Your opinion on homosexual relationships

[at9009]

A good litmus test is, how many people have heard of Wesley Hill? and how many people have heard of Elton John? And when most people talk about ‘gays’ or whatever, they can be insensitive to people like yourself, because in their mind they are referring to people like Elton John and others who are the typical understanding of ‘coming out’ meaning a homosexual relationship and same sex marriage etc.

Yeah I understand that. Just find it rather frustrating I guess.

I do think it would be good for Christians who want to have a better idea of people like me or even how to evangelize with this subject do more reading about this subject.

Dr. Wesley Hill, the example I used, isn’t just a random person. He is a pretty well established person, regularly speaks on the topic, and is a professor of biblical studies at a small traditional Anglican college (Trinity School for Ministry). Here is a good video of him talking on the subject with biblical support of traditional marriage, talks about celibacy, and goes from there: youtube.com/watch?v=aLNt4RS7G10-. I also would recommend his book Washed and Waiting for anyone (short easy read I think like 160 pages or so)

Another is Ron Belgau who actually spoke at the meeting of the families in Philadelphia and he currently runs spritualfriendship.org which is an a godo blog dealing with this issue from a traditional sexual ethic (It is ecumenical group though).

I think it would be good if you were a witness to SSA people who are chaste and agree with Church teaching, however, I don’t know yourself personally or the people around you to really say one way or the other. If the topic came up and I were gay, I would probably just let my parents and close family (Brothers and sisters) know, and treat it as no big deal because you have no intention of acting on it and agree with Church teaching.

I have wondered and do think that in the future, this cross is a tool I can use for evangelization. As frustrating as I am at times feeling like I’m in this no man’s land, I do think I have this advantage of having my foot in two lands: one where I have ‘some legitimacy’ to talk with secular LGB/ssa people and another with the traditional church to talk about how best to support/reach out/discuss this issue and give an example of someone trying to live with this cross (though I definitely don’t feel perfect and am still working on my chastity).

I would probably just let my parents and close family (Brothers and sisters) know, and treat it as no big deal because you have no intention of acting on it and agree with Church teaching.

If I thought they’d be able to handle it, understand, and not end up with negative consequences I probably would have disclosed. They have said rather negative things in the past so I’m not that optimistic unfortunately. Regardless if I try and make it no big deal, they wouldn’t agree and I’m not really desiring being a wedge issue in my family. So, I guess again as annoying and frustrating as it is, I’m in this imperfect limbo. Luckily I do have a built in excuse of a very demanding graduate work and then a future very demanding career. I will admit to longing to the time where I wouldn’t have to worry about and just have it be no big deal (It’s just not the reality right now). This is still viewed by and large a wedge issue.

 

[Peter_J]

Unfortunately when a TV character or other media related thing, comes out as ‘gay’ they certainly don’t mean ‘chaste’ in the definition.

You’re absolutely right. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone include chaste in their definition of the word “gay” … whereas apparently a certain number of people include unchaste as part of their definition.

I recall, a dozen plus years ago, Justice Ginsburgs saying something to the effect that sexual acts were the “criteria for inclusion in that minority”. (I wonder if anyone ever asked her whether a “straight” person stops being straight if he/she becomes celibate.)

And, sadly, some of our fellow conservatives also define “gay” in a way that excludes celibate homosexual persons.

 

[at9009]

And, sadly, some of our fellow conservatives also define “gay” in a way that excludes celibate homosexual persons.

I think in their weird logic if one isn’t active, they aren’t gay. I’ve heard plenty of things like gay celibate is impossible, that gay Christian isn’t possible, that chaste homosexual isn’t a thing. It’s definitely out there. I think some would even say because I’m living celibate I’m someone not a homosexual/gay/ssa person. It is I think their attempt to be helpful; it’s just not. It comes off (whether intentionally or not) as an attempt to erase my experiences and kinda pretend people like me are more of a theological discussion than an actual person.

When dealing with this issue, I always think of this quote though it actually has nothing to do with this particular topic:

“To be loved but not known is comforting but superficial. To be known and not loved is our greatest fear. But to be fully known and truly loved is, well, a lot like being loved by God. It is what we need more than anything. It liberates us from pretense, humbles us out of our self-righteousness, and fortifies us for any difficulty life can throw at us.”

 

[at9009]

I had mentioned Ron Belgau before but here is his transcript when He spoke at the Meeting of the Families with his mother on how to approach this particular issue from a Catholic perspective. Just a warning, it is rather long but I think it is a good read if anyone is interested.

spiritualfriendship.org/2015/09/26/always-consider-the-person-homosexuality-in-the-family/

 

[Peter_J]

I think in their weird logic if one isn’t active, they aren’t gay. I’ve heard plenty of things like gay celibate is impossible, that gay Christian isn’t possible, that chaste homosexual isn’t a thing.

Indeed. This is definitely one issue where I often need to explain to people that I don’t agree with everything that has been said by my fellow conservatives.

I mentioned on another thread that I recently read a bit of a book from Exodus (now closed). I pretty much liked everything I read, but there was one part where he (and this is their president mind you) said that holiness is “the opposite of homosexuality” and I was like “Um no. I’m pretty sure holiness is the opposite of unholiness.”

 

[at9009]

Indeed. This is definitely one issue where I often need to explain to people that I don’t agree with everything that has been said by my fellow conservatives.

I mentioned on another thread that I recently read a bit of a book from Exodus (now closed). I pretty much liked everything I read, but there was one part where he (and this is their president mind you) said that holiness is “the opposite of homosexuality” and I was like “Um no. I’m pretty sure holiness is the opposite of unholiness.”

I think this is this issue where they seem to forget that heterosexuality is also broken due to the fall leading to all bunch of disordered desires (just look at sexual sin among straight people, rampant use of contraception, pornography among straight people, hook culture among many straight people, etc).

For me being a gay/ssa celibate guy or let me phrase it a way they like: a guy who experiences same sex attractions. The holy path for me doesn’t mean to become straight. It is to take up my cross, resist my temptations (whatever they are), and pursue God. In the rare care if that pursuit of God includes a change in orientation, great praise God. If it doesn’t, it does not mean I cannot pursue a holy life.

I disagree though with the attitude that seems pervasive with groups like Exodus that heterosexuality seems to be treated the end goal for a same sex attracted individual and used as a maker of a holy life. The end goal is not an orientation change, it is to live a Godly live which for some may include an orientation change. Even if it doesn’t have an orientation change, some can still discern a marriage vocation. I think though that leads to an entirely different perspective and means entirely different kind of pastoral support and advice.

 

[Peter_J]

Until a few months ago, I was pretty ignorant about many of these things. (I decided to educate myself more, partly just because I came to recognize my own ignorance, but also for other reasons including the fact the a close friend of mine is attracted to people of the same gender as himself.) One thing that I had not realized is just how large the “ex-gay” movement is – I previously thought of it as a tiny subset of conservatives.

 

[at9009]

Until a few months ago, I was pretty ignorant about many of these things. (I decided to educate myself more, partly just because I came to recognize my own ignorance, but also for other reasons including the fact the a close friend of mine is attracted to people of the same gender as himself.)

Thanks for sharing this. I sometimes forget how much time I have had to spend on this particular issue that it’s rather unfair and not charitable of me to get frustrated when others haven’t thought about this issues as deeply. Also thank your for trying to learn more to be a better support for your friend. From my perspective, having a friend willing to that is a huge support, so I know they greatly appreciate it.

 

[Peter_J]

Also thank your for trying to learn more to be a better support for your friend. From my perspective, having a friend willing to that is a huge support, so I know they greatly appreciate it.

And may I say, I think it’s quite sad that a lot of conservatives seem to think that being supportive of a homosexual friend would be somehow incompatible with their conservatism.