Your Notre Dame Mormon on The Apostasy

[majick275]

to go further down that path, if there is a restoration that was necessitated by the apostasy then we should be able to see where teh current teachings and practices that are unique from the “apostate” align with previous teachings and practices. This is NOT the case with the LDS. The BoM doesn’t show current LDS unique doctrines/practices nor does the JST. The basis is D&C and modern revelation. Where in BoM or JST do you have eternal marriage? temple endowments? (and don’t give me it’s sacred so they didn’t talk about it cuz you can read Boyd K. Packers book on it at any LDS bookstore) Where is the “first presidency?” Where is the necessity of a quorum of twelve apostles? These comprise the most eternally important teachings and practices of the curent LDS church and yet we don’t see them in history even with Mormon scriptures. What got restored?

The only apostasy here was joseph smith’s.

 

[NotreDameMormon]

Are you guys really still asking for fool-proof objective evidence? Haven’t we hit this topic several times now? You will never have it with God. It’s not in the program. You have all the evidence you need.

Do you really think all of the teachings and practices of the Restored Church will align with previous teachings and practices that were pieced together from apostasy?

Of course it will have differences! If it didn’t, what was lost and what was restored?

The keys of the priesthood, the organization of the Church, and direct revelation from heaven were restored. Naturally, doctrines relating to these things will not reflect what was picked up after apostasy and hellenization corrupted the early Church.

 

[NotreDameMormon]

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary the meaning of apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty. NDM’s use of the word alone is wishywashy. Based on what apostasy means there should be a definite answer as to when it occurred… Saying its a process is a round about way of telling us there really is no answer.

I will be happy to define it as an abandonment of a previous loyalty. That fits perfectly here.

And don’t confuse the apostasy of an individual with the general apostasy of a group, multiple churches spread all over. The general apostasy of the collective churches occurred over time.

 

[christianley]

Are you guys really still asking for fool-proof objective evidence? Haven’t we hit this topic several times now? You will never have it with God. It’s not in the program. You have all the evidence you need.

Do you really think all of the teachings and practices of the Restored Church will align with previous teachings and practices that were pieced together from apostasy?

Of course it will have differences! If it didn’t, what was lost and what was restored?

The keys of the priesthood, the organization of the Church, and direct revelation from heaven were restored. Naturally, doctrines relating to these things will not reflect what was picked up after apostasy and hellenization corrupted the early Church.

You continue to make the assertion that hellenization was corrupting. This certainly would not be the position of the Gospel of John. The idea of logos is a Greek idea that John used to help explain the gospel. The Mormon assertion of an apostasy is simply wishful thinking. It can’t be backed up at all. What’s worse, the whole idea depends upon the truth of the Book of Mormon which time and again has been shown to be a 19th century work of Joseph Smith (probably with help from Cowdrey and Rigdon). Mormonism asserts many things which simply aren’t true. Native Americans are not descendents of Hebrews. Joseph Smith did not have the visions he claimed. The Doctrine and Covenants is not the word of God – how could God change his mind and have Joseph change the revelatons if the D&C is true? The Book of Abraham did not come Egyptian papyrii, but from the ramblings of Joseph based on his errant understanding of Hebrew that he was learning at the time. I simply have no reason to accept this assertion of an apostasy based on what Mormons have said.

 

[majick275]

Are you guys really still asking for fool-proof objective evidence? Haven’t we hit this topic several times now? You will never have it with God. It’s not in the program. You have all the evidence you need.

Do you really think all of the teachings and practices of the Restored Church will align with previous teachings and practices that were pieced together from apostasy?

Of course it will have differences! If it didn’t, what was lost and what was restored?

The keys of the priesthood, the organization of the Church, and direct revelation from heaven were restored. Naturally, doctrines relating to these things will not reflect what was picked up after apostasy and hellenization corrupted the early Church.

so we are back to having only Joseph Smith’s word that what he taught was a “restoration”? I still think it odd that you can’t answer this even with the BoM and the JST. Are those “pieced together from apostasy?” where do they explicitly teach unique LDS doctrines and practices? were they “hellenized” as well? (that would explain the BoM use of alpha and omega at least)

 

[PaulDupre]

Don’t forget “Adieu”, hundreds of years before the French language was developed.

It’s true! The Nephites all talked like Maurice Chevalier, haw, haw, haw! (Apologies to Mel Brooks).

 

[Integritus]

The keys of the priesthood, the organization of the Church, and direct revelation from heaven were restored. .

Only the absurd 19th-century Restorationsists like Jehovah’'s Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists, Campbellites (Church of Christ), Millerites, Christadelphians, etc. etc.can blindly defend a doctrine of “The Great Apostacy” and “The Restoration”. Why must they? Because without this core belief, their very legitimacy, their very reason for being, is void and false. - thus they rest their faith on such illogical ecclesiological doctrines, only to continue the momentum of erroneous and opportunist men who promised them new false gifts and status in Heaven if they built up these men’s churches.

There is NO restoration, only Jesus’ victory from the moment he entered into space and time and became flesh, and created and became the momentum of the One True Church. He spoke, we listened. He died and resurrected, we speak. Christ won and wins. We have the truth with us for all time, as promised by Our Lord - believe it. Thy Lord awaits.

No other Christian group can make such a claim as the following:

[continued below…]

 

[cestusdei]

NDM, you can give no date. Not even approximate. That pretty much destroys your argument. You say something happened, but cannot give even minimal details about it and no evidence it occured. I am afraid you fail the history test. On the other hand Catholicism has ample evidence, as you have seen, that no general apostasy occurred and that our Church has perdured since apostolic times.

 

[Integritus]

…continued from above]

1. St. Peter (32-67)
   2 St. Linus (67-76)
   3 St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
   4 St. Clement I (88-97)
   5 St. Evaristus (97-105)
   6 St. Alexander I (105-115)
   7 St. Sixtus I (115-125) – also called Xystus I
   8 St. Telesphorus (125-136)
   9 St. Hyginus (136-140)
   10 St. Pius I (140-155)
   11 St. Anicetus (155-166)
   12 St. Soter (166-175)
   13 St. Eleutherius (175-189)
   14 St. Victor I (189-199)
   15 St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
   16 St. Callistus I (217-22)
   17 St. Urban I (222-30)
   18 St. Pontain (230-35)
   19 St. Anterus (235-36)
   20 St. Fabian (236-50)
   21 St. Cornelius (251-53)
   22 St. Lucius I (253-54)
   23 St. Stephen I (254-257)
   24 St. Sixtus II (257-258)
   25 St. Dionysius (260-268)
   26 St. Felix I (269-274)
   27 St. Eutychian (275-283)
   28 St. Caius (283-296) – also called Gaius
   29 St. Marcellinus (296-304)
   30 St. Marcellus I (308-309)
   31 St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
   32 St. Miltiades (311-14)
   33 St. Sylvester I (314-35)
   34 St. Marcus (336)
   35 St. Julius I (337-52)
   36 Liberius (352-66)
   37 St. Damasus I (366-83)
   38 St. Siricius (384-99)
   39 St. Anastasius I (399-401)
   40 St. Innocent I (401-17)
   41 St. Zosimus (417-18)
   42 St. Boniface I (418-22)
   43 St. Celestine I (422-32)
   44 St. Sixtus III (432-40)
   45 St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
   46 St. Hilarius (461-68)
   47 St. Simplicius (468-83)
   48 St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
   49 St. Gelasius I (492-96)
   50 Anastasius II (496-98)
   51 St. Symmachus (498-514)
   52 St. Hormisdas (514-23)
   53 St. John I (523-26)
   54 St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
   55 Boniface II (530-32)
   56 John II (533-35)
   57 St. Agapetus I (535-36) – also called Agapitus I
   58 St. Silverius (536-37)
   59 Vigilius (537-55)
   60 Pelagius I (556-61)
   61 John III (561-74)
   62 Benedict I (575-79)
   63 Pelagius II (579-90)
   64 St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
   65 Sabinian (604-606)
   66 Boniface III (607)
   67 St. Boniface IV (608-15)
   68 St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
   69 Boniface V (619-25)
   70 Honorius I (625-38)
   71 Severinus (640)
   72 John IV (640-42)
   73 Theodore I (642-49)
   74 St. Martin I (649-55)
   75 St. Eugene I (655-57)
   76 St. Vitalian (657-72)
   77 Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
   78 Donus (676-78)
   79 St. Agatho (678-81)
   80 St. Leo II (682-83)
   81 St. Benedict II (684-85)
   82 John V (685-86)
   83 Conon (686-87)
   84 St. Sergius I (687-701)
   85 John VI (701-05)
   86 John VII (705-07)
   87 Sisinnius (708)
   88 Constantine (708-15)
   89 St. Gregory II (715-31)
   90 St. Gregory III (731-41)
   91 St. Zachary (741-52)
   92 Stephen II (752)
   93 Stephen III (752-57)
   94 St. Paul I (757-67)
   95 Stephen IV (767-72)
   95 Adrian I (772-95)
   97 St. Leo III (795-816)
   98 Stephen V (816-17)
   99 St. Paschal I (817-24)
   100 Eugene II (824-27)
   101Valentine (827)
   102 Gregory IV (827-44)
   103 Sergius II (844-47)
   104 St. Leo IV (847-55)
   105 Benedict III (855-58)
   106 St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
   107 Adrian II (867-72)
   108 John VIII (872-82)
   109 Marinus I (882-84)
   110 St. Adrian III (884-85)
   111 Stephen VI (885-91)
   112 Formosus (891-96)
   113 Boniface VI (896)
   114 Stephen VII (896-97)
   115 Romanus (897)
   116 Theodore II (897)
   117 John IX (898-900)
   118 Benedict IV (900-03)
   119 Leo V (903)
   120 Sergius III (904-11)
   121 Anastasius III (911-13)
   122 Lando (913-14)
   123 John X (914-28)
   124 Leo VI (928)
   125 Stephen VIII (929-31)
   126 John XI (931-35)
   127 Leo VII (936-39)
   128 Stephen IX (939-42)
   129 Marinus II (942-46)
   130 Agapetus II (946-55)
   131 John XII (955-63)
   132 Leo VIII (963-64)
   133 Benedict V (964)
   134 John XIII (965-72)
   135 Benedict VI (973-74)
   136 Benedict VII (974-83)
   137 John XIV (983-84)
   138 John XV (985-96)
   139 Gregory V (996-99)
   140 Sylvester II (999-1003)

 

[Integritus]

…continued]

141 John XVII (1003)
142 John XVIII (1003-09)
143 Sergius IV (1009-12)
144 Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145 John XIX (1024-32)
146 Benedict IX (1032-45)
147 Sylvester III (1045)
148 Benedict IX (1045)
149 Gregory VI (1045-46)
150 Clement II (1046-47)
151 Benedict IX (1047-48)
152 Damasus II (1048)
153 St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154 Victor II (1055-57)
155 Stephen X (1057-58)
156 Nicholas II (1058-61)
157 Alexander II (1061-73)
158 St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159 Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160 Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161 Paschal II (1099-1118)
162 Gelasius II (1118-19)
163 Callistus II (1119-24)
164 Honorius II (1124-30)
165 Innocent II (1130-43)
166 Celestine II (1143-44)
167 Lucius II (1144-45)
168 Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169 Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170 Adrian IV (1154-59)
171 Alexander III (1159-81)
172 Lucius III (1181-85)
173 Urban III (1185-87)
174 Gregory VIII (1187)
175 Clement III (1187-91)
176 Celestine III (1191-98)
177 Innocent III (1198-1216)
178 Honorius III (1216-27)
179 Gregory IX (1227-41)
180 Celestine IV (1241)
181 Innocent IV (1243-54)
182 Alexander IV (1254-61)
183 Urban IV (1261-64)
184 Clement IV (1265-68)
185 Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186 Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187 Adrian V (1276)
188 John XXI (1276-77)
189 Nicholas III (1277-80)
190 Martin IV (1281-85)
191 Honorius IV (1285-87)
192 Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193 St. Celestine V (1294)
194 Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195 Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196 Clement V (1305-14)
197 John XXII (1316-34)
198 Benedict XII (1334-42)
199 Clement VI (1342-52)
200 Innocent VI (1352-62)
201 Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202 Gregory XI (1370-78)
203 Urban VI (1378-89)
204 Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205 Innocent VII (1404-06)
206 Gregory XII (1406-15)
207 Martin V (1417-31)
208 Eugene IV (1431-47)
209 Nicholas V (1447-55)
210 Callistus III (1455-58)
211 Pius II (1458-64)
212 Paul II (1464-71)
213 Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214 Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215 Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216 Pius III (1503)
217 Julius II (1503-13)
218 Leo X (1513-21)
219 Adrian VI (1522-23)
220 Clement VII (1523-34)
221 Paul III (1534-49)
222 Julius III (1550-55)
223 Marcellus II (1555)
224 Paul IV (1555-59)
225 Pius IV (1559-65)
226 St. Pius V (1566-72)
227 Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228 Sixtus V (1585-90)
229 Urban VII (1590)
230 Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231 Innocent IX (1591)
232 Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233 Leo XI (1605)
234 Paul V (1605-21)
235 Gregory XV (1621-23)
236 Urban VIII (1623-44)
237 Innocent X (1644-55)
238 Alexander VII (1655-67)
239 Clement IX (1667-69)
240 Clement X (1670-76)
241 Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242 Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243 Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244 Clement XI (1700-21)
245 Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246 Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247 Clement XII (1730-40)
248 Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249 Clement XIII (1758-69)
250 Clement XIV (1769-74)
251 Pius VI (1775-99)
252 Pius VII (1800-23)
253 Leo XII (1823-29)
254 Pius VIII (1829-30)
255 Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256 Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257 Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258 St. Pius X (1903-14)
259 Benedict XV (1914-22)
260 Pius XI (1922-39)
261 Pius XII (1939-58)
262 Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263 Paul VI (1963-78)
264 John Paul I (1978)
265 John Paul II (1978-2005)
266 Benedict XVI (2005—)

Glory to God in the Highest.

 

[kellie]

Hi NotreDameMormon,

I have been reading the LDS web site.

This is an extract from it …

*When Jesus Christ lived on the earth, He organized His Church so that all people could receive His gospel and return one day to live with God, our Heavenly Father. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, His Apostles continued to receive revelation from Him on how to direct the work of His Church. However, after they were killed, members changed the teachings of the Church that He had established. *

What teachings did the members “change” after all the Apostles were dead?

And so does that mean the Catholic Church still teaches the “changed” teachings, but Joseph Smith was told by God what the teachings were before they were changed?

 

[zerinus]

I take it by this you claim the apostasy was a process.

If that is so, it must have a beginning and an end. You’ve stated when you think this process began. What I would like now is a date when it was completed, that is, at what point the entire early church was in apostasy. I’m not asking you to tell me from the Bible. I’m asking you to tell me from history.

Okay, if you really want me to pin it down to a date, I will try! But let me first clarify what I mean by the Apostasy. By that I don’t mean that there were no more good Christians left in the world, or that no one had genuine faith in Christ, which led them to acts of charity and good works according to the teachings of Christ. By the apostasy I mean the loss of divine authority to lead and guide the Church by revelation form God. The head of the church was cut off, and it drifted doctrinally and procedurally in the administration of the Church. The keys of the priesthood were lost, and the ordinances of gospel could no longer be administered authoritatively and validly for the salvation of mankind. So you ask, when did the final act happen? When was the last nail driven in the coffin, so to speak? That is what you are asking, I think. The answer to that is that the apostasy started during the life the Apostles, and it was completed when the last Apostle died, or ceased to be in charge of the affairs of the church. That is when the head was cut off, the divine authority was lost, and the keys of the priesthood were taken away from the earth. That is the answer to your question.

zerinus

 

[Saint_Michael]

I think. The answer to that is that the apostasy started during the life the Apostles, and it was completed when the last Apostle died, or ceased to be in charge of the affairs of the church. That is when the head was cut off, the divine authority was lost, and the keys of the priesthood were taken away from the earth. That is the answer to your question.

zerinus

So I guess the whole laying on of hands thing in the Bible proved completely worthless then?

 

[christianley]

The answer to that is that the apostasy started during the life the Apostles, and it was completed when the last Apostle died, or ceased to be in charge of the affairs of the church. That is when the head was cut off, the divine authority was lost, and the keys of the priesthood were taken away from the earth. That is the answer to your question.

zerinus

You know, you don’t have any proof whatsoever for this assertion. The life of the Church continued – in fact the Church continued to grow and the Holy Spirit manifested itself in miracles, etc. Only the Protestants denied miracles – the Catholics never did. You are willing to say that all kinds of second century martyrs never really had the Spirit – what do you think gave them the ability to die for their faith? You are simply wrong and quite frankly you show a lack of gratitude for Christians who carried on through really tough times after the apostles died. You really need to repent and be baptized.

 

[zerinus]

You know, you don’t have any proof whatsoever for this assertion. The life of the Church continued – in fact the Church continued to grow and the Holy Spirit manifested itself in miracles, etc. Only the Protestants denied miracles – the Catholics never did. You are willing to say that all kinds of second century martyrs never really had the Spirit – what do you think gave them the ability to die for their faith? You are simply wrong and quite frankly you show a lack of gratitude for Christians who carried on through really tough times after the apostles died. You really need to repent and be baptized.

The proof has already been given, hundreds of times.You like to go round and round in a circle, chasing your own tail. When we give you proof, you ask for a date; when we give you a date, you ask for a proof. So you really want me to give you proof/date/proof/date/proof . . . ad infinitum?

zerinus

 

[Kay_Cee]

Okay, if you really want me to pin it down to a date, I will try! But let me first clarify what I mean by the Apostasy. By that I don’t mean that there were no more good Christians left in the world, or that no one had genuine faith in Christ, which led them to acts of charity and good works according to the teachings of Christ. By the apostasy I mean the loss of divine authority to lead and guide the Church by revelation form God. The head of the church was cut off, and it drifted doctrinally and procedurally in the administration of the Church. The keys of the priesthood were lost, and the ordinances of gospel could no longer be administered authoritatively and validly for the salvation of mankind. So you ask, when did the final act happen? When was the last nail driven in the coffin, so to speak? That is what you are asking, I think. The answer to that is that the apostasy started during the life the Apostles, and it was completed when the last Apostle died, or ceased to be in charge of the affairs of the church. That is when the head was cut off, the divine authority was lost, and the keys of the priesthood were taken away from the earth. That is the answer to your question.

zerinus

Sounds like Mark Shea’s Pagan Creep Theory.

In order to buy it, we have to believe:

1. These supposedly apostate successors of the apostles were both teaching heresy in direct defiance of apostolic teaching while at the same time undergoing persecution, suffering, and death with an avowed determination to bear witness to the faith of the apostles.
2. Not one single Christian anywhere was willing to oppose these heresies even though they had heard the apostles with their own ears and were willing to die for what they had heard. They also managed to teach the exact same heresies to everyone everywhere in an age when transportation and communication were incredibly slow.
3. All these supposed heretics were still willing to defend scripture against the paganizing attacks of real heretics like Marcion.
4. The Holy Spirit came back in the late 4th century when these heretics held councils that canonized the correct books into the New Testament while, amazingly, leaving out all the heretical books that weren’t canonized. Yet the Holy Spirit was somehow nowhere to be found when these same 4th century councils discussed any other doctrine.

Sorry, can’t buy it.

 

[christianley]

The proof has already been given, hundreds of times.You like to go round and round in a circle, chasing your own tail. When we give you proof, you ask for a date; when we give you a date, you ask for a proof. So you really want me to give you proof/date/proof/date/proof . . . ad infinitum?

zerinus

You have no proof – only assertions that an apostasy happened. It’s simply your opinion as an attempt to show that Joseph Smith’s fraudulant work was actually necessary. But history only shows the continual growth of Christianity. History shows miracle after miracle after miracle down to our own day. The miracles have been experienced, investigated and validated. You continue to deny God’s grace to his people throughout the history of Christianity even though the evidence is there for all to see. You want to substitute the work of Joseph Smith for the message that God has used to build civilization for 2000 years. It’s a bad bargain.

 

[zerinus]

Sounds like Mark Shea’s Pagan Creep Theory.

In order to buy it, we have to believe:

1. These supposedly apostate successors of the apostles were both teaching heresy in direct defiance of apostolic teaching while at the same time undergoing persecution, suffering, and death with an avowed determination to bear witness to the faith of the apostles.
2. Not one single Christian anywhere was willing to oppose these heresies even though they had heard the apostles with their own ears and were willing to die for what they had heard. They also managed to teach the exact same heresies to everyone everywhere in an age when transportation and communication were incredibly slow.
3. All these supposed heretics were still willing to defend scripture against the paganizing attacks of real heretics like Marcion.
4. The Holy Spirit came back in the late 4th century when these heretics held councils that canonized the correct books into the New Testament while, amazingly, leaving out all the heretical books that weren’t canonized. Yet the Holy Spirit was somehow nowhere to be found when these same 4th century councils discussed any other doctrine.

Sorry, can’t buy it.

These are the false deductions and artificial assumptions that you are trying to force on it in order not to “buy it,” as you have put it. But none of these deduction follow from what I had said. The Apostasy was more of a process than an event. If you want me to pin it down to an event, that is as I have just described. But the rest of it was a gradual process. I can illustrate with an analogy. If you cut someone’s head off, he still has his limbs, but they are lifeless, and he cannot use them. It takes time for the rest of his body to decompose and crumble to the earth. The same is true of the church. When the head was cut off, the organizational structure that the Apostles had established still existed, and it took time for it to degenerate into something completely alien to it. Paul in fact compares the church to a human body, where every limb is necessary for it to function properly.

1 Corinthians 12:

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

So although all members are necessary for the functioning of the body, the head is the most crucial part. If the head is lost, then everything else is lost, and that is what happened to the Christian church. The head was cut off, but the rest of the body was still around, giving the impression that it was still alive, but in reality was dead, and in process of time it degenerated, doctrinally as well as structurally, into something alien to what the Apostles had originally established.

zerinus

 

[christianley]

So although all members are necessary for the functioning of the body, the head is the most crucial part. If the head is lost, then everything else is lost, and that is what happened to the Christian church. The head was cut off, but the rest of the body was still around, giving the impression that it was still alive, but in reality was dead, and in process of time it degenerated, doctrinally as well as structurally, into something alien to what the Apostles had originally established.

zerinus

And where exactly was the head cut off? The Pope and the Bishops as successors to Peter and the Apostles have always been there. There is no Biblical basis for believing there continued to be a need for Apostles and Prophets – the Apostles ordained their successors, the Bishops. Peter’s position continued to be filled through the Popes. The gates of death did not prevail against the Church as you claim. And it certainly wasn’t filled by a man who presented a fraudulant scripture like the Book of Mormon to the world.

 

[Kay_Cee]

These are the false deductions and artificial assumptions that you are trying to force on it in order not to “buy it,” as you have put it. But none of these deduction follow from what I had said. The Apostasy was more of a process than an event. If you want me to pin it down to an event, that is as I have just described. But the rest of it was a gradual process. I can illustrate with an analogy. If you cut someone’s head off, he still has his limbs, but they are lifeless, and he cannot use them. It takes time for the rest of his body to decompose and crumble to the earth. The same is true of the church. When the head was cut off, the organizational structure that the Apostles had established still existed, and it took time for it to degenerate into something completely alien to it. Paul in fact compares the church to a human body, where every limb is necessary for it to function properly.

1 Corinthians 12:

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
So although all members are necessary for the functioning of the body, the head is the most crucial part. If the head is lost, then everything else is lost, and that is what happened to the Christian church. The head was cut off, but the rest of the body was still around, giving the impression that it was still alive, but in reality was dead, and in process of time it degenerated, doctrinally as well as structurally, into something alien to what the Apostles had originally established.

zerinus

Then **when **was the process complete? The process would have to be complete in order for there to be a **total **apostasy.

BTW, how do you know the apostasy began with the death of the last apostle? Upon what facts are you basing this knowledge?