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pianistclare
Guest
Still not “forcing.”
Parents guide.
I read it more that she went one , and didn’t like it, found it “patronizing”.
I’d like to know how old she is, before commenting further.
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Parents guide.
I read it more that she went one , and didn’t like it, found it “patronizing”.
I’d like to know how old she is, before commenting further.
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Xantippe
Guest
That is a verrry good point.
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Lea101
Guest
There’s a difference between encouraging your child to go and threatening to take away privileges/whatever punishment y’all give if she doesn’t go. That’s the kind I was talking about. Especially if she is a late teen (don’t quote me on this but I vaguely remember from his old post that she is 17 ish, maybe 18 this year).
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Boy_Wonder
Guest
It’s been explained from the pulpit that in God’s eyes all human souls have equal worth and dignity.
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Karen107
Guest
Matthew some people think that since it says in scripture that men are to be like Christ in the family that means that women are somehow below men but that’s not true at all. The domestic Church (or the family unit) needs a body and a head for it to be whole. Men may have the responsibility to care for the family however the women also must serve the family and not take advantage of the men in their lives. The importance for men and women are explained in Pauls letters to the Ephesians this way.
Instructions for Christian Households
Ephesians 5:21**Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ*.
22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24*Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Now go on reading…
Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28**In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body*, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33**However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
So what we take from this is that men have responsibility to their family and the wives must respect their husbands. It doesn’t place one over the other at all but each member of the marital union have their own roles to play in order to become One in the Lord in Marriage. This is the same for Jesus (the Bridegroom) and His bride (the Church). Jesus did not come to be served but to serve. (Matthew 20:28) What he wants from us than is to love one another in Marriage and in The Church. We should all be ready to help each other in love no matter what our roles are.
In keeping with this there is an untruth going on that Fathers aren’t needed in today’s families. That cant be further from the truth. Fathers are needed just as much today as always. The problem is if Fathers don’t take on their fatherly role than the family suffers and furthermore society in general. So fathers are important to be leaders of the family especially when the mothers are watching out for their young children. I may be old fashioned but this is something that’s being lost in our culture. Both fathers and mothers are needed to raise a family to the best they can be and this is a biblical truth. Fathers should not shrink back and mothers should not keep the fathers out of their childrens lives unless absolutely necessary. It’s not an either/or situation contrary to what’s being said and practiced in our modern society. People give up too easily. Families have to make sacrifices for love and do their best to make things work out. With Christ helping a family can get through the toughest of times. The same goes in the Church. We all have a role to play. It may not be the same roles but all are important. Now can you see how men and women are BOTH favored by God?
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matthewww
Guest
Yes, I believe that is the main problem for many girls nowadays.
You aren’t wrong, but is it not almost impossible to accept something when you don’t believe? I can tell you a banana is actually purple, but you can’t truly accept it as truth because it is so clear to you that it is yellow.
Thank you. With all respect, I don’t think that will help since it is focusing on mothers, not women in general. I mentioned in the previous thread that she doesn’t like how Catholics only talk about motherhood when it comes to women. Nice article though
I guess that’s true. We do live in an evil world.
She is 15, turning 16. We do guide, I suppose. We do encourage our kids to go for events or groups. If they say no, we don’t force them. We do ‘force’ them to go for Mass, sins are a no-no, obviously.
I don’t think that’s the problem she has. Not a good analogy but here goes: I can say a janitor is important because he keeps the place clean. But at the end of the day, the manager is viewed as ‘more important’ than him. Even though both lives are seen as equal by any decent person, it is clear that one has more respect. Now she didn’t say it like that, I am just guessing from the conversation we had.
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matthewww
Guest
As they should, for the most part. I think a lot of Christians generally do not approve of the way people were treated then.
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guiltycatholic
Guest
Didn’t read through replies but I agree this reaction is more common than generally assumed. It’s why modern feminists usually aren’t Christian. The Church (and of course God) calls women to be humble, submissive, etc. Basically the exact opposite of what the culture says. Men are also called this way, but when the worldview is that women are already “beneath” them it can sound unfair. This attitude says “of course men need to be told to stand down because they’re always on top; women don’t need this.” You could start by asking what specifically she bases it on, and it might have more to do with something besides the Bible. IMO this is ALL about her feelings so she does need you to validate her feelings. After you listen to why she feels this way: “I can see how you might come to this conclusion, but let’s discuss how we can know that God loves men and women equally.” You might mention that a LOT of people interpret scripture this way, that people may try to use it against her someday, too, for example a man demanding sex because she’s supposed to be submissive. You might mention that certain religions have that interpretation, and allow polygamy and require women to behave in certain ways. You might mention how our culture has viewed women through the centuries, about voting, about education, etc. Then is the time to reveal what OUR religion teaches, that this revelation is the Truth about the dignity of women and all of creation, and that if she learns it she can use it to help find the goodness of God’s plan for her. I wouldn’t begin the discussion by quoting the catechism. She didn’t come to you and say “I’m confused about Church teaching on this issue.” She, a girl, came to you, a man, and said she feels that God favors or prefers men. Show some sympathy. Overwhelmingly, young women in the US have low self esteem, body issues, and many other wounds from the culture. Marriage isn’t valued anymore, motherhood isn’t valued anymore, true femininity isn’t valued anymore. She’s constantly told by the culture that the only way for her to be valuable is to squelch her fertility, get a career, dress provocatively, put men down; either be more like a man or degrade herself to suit a man. Honestly I’m surprised at your surprise. You have a great opportunity to help her here. She shouldn’t be shamed for it or dismissed with a couple of “facts.” You could point out a “most highly favored lady” our Blessed Mother and really help your daughter develop a strong devotion to her. It was through a woman God chose to do his greatest work. Point out all the special blessings God reserved to women alone, even today. Talk to her about the dignity of women, and the special treatment women used to get culturally. Tell her honestly why YOU don’t hold the view that God favors men. Talk to her about the ways in which women are, in fact, inferior to men, ie usually size, strength, etc. The place where God calls women is extremely unpopular in today’s culture. It’s extremely difficult to accept when you’re also trying to find your place in the world. Show her how God’s call to women is for their benefit. For every Biblical example of a women in a negative light, challenge her to find a different Biblical woman in a positive light. Maybe point out that many more men are mentioned in the Bible and therefore many more negative things about them. While the female counterparts may not have been mentioned because they were just quietly living the good lives they were called to live. Men may seem like the pivotal players, but it was often because of women that the men were there in the first place. Women are often “unseen” backstage, creating the entire scene, without whom there could be no story at all. Just being mentioned more doesn’t mean they’re necessarily being favored - a lot of it was their wickedness and punishments. The whole culture was so different from our own, it can be difficult to understand the way women were viewed at that time and how it would have been very strange for them to be written about like men were. This is more on the authors of the time. Not on God, who called up extraordinary women who were written about despite being women who were typically not as highly valued back then. Draw her attention to the saints, both men and women. Please don’t just dismiss her.
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ConfusedLucy
Guest
Thinking about this some more I don’t think it’s a bad thing for your daughter to see that the church on earth isn’t perfect, we all have to realise this at some point. In my case I remind myself that although I don’t really have a place in my parish community right now it doesn’t necessarily mean I don’t have a place in God’s Kingdom. Ideally all churches would be able to look at all individuals and their abilities and talents and be able to make use of them whether male or female but we live in a fallen world.
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Karen107
Guest
The manager is viewed as most important by whom? There’s the problem, there is this unfounded perception that males in the church are more important than the females while both are equally important when working together as the 'Body of Christ" = the Church.
The Church is not designed like worldly democracies but based on the principles of Christ where the greatest shall serve not be served…We learn this especially when Jesus washed His disciples feet. Now St. Peter had a hard time understanding that and did not want Jesus to wash his feet because St. Peter placed honor to Christ above himself, but the Church does not follow earthly standards where the greatest is served like you mentioned in your example of the manager and the janitor. That is an earthly perception. Rather the greatest (or the leaders) are beholden to those they serve…
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mommy_k
Guest
That’s very nice that your daughter is reading the bible. The part that is missing though is that as a Catholic, we are not to interpret scripture ourselves. We have the Holy Church to teach us about the gospels.
Iow, your daughter is taking the message of what society values and she is applying this to the gospels–and to God.
As for God being gentler with women, it is connected to how you were brought up to see God in your youth. Everyone’s perception of God the Father is different, and these are based on perceptions of what a father should be or expetiences you had within your own family with your own dad.
Howevet, it is not accurate to put your personal perceptions of what God is or how He approaches women or men, He is much much more than we could fathom… Again, we leave this to the church to give us insight to this mystery.
So as your daughter grows in faith and matures, these things will become easier for her to understand.
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Elena321
Guest
Personally,I never view managers,(or politicians,doctors or queens etc) as more respect worthy than janitors.Yes, I believe that is the main problem for many girls nowadays.
You aren’t wrong, but is it not almost impossible to accept something when you don’t believe? I can tell you a banana is actually purple, but you can’t truly accept it as truth because it is so clear to you that it is yellow.
Thank you. With all respect, I don’t think that will help since it is focusing on mothers, not women in general. I mentioned in the previous thread that she doesn’t like how Catholics only talk about motherhood when it comes to women. Nice article though
I guess that’s true. We do live in an evil world.
She is 15, turning 16. We do guide, I suppose. We do encourage our kids to go for events or groups. If they say no, we don’t force them. We do ‘force’ them to go for Mass, sins are a no-no, obviously.
I don’t think that’s the problem she has. Not a good analogy but here goes: I can say a janitor is important because he keeps the place clean. But at the end of the day, the manager is viewed as ‘more important’ than him. Even though both lives are seen as equal by any decent person, it is clear that one has more respect. Now she didn’t say it like that, I am just guessing from the conversation we had.
In my view ,this is a terrible worldly attitude but unfortunately I also see this attitude in many Christians too including Catholics!
Jesus never treated a person as “better” according to their occupational type or level and I think treating certain people with “prestige” or “pompousness” is the opposite of how Christians should be.
I also second the suggestion of guiding your daughter to read the lives of Saints such as Joan of Arc and Mother Theresa.
Reading the bible as a standalone will unfortunately only cause her to feel the way she does.
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Elena321
Guest
Personally,I never view managers,(or politicians,doctors or queens etc) as more respect worthy than janitors.Yes, I believe that is the main problem for many girls nowadays.
You aren’t wrong, but is it not almost impossible to accept something when you don’t believe? I can tell you a banana is actually purple, but you can’t truly accept it as truth because it is so clear to you that it is yellow.
Thank you. With all respect, I don’t think that will help since it is focusing on mothers, not women in general. I mentioned in the previous thread that she doesn’t like how Catholics only talk about motherhood when it comes to women. Nice article though
I guess that’s true. We do live in an evil world.
She is 15, turning 16. We do guide, I suppose. We do encourage our kids to go for events or groups. If they say no, we don’t force them. We do ‘force’ them to go for Mass, sins are a no-no, obviously.
I don’t think that’s the problem she has. Not a good analogy but here goes: I can say a janitor is important because he keeps the place clean. But at the end of the day, the manager is viewed as ‘more important’ than him. Even though both lives are seen as equal by any decent person, it is clear that one has more respect. Now she didn’t say it like that, I am just guessing from the conversation we had.
In my view ,this is a terrible worldly attitude but unfortunately I also see this attitude in many Christians too including Catholics!
Jesus never treated a person as “better” according to their occupational type or level and I think treating certain people with “prestige” or “pompousness” is the opposite of how Christians should be.
I also second the suggestion of guiding your daughter to read the lives of Saints such as Joan of Arc and Mother Theresa.
Reading the bible as a standalone will unfortunately only cause her to feel the way she does.
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Lea101
Guest
Well if I could butt in here…
Everyone deserves equal respect but i feel like maybe he meant that the manager is seen more important as the janitor. I don’t know how to phrase it, but i think you get the idea. An assistant is not as important as the CEO, the altar boy is not as important as the Pope…we treat these people differently although we love them equally. But it’s clear that the manager is more skilled than the janitor, the pope more educated than the altar boy and so on. That’s obviously the effect (treating people differently, not necessarily in a bad way) of a hierarchy. I don’t know, sometimes I feel insulted that there is a hierarchy/patriarchy in marriage, and it’s based on gender and not the person’s capabilities.
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ConfusedLucy
Guest
If you’re a person with good managerial skills but because of your gender (or race or social class) you are only allowed to work as a janitor then you will be pretty frustrated even if in your heart you know managers aren’t any more worthy than janitors. Likewise a person could have no ability to manage but be very good at maintaining a clean, safe workplace, if they are expected to become a manager then that has it’s own problems.
I do think there are differences between men and women but we can be too quick to stereotype both in and out of church.
I do think there are differences between men and women but we can be too quick to stereotype both in and out of church.
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Lea101
Guest
I agree
I would say there is no hierarchy in marriage if it is understood in proper context. Marriage is a partnership, especially in this day and age. I don’t know any catholic couple where the woman is submissive to the man.sometimes I feel insulted that there is a hierarchy/patriarchy in marriage, and it’s based on gender and not the person’s capabilities.
In my marriage, I’m the one who does the financial stuff, deals with the bank, electric company etc. Mainly because I don’t mind that stuff but it really frustrates my wife. We both make important decisions. But my wife probably does more tidying than I do. Not because she’s a woman, but because she is at home more and likes to create a nice atmosphere in our home.
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Elena321
Guest
A lot of people do see the manager as more important but personally I don’t because I see them as both contributing to the company in their individual way.Well if I could butt in here…
Everyone deserves equal respect but i feel like maybe he meant that the manager is seen more important as the janitor. I don’t know how to phrase it, but i think you get the idea. An assistant is not as important as the CEO, the altar boy is not as important as the Pope…we treat these people differently although we love them equally. But it’s clear that the manager is more skilled than the janitor, the pope more educated than the altar boy and so on. That’s obviously the effect (treating people differently, not necessarily in a bad way) of a hierarchy. I don’t know, sometimes I feel insulted that there is a hierarchy/patriarchy in marriage, and it’s based on gender and not the person’s capabilities.
The janitor might “only” be a janitor due to lack of ambition,effort and disinterest in the learning process,or alternatively they may be one due to a different reason such as not having the funds for further education or simply not born/gifted with the ability to do a managerial role.
If someone is respected due to the difficulties and challenges of their role,then I agree with this but what I don’t agree with is people getting prestige simply for having a certain title.
For example:some people almost “worship” someone if they have the title of doctor…
I have met some kind,good doctors but I have met just as many-actually probably more-who were arrogant and treated other people disrespectfully and like they were below them.
I also am uncomfortable with the idea of a hierarchy in a marriage because even if a person accepts that each gender has a different role,both roles seem to me of equal importance so why would one be “higher” than the other?
It also seems to me to be irrelevant to this modern age.I don’t know any guys that are looking for a woman that they can “assert their authority over in marriage”.
The only guys that I have maybe seen like this are the controlling type who should be avoided at any cost anyway.
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Lea101
Guest
You are not wrong in a way, but if one has to submit to the other, there is a hierarchy. No matter how sweetly one puts it, I guess. I also don’t get why there is a need to have one in a personal situation like a family. I’m probably just basing this from my family (once we were old enough to understand that dad was the ‘head’, we did not respect our mom’s 'no’s and we always went to my dad and try to create disagreements between our parents so we can get our way. Then again, my parents probably adopted us from hell soooo)
I see a lot of guys that do that. Besides the usual nasty red pill guys, there are always some men who believe that they should have a final say in things. The guys who don’t tend to be not religious.
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