headed by the Twelve in Palestine. Today’s Church is headed by Twelve Apostles whose offices are located in Salt Lake City, but they have jurisdiction over the Church world wide. We don’t need another set of Apostles in London, Paris, or Jerusalem to take care of the Church in that part of the world. Actually, for administrative purposes, the Church is divided up into geographical units called stakes, and each stake is modelled as a miniature church. Each stake has a stake presidency, which is modelled after the First Presidency, and a high council, made up of twelve high priests, which is modelled after the Twelve Apostles. The Nephite church seems to have been organized along similar lines.

zerinus
 
I started reading this thread and was only able to get through some of it but what strikes me as odd (maybe this has been asked already) is that you “NMD” choose to quote passages from a book that you believe was written by heretics and people whom apostatized from the “True church”. How can you justify this! It is incumbent on you to prove that the great apostacy happened where the is none available. You only have Joes word on that. You can not in anyway rely upon a book by any of the people we would identify as church fathers. (for obvious reasons)

I pray your eyes open to the truth of Jesus and the church he created and still protects.

Peace!
 
True Apostles existed, but they were in the Eastern Hemisphere, where Jesus has personally ministered, and there can be only twelve Apostles at any one time. The twelve whom Jesus chose among the Nephites had special divine authority from God to lead the Lord’s church in America among the Nephites; but thy would have come under the jurisdiction or authority of the Twelve whom Jesus chose in Palestine. Whether they actually communicated with each other in some way or not, I don’t know. Obviously they could not have communicated normally, because modern means of communication between the two continents did not exist at that time. But by the power of the Spirit, or by angelic ministration it would have been possible. But the fact of the matter is that there can be only twelve Apostles at any one time, and since there were already the Twelve ordained in Palestine, there could not have been the same Twelve ordained among the Nephites.

You ask, how could the church in America function without the Twelve Apostles, if they are requited for God’s true church to exist? The answer is that the church of the Nephites would have been regarded an extension of the one true church on earth, headed by the Twelve in Palestine. Today’s Church is headed by Twelve Apostles whose offices are located in Salt Lake City, but they have jurisdiction over the Church world wide. We don’t need another set of Apostles in London, Paris, or Jerusalem to take care of the Church in that part of the world. Actually, for administrative purposes, the Church is divided up into geographical units called stakes, and each stake is modelled as a miniature church. Each stake has a stake presidency, which is modelled after the First Presidency, and a high council, made up of twelve high priests, which is modelled after the Twelve Apostles. The Nephite church seems to have been organized along similar lines.

zerinus
OH REALLY!

SO where can I find any imperical eveidence supporting this post. Did the North American Nephites leave any records or written documentation of this heirarchy? As an Archeaology buff I would sincerly love to study any archeaological eveidence for these North American Nephites. Please reach out with any info you may have, I would appreciateit!
 
This is interesting because having 24 Apostles would make sense of this passage from Revelation make sense, it would become obvious who the 24 elders are in Revelation 5:7-9:

**Revelation 5:7-9 **

"He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. When he took it, the four living creatures and the* twenty-four elders ***fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals, for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue, people and nation”
Revelations tends to be a very symbolic work. Lots of numerology in it. One theory is that the 24 are the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of Israel. (Judah, Dan, ephraim, etc.)
 
…/snip… But the fact of the matter is that there can be only twelve Apostles at any one time, and since there were already the Twelve ordained in Palestine, there could not have been the same Twelve ordained among the Nephites. still unanswered then is why Do the LDS have 15 ordained Apostles today?
 
…what strikes me as odd (maybe this has been asked already) is that you “NMD” choose to quote passages from a book that you believe was written by heretics and people whom apostatized from the “True church”. How can you justify this!
Just because the general population of the early Church abandoned the Apostles and their teachings, prompting the Savior to pull the keys and the priesthood, does not mean there were not good people in the Church remaining who sought to preserve what truth was had.

The Bible (for the LDS and the Catholic Church) is only a small collection of writings of the Apostles. The world owes the Catholic Church a debt of gratitude for what truths were preserved.

The Bible was not “written by heretics,” as you say, but is a collection of writings of the Apostles. True, the LDS believe that down through time, collection and translation has resulted in some error, but that does not remove from the Bible the general testimony of truth it offers of Christ and His Atonement. The LDS believe fully that the Bible contains the fullness of the Gospel, and we use it for such study in every respect.

As to your challenge, I quote it because it is a source truth we have in common. I teach the LDS doctrine from it for your benefit in debating and discussing as well as for my personal benefit in communicating. It is my favorite scripture to read.

Good enough?
 
If they weren’t Apostles how could the Church in America function if Apostles are required in the heirarchy of the Church? Isn’t that the biggest gripe about the Catholic Church, no Apostles?
of course they were “apostles”, once again amgid (zerinus) attempts to deceive you by mistating mormon teaching.

here is the evidence from the book of Mormon:

scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/2

Jesus gave the Nephite apostles power to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. Between A.D. 400 and 421

so according to canonized LDS scripture they were in fact Apostles.
 
The proof has already been given, hundreds of times.You like to go round and round in a circle, chasing your own tail. When we give you proof, you ask for a date; when we give you a date, you ask for a proof. So you really want me to give you proof/date/proof/date/proof . . . ad infinitum?

zerinus
Not once has there been proof given only unsubstantiated theories and false interpretations from a bible that dates well after your apostacy date.

Shnameful display of ?

Peace
 
Just because the general population of the early Church abandoned the Apostles and their teachings, prompting the Savior to pull the keys and the priesthood, does not mean there were not good people in the Church remaining who sought to preserve what truth was had.

The Bible (for the LDS and the Catholic Church) is only a small collection of writings of the Apostles. The world owes the Catholic Church a debt of gratitude for what truths were preserved.

The Bible was not “written by heretics,” as you say, but is a collection of writings of the Apostles. True, the LDS believe that down through time, collection and translation has resulted in some error, but that does not remove from the Bible the general testimony of truth it offers of Christ and His Atonement. The LDS believe fully that the Bible contains the fullness of the Gospel, and we use it for such study in every respect.

As to your challenge, I quote it because it is a source truth we have in common. I teach the LDS doctrine from it for your benefit in debating and discussing as well as for my personal benefit in communicating. It is my favorite scripture to read.

Good enough?
No! Not Good Enough!

How do you know what is truth and what has been hellenized? Do only the passages- that allow for interpretation that support your claims - remain true. Does everything else - that disproves your interpretation - remain untrue? Who gets to say what is true and what is false?

I know that the book of Mormon is all false because it flies directly in the face of “Holy inerreant scripture”.

Sorry, but that Dog doesn’t hunt!

Peace!
 
How do you know what is truth and what has been hellenized? Do only the passages- that allow for interpretation that support your claims - remain true. Does everything else - that disproves your interpretation - remain untrue? Who gets to say what is true and what is false?
You do, naturally.

Or…John 16:13.

Either way.
 
I’ ll take John 16:13 but obviously I have heard different words than you have. Makes you wonder if we are listening to the same Spirit.
 
I’ ll take John 16:13 but obviously I have heard different words than you have. Makes you wonder if we are listening to the same Spirit.
Parable of the Talents. Thank God Christ alone will judge.
 
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