M
Mysty101
Guest
Did you even read any of my posts? I’ve answered you a few times.
Practical, also reverent procession, as opposed to less agile people .(which do account for far more than 3%) struggling to kneel and get up.
- Status
Practical, also reverent procession, as opposed to less agile people .(which do account for far more than 3%) struggling to kneel and get up.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
So many people aquaint that with Vatican II and the changes of that time. Has it occured to anyone that it may have been the post-war atmosphere? Or the radical changes undergone by the world at large? Why is it the alterations made by the Council? Is the whole Haight-Ashbury/Woodstock/free love/pot for everybody thing to be blamed on the Council? It makes more sense to blame the whole thing on the Beatles, as my paternal grandmother did!
O
otm
Guest
Your statistics are seriously skewed by the fact that given all of the Catholics who go to Mass on a regular basis in the United states, only a very small proportion go to a Tridintine rite Mass, but on this forum, the proportion appears to be statistically higher; therefore it is not a showing of opinion valid to any larger group. If you want to start quoing statistics, then at least get some statistics outside of the individuals responding to this thread.Where’d I hear something like that before?
Oh yea, James Carvill just before the 2004 election.
By the way, the poll author is anything but a trad.
Finally, where is the statistical “lie”. There are many libs on this thread.
If the facts aren’t right, then where do I find your “truth” facts??
F
fix
Guest
I am afraid you are unfamiliar with things in the Church prior to 1962. It was all evil. The poor peasants did not know anything. Fortunately, some clever, forward thinking, non gender biased people led us out of darkness. Today we are superior, well informed and fully participate. Not only is standing binding under pain of mortal sin, but so is hand holding.
Now you have all the answers.
O
otm
Guest
And you cannot distinguish between a destruction of a tradition, and the change of a tradition.
O
otm
Guest
OK, now we all know your favorite reading is the Wanderer. There is no such thing as AMChurch; that is just the snot being blown by the Wanderer.
Polemical commentary is not going to enlighten anyone; it simple serves to isolate and identify you from everyone else.
O
otm
Guest
C’mon, lets not play the game of post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
And actually, no, the opposite has not occured if one was to consider the number of people at Mass, and the percentage of that group who receive Communion.
J
jlw
Guest
HAHAHAHAHA! Have I read the Wanderer before?? Yeah. But I’m not a guy who thumbs his nose at “anything other than a Latin Mass” for goodness sake!!
No, no. I really just want to know the answer. That’s all!
I’m not interested in “separating” myself in some stupid stereotypical “Hey, look at jlw, he thinks he’s holier than the pope!<<snicker, snicker>>”. I am just asking some fair questions here, and all I get is a snicker and an eye-roll?? Come on, otm.
The US Bishops do often look as though they don’t really care what the Catechism says or what Rome thinks, don’t they?? I’m mean really, don’t they??
Does the Holy Spirit guide the Megesterium in regard matters of faith and morals??? Yes, of course He does. Do they guide a separate NATIONAL (United States) conference or council of bishops in the same way?? Just asking. Honestly, just asking.
The reason I ask, is that *if *it is true that the US bishops directive that standing while recieving communion is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, then there should be a THEOLOGICAL explanation available as to why it is equally reverent (or more so, in the USA, that is?) to kneeling before the TRUE PRESENCE of Jesus Christ, don’t you think?? Does that sound reasonable??
F
fix
Guest
As opposed to the heterodox National Catholic Reporter which is AmChurch, but says it is not?
J
jlw
Guest
OK, not going to quibble with you.
I wasn’t around in 1965, just a glint in my mothers eye. But was it true that in the years that followed, less and less people went to communion?? Was this true before 1965?? Was it so that, in response, the priests, in their infinite wisdom decided, “hey, I know! Let’s do away with communion rails and kneelers so that it will encourage more people to take the Body and Blood of Christ more seriously!! In fact, they can stand and then…yeah, I got it, they can recieve *it *(not Him?) in the hand, too, just like a paycheck!! That’ll get 'em up to the altar!”
Ok, sarcasm aside (please forgive me), is this true that we had a decline in communion reception, and standing was thought to be a solution to this??
O
otm
Guest
Now that we have all thrown our bricks at each other, lets take a look at the physical process of Communion in terms of movement.
JLW, if I recall, you are form Gresham. If you go to Mass at Holy Rosary, by the Coliseum, you will see the following: people start kneeling at one end of the altar rail, with the next and the next filling in positions to the left of the first communicant. The priest starts distributing Communion, and as he has moved down the row three to four persons, the first communicant is getting up to return to their seat. We now have two groups of peole in motion behind anyone receiving; those going to kneel to the left, and those from the right moving towards their seats. It makes for constant movement, with people dodging one another as they move either to or from the Communion rail.
One of the first things that standing to receive does is reduce the amount of movement. Constant movements by a group of people does not add reverence to the process, but instead adds distraction.
The second thing it does is lengthen the time it takes to distribute Communion to the second (and third, etc) person receiving, as each has to move up to the priest or EMHC. A priest distributing Communion to those kneeling can distibute it faster than people can get to a spot and kneel. In fact, with everyone kneeling already before he starts down the rail, he can distribute a Host about every second or second and a half.
So the second thing that receiving standing does is slow down the individual distribution. Lengthening the time it takes to distribute Communion to each individual adds to the reverence of the process.
Standing also makes it physically much easier to distribute Communion under both species. It is physically more difficult to take the Chalice and receive if the altar rail is right at your elbow height or higher. When standing, nothing is going to block the movement of your forearm or elbow, causing a spill.
While kneeling is a sign of adoration, standing is a sign of respect. The bow before reception is also a sign of adoration. Further, no one is denied the opportunity to kneel in adoration when they have returned to their seat, and I find that most people do kneel after reception. For those who insist that they want to kneel in adoration, that is not being denied; it is simply being moved to a time about thirty to 45 seconds later, if that much.
It also makes for poor liturgical process to be moving from one posture to another, then to another; in other words, bouncing around up and down might be appropriate for dance, but I’m not particularly big on liturgical dance. Prior to the change in the GIRM, we were kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, then standing, then kneeling for the “Lord I am not worthy”, then standing to go to Communion, then kneeling individually (with the altar rail resembling the “wave” at a ballgame; one end getting up while the other was in the process of kneeling down), getting up, going back to our seat, then kneeling down again.
There is still a good bit of movement from the entrance procession to the beginning of the Eucharistic prayer, but it generally occurs over a longer period of time than from the end of the Eucharistic prayer to Communion.
So, receiving Communion standing results in a reduction of distracting motion, is a sign of respect, with a bow being a sign of adoration, makes it easier to receive under both species, lenghtens the time of distribution, and becasue of the lengthend time of distribution, acts to increase reverence in general.
Have I seen individuals receive standing who seem not to show much reverence? Yes, and I have also seen individuals not show much reverence when kneeling. The reverence an individual shows is much more related to the catechesis (or lack) which they have received than whether they kneel or receive standing.
I would not be the least surprised if there are other reasons we receive standing, but I suspect that the above probably have more to do with why the norm is standing than how many people have a problem kneeling.
JLW, if I recall, you are form Gresham. If you go to Mass at Holy Rosary, by the Coliseum, you will see the following: people start kneeling at one end of the altar rail, with the next and the next filling in positions to the left of the first communicant. The priest starts distributing Communion, and as he has moved down the row three to four persons, the first communicant is getting up to return to their seat. We now have two groups of peole in motion behind anyone receiving; those going to kneel to the left, and those from the right moving towards their seats. It makes for constant movement, with people dodging one another as they move either to or from the Communion rail.
One of the first things that standing to receive does is reduce the amount of movement. Constant movements by a group of people does not add reverence to the process, but instead adds distraction.
The second thing it does is lengthen the time it takes to distribute Communion to the second (and third, etc) person receiving, as each has to move up to the priest or EMHC. A priest distributing Communion to those kneeling can distibute it faster than people can get to a spot and kneel. In fact, with everyone kneeling already before he starts down the rail, he can distribute a Host about every second or second and a half.
So the second thing that receiving standing does is slow down the individual distribution. Lengthening the time it takes to distribute Communion to each individual adds to the reverence of the process.
Standing also makes it physically much easier to distribute Communion under both species. It is physically more difficult to take the Chalice and receive if the altar rail is right at your elbow height or higher. When standing, nothing is going to block the movement of your forearm or elbow, causing a spill.
While kneeling is a sign of adoration, standing is a sign of respect. The bow before reception is also a sign of adoration. Further, no one is denied the opportunity to kneel in adoration when they have returned to their seat, and I find that most people do kneel after reception. For those who insist that they want to kneel in adoration, that is not being denied; it is simply being moved to a time about thirty to 45 seconds later, if that much.
It also makes for poor liturgical process to be moving from one posture to another, then to another; in other words, bouncing around up and down might be appropriate for dance, but I’m not particularly big on liturgical dance. Prior to the change in the GIRM, we were kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, then standing, then kneeling for the “Lord I am not worthy”, then standing to go to Communion, then kneeling individually (with the altar rail resembling the “wave” at a ballgame; one end getting up while the other was in the process of kneeling down), getting up, going back to our seat, then kneeling down again.
There is still a good bit of movement from the entrance procession to the beginning of the Eucharistic prayer, but it generally occurs over a longer period of time than from the end of the Eucharistic prayer to Communion.
So, receiving Communion standing results in a reduction of distracting motion, is a sign of respect, with a bow being a sign of adoration, makes it easier to receive under both species, lenghtens the time of distribution, and becasue of the lengthend time of distribution, acts to increase reverence in general.
Have I seen individuals receive standing who seem not to show much reverence? Yes, and I have also seen individuals not show much reverence when kneeling. The reverence an individual shows is much more related to the catechesis (or lack) which they have received than whether they kneel or receive standing.
I would not be the least surprised if there are other reasons we receive standing, but I suspect that the above probably have more to do with why the norm is standing than how many people have a problem kneeling.
O
otm
Guest
No, as opposed to the National Catholic Register, which is true to the Magisterium and doesn’t engage in polemics, and treats its readers as intelligent adult Catholics.
I wouldn’t wrap a dead fish in either the National Catholic Reporter or the Wanderer.
I have too much respect for the fish.
J
jlw
Guest
I in fact do go to Holy Rosary, so your discription is very vivid!
Were those “distractions” at the altar rail a big deal prior to all the communion rails being taken out of many of our parishes??
I for one enjoy the kneeling at the rail because I am no longer “in line” any more, so once I am at the communion rail, I am not moving, not thinking about logistics of movement etc, but only God, and the seconds of anticipation before receiving the Host.
Thanks for your thorough response, and you bring up some very good practical points.
F
fix
Guest
You are entitled to your opinion. I think The Wander does much good and reports on areas that are overlooked by much of the Catholic press.
J
jlw
Guest
fix ain’t lyin’
T
TNT
Guest
Were you reading from Henry Ford’s Assembly Line Efficiencies?
The biggest attended TLM Mass I ever went to was the Bishop’s Mass at St Boniface in Pittsburgh…about 1100 people…many from out of state…several habited convents were there also.The ushers allowed each pew to go into the asle only when needed to approximate “1 pass” of the Communion Rail. Very organized. You only stood for the time it took the priest to make 1 pass down the rail. Now, get this:
ALL stayed at the Communion rail until nearly the last person the priest Communicated, received. THEN all stood, exited and the line behind went into place all at once. At that point the Priest was arriving at the beginning of the Communion Rail. Would have made Henry Ford proud. I Intoduced this to the TLM priest in my parish. He does the same now, even though it’s a small DeCalced Carmelite Chapel…about 150 capac. We just don’t need the ushers as all are familiar.
T
TNT
Guest
If it wasn’t for these rags, which I don’t subscribe, the homosexual priest predator agenda would still be going at near full speed…with young souls dropping like flies.
Everything has it’s place, even bad news.
We used to concentrate on Saints’ Lives, feast Days, Church history, the level of teachig excellence in the catholc schools competing with the public schools, a great book by a priest, etc.
Now look what takes up all the print space…endless interpretations of VATII, endless interpretations of the interpretations, scandal, arrests, forced resignations, excomunicated traditionalists, GIRM Warfare, whose in schism, reporting abuses at masses, scandalized RCC and children’s catechisms, church closings, bankrupt dioceses, district atty’s, no vocations, contraception, NFP, annulments… times have changed.
The experiment for world ecumenism is not giving anything to the Catholic family or it’s Parishes.
Ecumenism: The destruction of internal unity in the false hope of gaining external unity.
M
Mysty101
Guest
TNT You speak of reverence, yet you are so disrespectful of anyone who does not agree with you.
I have not seen the disrespect for authority or difference from the opposing side. I am sure those who champion kneeling in the US would prefer that you were on the other side. You really shoot down their argument regarding reverence.
Tradition? What happened to the tradition of manners and charity?
I have not seen the disrespect for authority or difference from the opposing side. I am sure those who champion kneeling in the US would prefer that you were on the other side. You really shoot down their argument regarding reverence.
Tradition? What happened to the tradition of manners and charity?
T
TNT
Guest
Sorry you feel that way. I have lots of charity. See many of my posts.Currently I’m replenishing, and until then I’m doing the best I can with honesty, and facts.
I keep my reverence for the saints, God, and my Faith. If you want some of it, just be forthright in your posts, instead of shooting the messenger.
The churchmen in the US are heavily corrupted. If you wouldn’t let someone like Bp Ryan, Weakland, or their ilk go camping with your son, why do you embrace their mutated faith and teachings through the USCCB? These types act like this because they have lost the Faith. You don’t pass down what you no longer have.
If you can’t see that the Catholic Faith is being progressively taken away, then maybe your descendents will, if there’s any faith left to examine.
J
JakeW
Guest
Mysty101, otm gave it a shot at answering WHY… so why don’t you??
- Status