Your opinion on Purgatory?

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… you have to admit that the Catholic church does have its own doctrine.
Doctrine - interesting word; its etymology lets you see that it is equivalent to teaching, body of teachings, learning.
Now, these three are for a Teacher, not for a student. The teacher as a teaching from which he teaches his students, an outline of what he has to teach the students so that they will understand, and also things he wants to make sure the student does not include as part of the proper understanding. That is doctrine, the lesson plan of the teacher, which he uses to make sure the student can see and understand everything properly, and when the student understands, he will be like his teacher, also able to teach, also able to see the full value of the lesson plan (the doctrine).

The Catechism, as an unfortunate example, has been used by students who have not yet been fully formed by their teachers, and they read what they do not understand and disagree with it because they have still opinions from elsewhere that are not yet addressed by their teachers. But the Catechism’s purpose is as a catechization source, for the teacher, so that he does not forget to teach everything he has received from his own teacher, does not forget to make plain all things personally to his student. It is meant to bring to mind in the teacher all things he knows are true so he can pass it on without forgetting anything. Then, the student will know all from his teacher, because his teacher will continue in person as long as the student says, “I don’t quite understand that.”

The Councils, if you read their documents closely, are not addressed to the world at large, but addressed to the teachers, to the ones whose commission it is to evangelize, to catechize, to shepherd. Doctrine, Teaching, is for the teachers, not for the students. The teachers are for the students, these teachers who know all things given to them are the ones we believe, who feed us as guided by their teaching to forget nothing.
Mathew 22:37 I must love God also with my whole mind. …
I love my wife, but do not understand her reasoning on things.
With God, I am loving someone, not loving thoughts about him. And I am coming to know him through the “angels of God” he sends to me to talk to me in his Name.

Paul spent a lot of words in the first paragraph of Romans explaining his credentials as one appointed by God to speak the official news of the Kingdom for the King (that is what ‘Gospel’ is - an official announcement from a sovereign (it is not generically ‘Good News’, but ‘Official Propagation of Official Government Communication from the Head of the Government’). And Paul made clear that the readers of the letter were to believe every single word of his without dissention. He would explain, but there was no room for negotiating where Paul would let go of some points if the readers could argue for a different opinion. He was the one from the King, and the dissenter or debater was not from the King.

It was this person, real, living, whom the readers were to believe in all he said, and today it is Papa Francis, my Bishop, my Priest, your Bishop, your Priest. The Baptized (including you) are to receive their pasture from nowhere else except where their shepherd directs them to feed. They hear their shepherd’s voice and know they are safe.
… baptizing infants - a mess with theology? …what a church tells us or what Jesus and Paul and Peter and James, etc. tell us?
No, baptizing infants causes no mess.
Here is what I know: I found myself resolved when becoming Catholic that I knew I was with the legitimate place of participation with Christ, at the feet of those sent to me (“blessed are the feet of the bearer of good news”- officially sent word from the King).
I knew I did not understand a lot of what was taught in the Church by the Church. But I was resolved that I would be hearing all good, all truth, from them, and that they would reveal all things to me over time so that in all things that I did not yet comprehend, I would indeed understand and also believe. So, I keep asking, “Explain more, I do not understand how this can be.” And it is explained and re-worded and re-stated and re-explained until I say, “Oh, I understand now” (and I do understand, and I have never been disappointed)

I find no conflict between my teachers and Jesus and these Apostles listed and I believe everything they tell us and fully know that I will understand it all - that is in fact the promise of Christ, that the Holy Spirit would bring all to remembrance, and guide me into all truth. The one who Baptized me (a Lutheran Pastor, by the way) gave me the Holy Spirit, and at my Confirmation as a Catholic the one confirming me gave me the fullness of this Spirit so that I would myself be fully equipped with his Gift of understanding what is true when my teachers explain. This is happening even today, delightfully.
…some churches teach doctrine that is in no way biblical… - or would it be preferable to study on their own. BTW, I am a sola scriptura believer …
FG
Sola Scriptura - I find I cannot be my own teacher. I am resolved to be a faithful student of the one sent to me. I am a good student, studying and asking questions of my teacher and never letting him rest while I do not understand. But I trust him as the explainer, the clarifier.

Yes, I know their are parishes where the Priest is not teaching according to his lesson plan. And that is where questioning for more and more explanation are the student’s gift of the Holy Spirit, who teaches us to “pray” (teaches us to ask for more). Eventually, if pressed hard by the student, most if not all teachers will refer to their lesson plan to find answers for their students (refer to doctrine and theology to see how to teach and what might be said in explanation).
 
I do not. Nor have I said that you have lied.
It seemed to me that you kept telling me I didn’t know the catechism after I had told you I know it very well. I had to prove it to you… Trust is elemental in a discussion. Then again, you don’t know me…
For brevity’s sake, I’ll simply say I found your definition of Purgatory as provided in this section of your post reasonably accurate. Before we pat each other on the back though, you went on to say…
… in spite of your fairly clear explanation of Purgatory immediately earlier in your post, writing this calls into question your understanding of Purgatory… or, I now realize, your conception of salvation as received through Our Lord’s death on the cross.
So either your understanding Purgatory or your understanding of the nature of salvation requires clarification.
Okay. Now YOU?RE confusing me. I don’t know what you mean. In my understanding (and that of all mainline christian churches - hate to have people reading along think I made up the rules!) purgatory doesn’t exist or is necessary. This is what might be confusing to you. No clarification necessary: If you believe in the Lord and follow in His ways, you are saved and there is nothing else necessary. When you die, He SAVES you and gets you to heaven. No purgatory necessary- HE is the atonement and the reparation and the sacrifice and the “debt-payer.” which was predesined from before time.
Genesis 3:15
Romans 5:17.18
No it isn’t. Our Lord obtains forgiveness for sins for us. We sin, we repent, we ask for forgiveness and we are forgiven.
We’re not going to agree on what gets us to heaven. Okay. I’ll just post my favorite scripture - which comes in handy SO MANY times…
John 3:16
Whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish. That’s all it says, nothing else.
As I have said repeatedly now, Purgatory purges our sin nature. Our sin nature was not addressed by Our Lord’s death on the cross. It is a separate problem and thus requires a separate mechanism to be addressed. And it could well be that the agent of purification is the self-same agent who purchased forgiveness for us by dying on the cross. It’s entirely possible that Purgatory is a direct action of Our Lord to separate us from our sin nature. That, however, does not mitigate the fact that Purgatory and salvation are two different things that require two separate remedies.
You’re right. We did not discuss the sin nature and that’s different from sins. But I don’t need to discuss it, Jesus takes care of EVERYTHING. That’s why he said from the cross: It Is Finished. John 19:30
He did it all. Nothing left to do.
Romans 6:14
Romans 6:23
You keep mentioning Our Lord’s death on the cross as being sufficient as your answer to your rejection of the doctrine of Purgatory, as though His salvific work has the slightest relevance to this discussion. It does not.
??? Oh my. It’s been a total waste of time.

HIS SALVIFIC WORK IS COMPLETE AND FINISHED.
THERE IS NO OTHER WORK NECESSARY. YOUR SALVATION IS COMPLETE. PURGATORY IS NOT NECESSARY.
Well and good, except we are not talking about sins. We are talking about the sin nature. Our Lord’s death on the cross obtains forgiveness for sins. It does not address our sin nature.
It addresses EVERYTHING. His sacrifice was sufficient.
The book of Hebrews helps to understand this. I was going to post some scripture but the entire book should be read.
Hebrews 3:14
Hebrews 4:14
Hebrews 5:9
Hebrews 8.1-13
Hebrews 9:13.15
Is it your position that clergy disagree with established Church teachings?
I prefer not to answer.
What do you think?

FG
 
Doctrine - interesting word; its etymology lets you see that it is equivalent to teaching, body of teachings, learning.
Now, these three are for a Teacher, not for a student. The teacher as a teaching from which he teaches his students, an outline of what he has to teach the students so that they will understand, and also things he wants to make sure the student does not include as part of the proper understanding. That is doctrine, the lesson plan of the teacher, which he uses to make sure the student can see and understand everything properly, and when the student understands, he will be like his teacher, also able to teach, also able to see the full value of the lesson plan (the doctrine).

The Catechism, as an unfortunate example, has been used by students who have not yet been fully formed by their teachers, and they read what they do not understand and disagree with it because they have still opinions from elsewhere that are not yet addressed by their teachers. But the Catechism’s purpose is as a catechization source, for the teacher, so that he does not forget to teach everything he has received from his own teacher, does not forget to make plain all things personally to his student. It is meant to bring to mind in the teacher all things he knows are true so he can pass it on without forgetting anything. Then, the student will know all from his teacher, because his teacher will continue in person as long as the student says, “I don’t quite understand that.”

The Councils, if you read their documents closely, are not addressed to the world at large, but addressed to the teachers, to the ones whose commission it is to evangelize, to catechize, to shepherd. Doctrine, Teaching, is for the teachers, not for the students. The teachers are for the students, these teachers who know all things given to them are the ones we believe, who feed us as guided by their teaching to forget nothing.

I love my wife, but do not understand her reasoning on things.
With God, I am loving someone, not loving thoughts about him. And I am coming to know him through the “angels of God” he sends to me to talk to me in his Name.

Paul spent a lot of words in the first paragraph of Romans explaining his credentials as one appointed by God to speak the official news of the Kingdom for the King (that is what ‘Gospel’ is - an official announcement from a sovereign (it is not generically ‘Good News’, but ‘Official Propagation of Official Government Communication from the Head of the Government’). And Paul made clear that the readers of the letter were to believe every single word of his without dissention. He would explain, but there was no room for negotiating where Paul would let go of some points if the readers could argue for a different opinion. He was the one from the King, and the dissenter or debater was not from the King.

It was this person, real, living, whom the readers were to believe in all he said, and today it is Papa Francis, my Bishop, my Priest, your Bishop, your Priest. The Baptized (including you) are to receive their pasture from nowhere else except where their shepherd directs them to feed. They hear their shepherd’s voice and know they are safe.

No, baptizing infants causes no mess.
Here is what I know: I found myself resolved when becoming Catholic that I knew I was with the legitimate place of participation with Christ, at the feet of those sent to me (“blessed are the feet of the bearer of good news”- officially sent word from the King).
I knew I did not understand a lot of what was taught in the Church by the Church. But I was resolved that I would be hearing all good, all truth, from them, and that they would reveal all things to me over time so that in all things that I did not yet comprehend, I would indeed understand and also believe. So, I keep asking, “Explain more, I do not understand how this can be.” And it is explained and re-worded and re-stated and re-explained until I say, “Oh, I understand now” (and I do understand, and I have never been disappointed)

ONE
 
TWO

I find no conflict between my teachers and Jesus and these Apostles listed and I believe everything they tell us and fully know that I will understand it all - that is in fact the promise of Christ, that the Holy Spirit would bring all to remembrance, and guide me into all truth. The one who Baptized me (a Lutheran Pastor, by the way) gave me the Holy Spirit, and at my Confirmation as a Catholic the one confirming me gave me the fullness of this Spirit so that I would myself be fully equipped with his Gift of understanding what is true when my teachers explain. This is happening even today, delightfully.

Sola Scriptura - I find I cannot be my own teacher. I am resolved to be a faithful student of the one sent to me. I am a good student, studying and asking questions of my teacher and never letting him rest while I do not understand. But I trust him as the explainer, the clarifier.

Yes, I know their are parishes where the Priest is not teaching according to his lesson plan. And that is where questioning for more and more explanation are the student’s gift of the Holy Spirit, who teaches us to “pray” (teaches us to ask for more). Eventually, if pressed hard by the student, most if not all teachers will refer to their lesson plan to find answers for their students (refer to doctrine and theology to see how to teach and what might be said in explanation).

John Martin
This site is giving me much grief.
I just lost a whole post to you and I can’t find it. Second time in one week.
I poured out my soul to you. I was a little worried you might send me a bill !
SO…
We’re going to have to condense. Not easy, being a chatterbox that I am but no choice:

I agree with everything you’ve said.
Including the CCC.
And about teachers.
I especially agree that we have to know JESUS and not ABOUT Him.
This is what I used to teach my catechism kids. Can’t get into it again -here’s the reader’s digest version:
Catholic - Protestant, due to lack of teaching in Catholic church - Catholic (come home Scott Hahn!) - Protestant
I could not agree with Catholic doctrine.
I admire you and, even though I don’t go to links, I’m sure many do and will be able to learn much from you. The Holy Spirit will do His work, I have no doubt.
I’m not here to argue. I have reasons why I dislike the doctrine of purgatory - it makes us not depend on Jesus fully - it turns people away from the church, and, I wouldn’t say this except that I agree with them!

I’m so sorry I lost that other post. I don’t even know how it happened.
But that’s it in a nutshell. My husband would be proud!

God bless you
FG

P.S. I think you probably won’t, but if the Protestant perspective in any matter interests you, I’d be happy to discuss it. I’m sure you know about them however.
 
John Martin
This site is giving me much grief.
I just lost a whole post to you and I can’t find it. Second time in one week.
I poured out my soul to you. I was a little worried you might send me a bill !
SO…
We’re going to have to condense. Not easy, being a chatterbox that I am but no choice:

I agree with everything you’ve said.
Including the CCC.
And about teachers.
I especially agree that we have to know JESUS and not ABOUT Him.
This is what I used to teach my catechism kids. Can’t get into it again -here’s the reader’s digest version:
Catholic - Protestant, due to lack of teaching in Catholic church - Catholic (come home Scott Hahn!) - Protestant
I could not agree with Catholic doctrine.
I admire you and, even though I don’t go to links, I’m sure many do and will be able to learn much from you. The Holy Spirit will do His work, I have no doubt.
I’m not here to argue. I have reasons why I dislike the doctrine of purgatory - it makes us not depend on Jesus fully - it turns people away from the church, and, I wouldn’t say this except that I agree with them!

I’m so sorry I lost that other post. I don’t even know how it happened.
But that’s it in a nutshell. My husband would be proud!

God bless you
FG

P.S. I think you probably won’t, but if the Protestant perspective in any matter interests you, I’d be happy to discuss it. I’m sure you know about them however.
Just a hint, FG, that I do with long replies - I type them in Notepad or Word or some text editor, then when done, copy and paste them into the reply page here; if there is an issue (like the 6000 character length or submitting the reply) then I can paste and paste again until it works. I have lost so many that now I do this almost automatically (we all love our thoughts and hate it when the forum loses them)
 
I think that it represents a misunderstanding of God’s mercy. In Islam, we teach that when God forgives, that’s the end of it. You don’t have to pay for your sins as you go. Simple repentance is all that is needed for God to forgive you and grant you blank slate.
 
It seemed to me that you kept telling me I didn’t know the catechism after I had told you I know it very well. I had to prove it to you…
Your mischaracterizations of it provided no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt.
When you die, He SAVES you and gets you to heaven. No purgatory necessary- HE is the atonement and the reparation and the sacrifice and the “debt-payer.” which was predesined from before time.
We’ll revisit this momentarily.
John 3:16
Whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish. That’s all it says, nothing else.
That outlines a principle; not necessarily a process.
HIS SALVIFIC WORK IS COMPLETE AND FINISHED.
I agree.
THERE IS NO OTHER WORK NECESSARY.
I agree.
YOUR SALVATION IS COMPLETE.
I agree.
PURGATORY IS NOT NECESSARY.
I generally disagree.
Hebrews 3:14
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature.
Hebrews 4:14
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature.
Hebrews 5:9
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. It speaks to salvation, which is nice, but irrelevant to this discussion.
Hebrews 8.1-13
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. While the tail end relates somewhat to salvation, the more relevant principle being expressed is the founding of the New Covenant. In summarizing it so, the writer is, again, expressing a principle (eg, God will show mercy) but not so much explaining a process.
Hebrews 9:13.15
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. It clearly states that forgiveness of transgressions is now possible through Our Lord’s sacrifice. It is entirely silent as to the issue of our fallen nature or, indeed, the remedy for our fallen nature.

In summary for all these passages, it looks as though you’re extrapolating the end results of Our Lord’s sacrifice beyond forgiving sins which have been committed and extending his sacrificial death on the cross to include our sinful nature. However, based on the passages you have cited, there appears to be nothing specific in Sacred Scripture that says His death achieved that purpose.

To be clear, the Church teaches that forgiveness for transgressions is the means of salvation. This is the process whereby we may go to Heaven upon death. And from the looks of things, you and I agree on this point.

Further, your tendency appears to be extending His redemptive work even to the removal of our fallen nature. On this point we appear to disagree sharply.

However, without granting that premise, for discussion’s sake, let’s assume it is true. For the moment, let us conjecture that Our Lord’s death on the cross also cleanses us of our sin nature.

My question to you is this: When does that cleansing process occur? Are we cleansed of our sin nature upon first believing in Our Lord? Does it happen when we are baptized? Does it happen when we receive our first communion? Does it happen at death? Does it happen at some other time?

When precisely, in your view, are we cleansed of our sin nature?
I prefer not to answer.
What do you think?
Not the issue. I merely questioned whether you doubt the clergy’s fealty to established Catholic doctrine. The question stands.
 
As Catholics, we all believe Purgatory exists. However, I have noticed that it isn’t the most popular of doctrines, and that many people don’t like to spend time thinking about it.

I understand why it is not “liked.” It is a place of some amount of pain, suffering and privation to “prepare” you for your ultimate reward.

For some peculiar reason… not only do I believe purgatory exists, but it makes quite a bit of sense to me. The simple fact is I believe, that there are many people who sincerely love and serve God but are also enslaved by certain sins or addictions (to substances,sins, ideas, etc.) and may not entirely have given up on or “abandoned” those attachments while they still lived.

While there love for God and their fellow man was real and true, there are still things to be “sorted out” or "purged’ before they can take part in their ultimate reward.

Many of the Church fathers believed that the pains of purgatory were the same as the pains of hell, but somehow I doubt this is the case. For starters it isn’t as bad because they know it is temporary. Secondly it isn’t because… unlike Hell purgatory is a place of God and virtue to some degree. There likely is pain there of some sort but… the popular image of souls “roasting” in purgatory, like in a furnace… I am not sure I buy into it:blush:.

I feel the purpose of one there… is to change… to be prepared… it seems the sort of suffering, would not be passive in nature, but rather cooperative filled with “learning” so to speak, by focusing on the particular sins or failings they were inclined to in this life… and knowing and learning about the opposite virtues.

Among the other pains that exist there, I imagine is the pain of knowing how petty and shortsighted it was to love and be attached to their sins. God will be made known to them as their ultimate end and desire, and their sadness/frustration might be great knowing they can’t be with him “just yet.”

Dante himself apparently shared my opinion. In his fictional account of purgatory, the holy souls there do engage in labor/punishment of some sort, but their pain is laced with great beauty and learning as well. The souls inclined to pride are treated to a vision/performance of the Virgin Mary accepting her duty to bear Jesus into this world (the virtue of humility… pride’s opposite.) The souls of the wrathful are treated to a vision of the finding in the temple, where instead of being angry, Joseph + Mary are overjoyed to find Jesus safe in the temple (meeknes… angers opposite.)

Im not asking what you all believe necessarily, but what is your opinion of purgatory? Do you like it? Does it give you some… peace of mind/sense of God’s perfect justice?

I… don’t dread purgatory ( since I don’t know if it is dreadful) but would probably be saddened to have to go there. At times though… it does seem purgatory is the best I or many others can reasonably hope for 😊
The Lord Jesus revealed Purgatory to St. Maria Faustina. She noticed something about the Holy Souls of Purgatory that we need to know. One was the Holy Souls of Purgatory cannot help themselves for God depends on us who are on Earth to make prayers for them. Second all the Holy Souls long for God. Jesus said to St. Maria that His Mercy does not want this for the Holy Souls of Purgatory but His Justice needs it. Even though God’s Justice must render the Holy Souls to wait for graces we must understand that it is still God’s Mercy which these souls all need. Since these souls cannot attend to the Church anymore personally to receive graces it falls on us who have remained in Earth to plead for mercy for them by praying for them and attending to the Sacraments for them. So here the Mercy of God still envelopes the Holy Souls of Purgatory because someone on Earth still pleads to God for them. While the Justice of God holds these Holy Souls in Purgatory the Mercy of God releases them in time. God is very dependent on His Church to help Him to dispense His graces to the Holy Souls. The only time when God releases all the Holy Souls of Purgatory on His own will be at the Second Coming of His Son. Purgatory makes sense because in time you will become this saint for God for it is a delayed time. You had all the opportunities to be a saint in this life meaning you can be in Heaven now in this life. God extending this time after death so that this Heaven will be formed in you if you are in need of it is an excellent choice that God has given for us. It is a marvelous invention of what kind of love He bestows upon us. We need to thank Him for giving Purgatory for us!
 
Just a hint, FG, that I do with long replies - I type them in Notepad or Word or some text editor, then when done, copy and paste them into the reply page here; if there is an issue (like the 6000 character length or submitting the reply) then I can paste and paste again until it works. I have lost so many that now I do this almost automatically (we all love our thoughts and hate it when the forum loses them)
Thanks for the advice. Of course this shouldn’t happen - I guess they can’t fix it.
I’ll do what you said. Yes. It was VERY frustrating because I told my entire journey (which I usually don’t do but you were very nice.)

Be blessed
Fran
 
Just a hint, FG, that I do with long replies - I type them in Notepad or Word or some text editor, then when done, copy and paste them into the reply page here; if there is an issue (like the 6000 character length or submitting the reply) then I can paste and paste again until it works. I have lost so many that now I do this almost automatically (we all love our thoughts and hate it when the forum loses them)
I have no idea why that limitation exists… but I would imagine it’s done so that people will be a bit more judicious with the length of their posts.

Put another way, it might be an effort to prevent people from writing posts that are .9% a quote from someone else’s post, .1% the member’s own remarks and 99% Scripture quotations… which is the incredibly annoying state of affairs on a lot of other Christian forums.

Not sure if I’m actually right but that would be my reason for the character limit.
 
Your mischaracterizations of it provided no reason to give you the benefit of the doubt.

We’ll revisit this momentarily.
You’re very interested in the sin nature. Maybe we should be discussing that instead of purgatory. Of course, the sin nature is found in the book of Romans - but you had asked how Jesus death took care of that. There is not one sentence in the bible that says “Jesus died to take away our Sin Nature.” Is there a sentence that says “Purgatory exists and you will probably have to go there to be purged.”

See? The INFERENCE is all throughout Paul’s writings that Jesus salvific work was complete and needed NO OTHER source of help.
That outlines a principle; not necessarily a process.
Never heard that one before. I’m just wondering where you learned it.
So that would mean that Mathew chapters 5, 6 and 7 are a Principle and not a Process? So that means I don’t have to DO anything the bible tells me since it’s a Principle. Right? And how do I determine what is a principle and what is a process? What would it depend on?

Jesus and Paul and James and Peter didn’t say things because they’re a principle, they said them because they meant them and we’re to follow them. In theory EVERYTHING in the bible is a principle - but you cannot use this explanation to wipe away something Jesus or Paul plainly stated as a TRUTH.
I generally disagree.
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature.
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature.

Okay. I don’t understand how you could agree AND still believe in purgatory. But okay. We all have our beliefs. I answered re the Sin Nature. Jesus took care of IT ALL.
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. It speaks to salvation, which is nice, but irrelevant to this discussion.
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. While the tail end relates somewhat to salvation, the more relevant principle being expressed is the founding of the New Covenant. In summarizing it so, the writer is, again, expressing a principle (eg, God will show mercy) but not so much explaining a process.
This passage has nothing to do with sin nature. It clearly states that forgiveness of transgressions is now possible through Our Lord’s sacrifice. It is entirely silent as to the issue of our fallen nature or, indeed, the remedy for our fallen nature.

Did I post Genesis 3:15 ? What does it mean to you? (I can’t do all the work here!)
Genesis is the book that speaks to the beginning of the sin nature. What does God say He (God, but Jesus doing the action) will do to satan? What did satan release in the Garden of Eden? Hint. The initials are S.N.
In summary for all these passages, it looks as though you’re extrapolating the end results of Our Lord’s sacrifice beyond forgiving sins which have been committed and extending his sacrificial death on the cross to include our sinful nature. However, based on the passages you have cited, there appears to be nothing specific in Sacred Scripture that says His death achieved that purpose.
I explained this in my very first answer up above. You have to infer that if Jesus’ work is complete, then it must necessarily include the sin nature. But I understand if you choose not to believe that. This is what purgatory is all about and this is why I cannot agree with it. It twists all the doctrine that Paul puts forth and creates dependency on ourselves instead of on the Lord.

We have a sin nature. When God created everything, somehow that sin nature got in the mix. He told Adam not to eat of the fruit, but He left Adam with the freedom to choose whether or not to eat it. So, if you think of it, purgatory is unjust because God gave us the CHOICE to obey Him or not, gave us Jesus to forgive our sins, but then sends us to purgatory because we used that choice mechanism He gave us. Does this sound right to you??

ONE
 
TWO The Colorsblend
To be clear, the Church teaches that forgiveness for transgressions is the means of salvation. This is the process whereby we may go to Heaven upon death. And from the looks of things, you and I agree on this point.
I agree that sins must be forgiven. Catholics go to a priest and Protestants to go God. Same difference. That’s another discussion - not for here. However, you used the word “process.” I’d say the PROCESS of going to heaven is that Jesus went to the cross. He opened up the gates of heaven. People couldn’t go before that - they had to wait in Abraham’s Bossom. But, yes, we agree that sin must be forgiven.
Further, your tendency appears to be extending His redemptive work even to the removal of our fallen nature. On this point we appear to disagree sharply.
However, without granting that premise, for discussion’s sake, let’s assume it is true. For the moment, let us conjecture that Our Lord’s death on the cross also cleanses us of our sin nature.
My question to you is this: When does that cleansing process occur? Are we cleansed of our sin nature upon first believing in Our Lord? Does it happen when we are baptized? Does it happen when we receive our first communion? Does it happen at death? Does it happen at some other time?
When precisely, in your view, are we cleansed of our sin nature?
In Catholic theology it would occur at baptism when Justification and Sanctification are received. (this is MY opinion)

In Protestant theology it would occur at the moment of salvation. Now, it would require some more questions because I’d have to know for sure what you mean by:
“cleansed” of our sin nature. It never disappears. We are transformed
Romans 12:2

Romans 5:1-2 speaks to how we have peace with God and are justified by faith. It speaks to His grace. It’s His grace we’re depending on. It speaks to how we STAND in this grace. Why would this grace cover sins and not the S.N. ?

Romans 5:17-18
By one man, Adam, transgression (sin nature) death reigned on all -
By one man, Jesus, and His act of righteousness, there resulted justification to all men.

Through Adam the S.N. entered, and through Jesus it is taken care of. Justified means God’s grace takes care of the sin or sins.
Not the issue. I merely questioned whether you doubt the clergy’s fealty to established Catholic doctrine. The question stands.
The original question was:
“Is it your position that clergy disagree with established Church teachings?”
Yes.

FG
 
You’re very interested in the sin nature. Maybe we should be discussing that instead of purgatory. Of course, the sin nature is found in the book of Romans - but you had asked how Jesus death took care of that. There is not one sentence in the bible that says “Jesus died to take away our Sin Nature.” Is there a sentence that says “Purgatory exists and you will probably have to go there to be purged.”
Actually, there is something that Paul wrote ("[Jesus] was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.") that shows the arrangement:
He died the sentence of death (for the forgiveness of our sentence of death to be given to us when we seek absolution),
and his resurrection was for our “justification” which is the dealing with the old nature, the “sin nature” and creating us in a new birth. When he was raised, he went to his disciples and breathed on them and gave them his Holy Spirit (which they inhaled into themselves, into their souls, which were then new creatures, and which Holy Spirit they give to us in our Baptism and Confirmation).

The Holy Spirit is here making us new creatures by his resurrection, and this is different than God not counting our past sins any more as the debt we owe or the death we deserve.

There is forgiveness of sins
and
there is a new creature (justification), a “good person”

Psalm 51 is what a person experiences of the Salvation given by God in Christ.
It could be viewed as the premier Act of Contrition, and it reveals a lot about forgiveness of sin and the “sin nature”.
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
Here, Mercy is begged for, meaning Forgiveness of Sins is requested. This is about asking that the sentence of “Eternal Death” be removed.
(Removing the death sentence is mercy - saying that a guilty person is “not guilty” is a ruling of justice about the crime, it is the judge saying “no crime was committed, but the person is justified in having done the deeds they did”)
Let me live (mercy) and do not put me on trial again for these sins.

2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!
Here, the penitent is asking that the “iniquity”, the “inequality he created by injustice” be cleansed.
Here he is asking that God would do something TO HIM, not asking that God do something inside God.
“Apply cleaning to me so that I do things justly from now on, do something to my nature so that I will not sin against you but instead do only justice to you and my neighbor.”

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you may be justified in your words
and blameless in your judgment.
“I know the injustices I have done for self-benefit, and no matter what transgression of justice, it has all been really against you…”

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,
and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.
“… and I see my ‘sin nature’. It is more than simply sins. It is my inward being that I am seeking help for, also, not just that you remove the death sentence, because I want to be your friend again.
I have not had truth in my inward being, but you have now been teaching me wisdom in the secret heart of mine”

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice
“After you have mercy and remove the death sentence, also do something TO ME, to my nature, so that I am not filthy but only wearing a clean robe - clean me fully so that I am actually good through and through, so that I am virtuous as you are virtuous, perfect as you are perfect, fully white as snow just as Jesus shined on the Mountain of Transfiguration, so that I am fully like Him”.

9 Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.
“To re-state it in summary,
FIRST: Have Mercy and do not carry out the sentence of death; let go of the debt I rightly owe to you.”
“SECOND: Do a work of Grace within me, by your Holy Spirit, where you will renew me into a person of Justice who does not do evil but instead does good (give me the Virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity so that all my works will now be works of Faith, Hope and Charity, rather than works of Vice).”
 
You’re very interested in the sin nature. Maybe we should be discussing that instead of purgatory.
We are discussing it. By discussing Purgatory, we discuss our fallen nature as Purgatory can purify us from our tendency toward sin.
Is there a sentence that says “Purgatory exists and you will probably have to go there to be purged.”
Those precise words? No. But the effects of Purgatory are quite aptly described in 1 Corinthians 3.
I don’t understand how you could agree AND still believe in purgatory.
As I have explained (repeatedly at this point), there is a distinction to be drawn between forgiveness of transgressions/sins (achieved through Our Lord’s sacrificial death on the cross) and the process whereby man is cleansed from his nature toward sin (possibly achieved through Purgatory).
But okay. We all have our beliefs. I answered re the Sin Nature. Jesus took care of IT ALL.
And yet you’ve been unable to provide a quote from Sacred Scripture to justify your belief. Now, as someone who does not believe in Sola Scriptura, that does not particularly bother me. But I can cite texts in support of Purgatory. Further, I’ve pointed out the distinction between “forgiveness of sins” and “purification of our souls” inherent even to the Scripture quotes you’ve provided.

With respect, so far the most you’ve been able to manage is to assert that Our Lord “took care of IT ALL”… but it looks to me like you’re not able to validate that belief based on Scripture. Indeed, it looks like you’re following a man-made tradition.
Did I post Genesis 3:15 ? What does it mean to you? (I can’t do all the work here!)
And, for reasons of space, I cannot necessarily reply to every single thing you say as I want all the entirety of my reply contained in a single post.
Genesis is the book that speaks to the beginning of the sin nature. What does God say He (God, but Jesus doing the action) will do to satan? What did satan release in the Garden of Eden? Hint. The initials are S.N.
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
– Genesis 3:15 (DRA)

I’m not really sure how that relates to sin nature.
We have a sin nature. When God created everything, somehow that sin nature got in the mix. He told Adam not to eat of the fruit, but He left Adam with the freedom to choose whether or not to eat it. So, if you think of it, purgatory is unjust because God gave us the CHOICE to obey Him or not, gave us Jesus to forgive our sins, but then sends us to purgatory because we used that choice mechanism He gave us. Does this sound right to you??
Considering that our free will is damaged by our fallen nature, it stands to reason that it would need to be purified. I find Purgatory to be so flawlessly logical as to be unassailable.
Now, it would require some more questions because I’d have to know for sure what you mean by:
“cleansed” of our sin nature. It never disappears. We are transformed
Romans 12:2
I mean what I said. We have a fallen, sinful nature. That fallen, sinful nature must go away before we can enter Heaven.

Again, my question to you is when exactly are we separated from our sinful nature?
Romans 5:1-2 speaks to how we have peace with God and are justified by faith. It speaks to His grace. It’s His grace we’re depending on. It speaks to how we STAND in this grace. Why would this grace cover sins and not the S.N. ?
Because your thesis (to the limited extent you’ve explained it) appears to be that man is cleansed from his sin nature at the very moment he places a saving faith in Our Lord.

I’m not sure if we’re talking past each other (in spite of how clear I’ve been in didactically explaining these concepts) so I will try once again.

Right now we all have a tendency to commit transgressions. This is called sin nature. Or fallen nature, if you prefer. This is why people do things they shouldn’t even when they know they shouldn’t do them.

Sacred Scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. No, this mortal must put on immortality. This corruptible must put on incorruptible. In effect, we must have our sin nature separated from our souls before we can enter heaven.

The Church teaches that one purpose of Purgatory is purifying our soul from our sinful nature as a necessary precondition to entering Heaven.

The reason I don’t think you’ve completely tracked this out is because you’re saying our souls are purified of our sin nature at the instant we place faith in Our Lord. If you were right about that, no true Christian could commit a sin ever again once he puts faith in Our Lord… because our fallen nature (as per your theory) has been taken away.

To help you in this, there isn’t a single Protestant teacher or theologian anywhere in the world (as far as I know) who teaches or believes that our sin nature is taken away at any point during our lifetimes. It’s tough to say for certain, of course, because there is no single standard of orthodoxy by which Protestants must abide. However, if a Protestant teacher of any stature ever said anything that extreme, I’d like to think I would’ve heard about it by now.
The original question was:
“Is it your position that clergy disagree with established Church teachings?”
Yes.
Thank you for providing a straight answer. That’s off topic for this thread but feel free to create a separate thread if you’re interested in that discussion.
 
Your opinion on Purgatory?
My opinion –

… Does not hold the power of changing the reality of it.

… Is based upon what I have learned of it - and that is rather incomplete knowledge.

… Affirms its existence but also the temporary nature of it. That is … those who think
that it does not exist … will one day be right (even if they aren’t presently). Purgatory as defined by the Church is not eternal – but for the time of purification (of the saved).

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/073-its-a-good-life3-300x222.jpg

Billy Mumy as the seemingly all-powerful 6 year old Anthony “You done real good Anthony, REAL good!” Fremont in the 1961 “Twilight Zone” episode “It’s a Good Life”. < Later reprised in Twilight Zone the movie.

IF “my opinion” had the power to wish something into the cornfield – or oblivion – Purgatory is not what I’d start with (or ever get to). 😃

I mean :sad_yes:

youtube.com/watch?v=AkJcFGvNgcY < Scenes from “It’s a Good Life”, in “The Twilight Zone” series
 
We are discussing it. By discussing Purgatory, we discuss our fallen nature as Purgatory can purify us from our tendency toward sin.

Those precise words? No. But the effects of Purgatory are quite aptly described in 1 Corinthians 3.
Well then why are you looking for precise words saying that the sin nature is taken care of?
As I have explained (repeatedly at this point), there is a distinction to be drawn between forgiveness of transgressions/sins (achieved through Our Lord’s sacrificial death on the cross) and the process whereby man is cleansed from his nature toward sin (possibly achieved through Purgatory).
Jesus did it all for me and for you - even though you don’t recognize this fact. Jesus needs no further help. He’s GOD, He’s the one who willingly died for you to get you to heaven - you cannot get there on your own, not because of your sins and not because of your sin nature. HE took care of it all. This discourse of ours will come to an end. You may wish to reread the N.T. keeping in mind THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS.
And yet you’ve been unable to provide a quote from Sacred Scripture to justify your belief. Now, as someone who does not believe in Sola Scriptura, that does not particularly bother me. But I can cite texts in support of Purgatory. Further, I’ve pointed out the distinction between “forgiveness of sins” and “purification of our souls” inherent even to the Scripture quotes you’ve provided.
With respect, so far the most you’ve been able to manage is to assert that Our Lord “took care of IT ALL”… but it looks to me like you’re not able to validate that belief based on Scripture. Indeed, it looks like you’re following a man-made tradition.
I posted a lot of scripture Colorsblend. Let’s put it this way:
To those who believe
No proof is necessary
To those who don’t believe
No amount of proof is enough
And, for reasons of space, I cannot necessarily reply to every single thing you say as I want all the entirety of my reply contained in a single post.
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
– Genesis 3:15 (DRA)
I’m not really sure how that relates to sin nature.
You could think on it. This back and forth can’t go on forever.
It has to do with what Jesus was going to do. It was ONE WORK, NOT TWO. You want Jesus to have completed TWO works, one for sin and one for the sin nature.
GOD PLANNED ONE WORK.
it’s so plain, I won’t even get into it. One tends to believe what one has been taught. The RCC is very good at getting this into one’s head. You should pull back and study a bit. OR you could keep believing in purgatory - either way you’re going to heaven, so Brother, this hill ain’t worth fighting for.

ONE
 
TWO Colorsblend
Considering that our free will is damaged by our fallen nature, it stands to reason that it would need to be purified. I find Purgatory to be so flawlessly logical as to be unassailable.
I mean what I said. We have a fallen, sinful nature. That fallen, sinful nature must go away before we can enter Heaven.
Again, my question to you is when exactly are we separated from our sinful nature?
Because your thesis (to the limited extent you’ve explained it) appears to be that man is cleansed from his sin nature at the very moment he places a saving faith in Our Lord.
I’m not sure if we’re talking past each other (in spite of how clear I’ve been in didactically explaining these concepts) so I will try once again.
Right now we all have a tendency to commit transgressions. This is called sin nature. Or fallen nature, if you prefer. This is why people do things they shouldn’t even when they know they shouldn’t do them.
Sacred Scripture says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. No, this mortal must put on immortality. This corruptible must put on incorruptible. In effect, we must have our sin nature separated from our souls before we can enter heaven.
The Church teaches that one purpose of Purgatory is purifying our soul from our sinful nature as a necessary precondition to entering Heaven.
The reason I don’t think you’ve completely tracked this out is because you’re saying our souls are purified of our sin nature at the instant we place faith in Our Lord. If you were right about that, no true Christian could commit a sin ever again once he puts faith in Our Lord… because our fallen nature (as per your theory) has been taken away.
To help you in this, there isn’t a single Protestant teacher or theologian anywhere in the world (as far as I know) who teaches or believes that our sin nature is taken away at any point during our lifetimes. It’s tough to say for certain, of course, because there is no single standard of orthodoxy by which Protestants must abide. However, if a Protestant teacher of any stature ever said anything that extreme, I’d like to think I would’ve heard about it by now.
I’d have to go back and read what I said. You’re right that the sin nature does not die even when we become saved. I was speaking to WHEN it would be taken care of, and that would happen WHEN you come to believe - at this time ALL your sins, sin, transgressions, failings ,etc. ARE TAKEN CARE OF. But you still have them.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:13.15
if you study this ON YOUR OWN, you would find that it’s NOT speaking about a place of purging but about how OUR WORKS will be judged. Works of Gold, Silver - Fire shows the value because these do not burn. Wood, hay and straw are worth less because they can be burned (NOT THE MAN)

This might help if you read it with an open mind:

It is not a literal fire, but a figurative fire that will try men. It is spoken of in Malachi 3:1-3;

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord (Yeshua), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith YHWH of hosts.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

Mal 3:3 And he (Yeshua) shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver (by using a figurative fire of tribulation, affliction, chastening, etc): and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto YHWH an offering in righteousness.

The “work” in 1 Co 3:13 is not material things like buildings, etc., but things such as greed, love, idolatry, walking in the Spirit, etc.
Thank you for providing a straight answer. That’s off topic for this thread but feel free to create a separate thread if you’re interested in that discussion.
No need for a different thread. If you’re involved enough in church, you know I’m right.

FG
 
I once heard Mother Angelica say she would be happy to be in purgatory, as that would mean she’s going to heaven. I agree. I would also be happy to know I would eventually be in heaven.

I just tend to think about heaven and God,rather than purgatory and God. I guess it’s just habit.
That’s kind of my view.
 
That’s kind of my view.
Adamhovey,
I cannot be on this thread forever, but you’ve hit on one of the reasons I’m still here.

Purgatory is one of the worst dogma in the RCC.
Precisely because it makes you CONCENTRATE on SIN.

I taught catechism in the RCC. I was already “born again” at the time although I didn’t know that term so I tended to teach my kids about the love of Jesus and how they should keep their eyes on Him and I also taught about sin/confesson, heaven, purgatory, hell and sacraments and everything else. Have you ever had this experience? I ask because if you have, you would know that all the concentration is on sin and confession and ending up in purgatory - which children are very afraid of BTW -

This does not reinforce the knowledge of the Love that God has for these children and for us. it does not show them HOW to NOT sin. It teaches them to depend on the church instead of on God and the church is non-existent, in the sense that it will not be there to offer help, learning, or guidance. In fact, most kids, by the time they’r 13 years old, have abandoned the church. I believe Pope Frances is trying to change this attitude of sin and punishment and we’ll see what happens this year.

FG
BTW Your religion is not getting you to heaven - Jesus is.
 
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