Your Opinion on Socialism

[melbanglican]

Here’s some things to note;

1. Having some socialism does not instantly make your country a socialist one. A purely socialist society can’t work, but neither can a country with no socialism at all.
2. All Marxists are socialists, but not are socialists are Marxists.
3. Many who identify as socialists actually are not completely socialist

Socialized programs actually do work. Do you really want the fire department and police privatized? They’re controlled by the government. The government also pays for the highways you drive on when you go to work. We have also been given public education, probably the greatest thing modern government has ever done. I’ve seen a lot of people on this forum say we need to end things like medicare and welfare because it’s socialism and people will just be charitable if government is not involved. However, this Utopian world is just a fantasy. If it was reality, there would never have been a need for government to get involved in welfare and medical expenses

HOORAY! At last, some simple common sense from North of the Border! Most of the people who participate in this forum who live in Europe, Australasia or Canada have lived under governments run by Social-Democratic or socialist parties. I doubt very much that any of them have been ‘oppressed’ on religious or any other grounds. I’m almost always appalled by the ignorance of Americans on the subject of socialism.

The USA actually had a long and proud history of left-wing activity that produced real benefits that Americans enjoy today. Trades unions were tiny, weak and almost entirely ineffective until Socialists and Communists took on the arduous, and often dangerous, work of forming industrial trades unions in the 1930s and 1940s.

Likewise, the most significant and dangerous work in the earliest civil rights cases in the South was handled by the Communist Party of the USA (Scottsboro Boys et al), not by the NAACP. Ironically, perhaps, it was the CPUSA who initially stood up for American justice for African-Americans in the South, for example in Alabama, Georgia and Mississipi. Two works on this period that might inform are ‘Hammer and Hoe’ (Robin D G Kelley) and ‘The Narrative Hosea Hunter’ (Nell Irvin Painter). CP union organisers went to places that others wouldn’t dare go, and even got into lethal ‘shooting matches’ with sheriff’s deputies in Alabama in 1931 (Camp Hill and Reeltown).

Socialist (Eugene Debs) and Communist candidates for the Presidency also did surprisingly well in elections before 1940. It is estimated (I’ve forgotten the source) that approximately 1,000,000 Americans may have passed through the ranks of the CPUSA between 1932 and 1945. Most of them were brave people committed to legal, social and economic justice for all Americans. That is why they joined - ‘The Party’ was doing something about the Depression while others seemed to be twiddling their thumbs!

Much of the work done by communist and socialists during the period before the War was done in collaboration with people in mainstream political parties and with churches and clergy.

The demise of the CP occurred as a result of the cynical manoeuverings of an alcoholic, hysteria-mongering politician from Wisconsin, and the refusal of the leadership of Party to become ‘Americanised’. The CP remained rigidly aligned with the Comintern (aka Moscow) and refused to adapt to peculiarly American circumstances. When it did so, people walked away in droves.

I urge the Americans in this forum to go and look at their own history, and respond less hysterically to the word ‘socialism’. You may find that there’s something in it for you, and that there’s an echo of the actions and words of Our Lord and the earliest church in much of it.

Peace be with you

 

[bevsue]

Some great thoughts here. I think the main thing to keep in mind is there is no ideal answer economically or socially for any society this side of heaven. We are, after all, a fallen race - unfortunately obvious in every human arena. Thanks for the further definitions of socialism which I think were helpful.

As far as economic systems go, I personally get frustrated when folks seem to think that capitalism and Christianity are practically the same thing. Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad to be living in the USA, I feel very blessed and and am grateful for it, and I love my country. But it isn’t the kingdom of heaven. All economic systems have their down-side. Each type can enable some weakness or less than honorable side of humanity just because we are imperfect. That’s true of capitalism as well as socialism. I don’t think acknowledging that is unpatriotic, it’s just honest. Capitalism can create an environment that encourages people to give freely as individuals or groups to help their fellowman, but it also allows the freedom to become wealthy and then chose to be selfish with that wealth. Some people think recognizing that is disloyal, but I think it’s just a statement of the human condition.

 

[SalesianSDB]

I do think socialism is evil. Freedom and free will are great gifts given to us and socialism interferes with it.

I personally don’t think we have capitalism in the U.S.A. What we have is corporatism. The government helps and aids Wall Street and big companies. Legislation empowers the big businesses and corporations we have now. A true capitalistic economy wouldn’t have laws favoring industries, Wall Street, or corporations. And both major political parties are guilty of it. There are libertarians and libertarian candidates want full on capitalism, which critics say would help Wall Street and corporations. But here’s the problem with that logic, if that was the case, libertarian candidates would be leading the polls and be getting money from these corporations. But they aren’t. Because these companies know what those candidates want is capitalism, not crony corporatism, which is the system we have now.

 

[CMatt25]

Here’s some things to note;

1. Having some socialism does not instantly make your country a socialist one. A purely socialist society can’t work, but neither can a country with no socialism at all.
2. All Marxists are socialists, but not are socialists are Marxists.
3. Many who identify as socialists actually are not completely socialist

Socialized programs actually do work. Do you really want the fire department and police privatized? They’re controlled by the government. The government also pays for the highways you drive on when you go to work. We have also been given public education, probably the greatest thing modern government has ever done. I’ve seen a lot of people on this forum say we need to end things like medicare and welfare because it’s socialism and people will just be charitable if government is not involved. However, this Utopian world is just a fantasy. If it was reality, there would never have been a need for government to get involved in welfare and medical expenses

Gift from God!

 

[davidmlamb]

On a closing note, when our Lord offers the wealthy man the opportunity to become an Apostle, he tells the man to sell all that he has, and follow. The Lord does not demand that the man surrender all that he has, and hand it over to Him, that it may be distributed for the common good. He allows the man to choose the path taken. Socialism, regardless of the form of government administering it, offers no such choice.

Nonesense! The richman did not ask to be an apostle but to be part of the Kingdom of God. Jesus said that in order for him to be part of the Kingdom of God he had to sell off all his wealth and then follow Christ. Yes Jesus gave him a choice, the choice was heaven or hell and the man chose his wealth at the expense of his soul! Hence it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle then it is a richman into heaven. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? In contrast, you have the choice not to pay your taxes, you can choose jail instead.

Peace,

David

 

[davidmlamb]

HOORAY! At last, some simple common sense from North of the Border! Most of the people who participate in this forum who live in Europe, Australasia or Canada have lived under governments run by Social-Democratic or socialist parties. I doubt very much that any of them have been ‘oppressed’ on religious or any other grounds. I’m almost always appalled by the ignorance of Americans on the subject of socialism.

The USA actually had a long and proud history of left-wing activity that produced real benefits that Americans enjoy today. Trades unions were tiny, weak and almost entirely ineffective until Socialists and Communists took on the arduous, and often dangerous, work of forming industrial trades unions in the 1930s and 1940s.

Likewise, the most significant and dangerous work in the earliest civil rights cases in the South was handled by the Communist Party of the USA (Scottsboro Boys et al), not by the NAACP. Ironically, perhaps, it was the CPUSA who initially stood up for American justice for African-Americans in the South, for example in Alabama, Georgia and Mississipi. Two works on this period that might inform are ‘Hammer and Hoe’ (Robin D G Kelley) and ‘The Narrative Hosea Hunter’ (Nell Irvin Painter). CP union organisers went to places that others wouldn’t dare go, and even got into lethal ‘shooting matches’ with sheriff’s deputies in Alabama in 1931 (Camp Hill and Reeltown).

Socialist (Eugene Debs) and Communist candidates for the Presidency also did surprisingly well in elections before 1940. It is estimated (I’ve forgotten the source) that approximately 1,000,000 Americans may have passed through the ranks of the CPUSA between 1932 and 1945. Most of them were brave people committed to legal, social and economic justice for all Americans. That is why they joined - ‘The Party’ was doing something about the Depression while others seemed to be twiddling their thumbs!

Much of the work done by communist and socialists during the period before the War was done in collaboration with people in mainstream political parties and with churches and clergy.

The demise of the CP occurred as a result of the cynical manoeuverings of an alcoholic, hysteria-mongering politician from Wisconsin, and the refusal of the leadership of Party to become ‘Americanised’. The CP remained rigidly aligned with the Comintern (aka Moscow) and refused to adapt to peculiarly American circumstances. When it did so, people walked away in droves.

I urge the Americans in this forum to go and look at their own history, and respond less hysterically to the word ‘socialism’. You may find that there’s something in it for you, and that there’s an echo of the actions and words of Our Lord and the earliest church in much of it.

Peace be with you

Yeppers but Americans would never accept this even though it was the left wingers who have always brought justice to the oppressed in America. If Jesus and the Apostles were living today it would be the American right wingers who would have crucified them all.

Peace,
David

 

[ETEXAS]

Yeppers but Americans would never accept this even though it was the left wingers who have always brought justice to the oppressed in America. If Jesus and the Apostles were living today it would be the American right wingers who would have crucified them all.

Peace,
David

Right…typical…you Leftists are like Cur Dogs…who ungrateful at being given car rides decide to drive yourselves , funny you always wreck. In any event…there was actually a breed of Socialist I could admire on the strength of the beliefs…they would fight for it…you David…do not have the “stones” for all revolutions there is a counter-revolution…in a FULL Cultural Revolution you have hinted at…you leave out…it would be a WAR… Dave boy…I don’t think you play high stakes…would you fight /die, live, and carry out this. I think the first Counter-revolutionary you saw with a side-arm or rifle you would wet your pants. In the words of Doc Holiday :“Your no Huckleberry.” The stakes of Revolution and a wicked one at that are blood and soul…you lack the “House” minimum. Do enjoy your pipe fantasy of recreating America in your image … after all…WHAT did Our Founding Fathers know you do not? Ciao!

 

[ETEXAS]

Before anyone says I was harsh in my prior post! Allow me this! I did call Socialism evil. I called it putrid. I stand by it. However!!! I never called Socialists Christ Killers or said they would kill the Apostles today! Regardless of your position… He made it personal…

 

[Saburo]

Yeppers but Americans would never accept this even though it was the left wingers who have always brought justice to the oppressed in America. If Jesus and the Apostles were living today it would be the American right wingers who would have crucified them all.

What a deluded individual you are. The left has done more to bring oppression not just to America, but to the world than can be described without use of the most horrific language. I suppose you think the mass murder of approximately 100 million children and adults in the name of leftist ideology is not oppression. I suppose you think that approximately one million unborn murdered each year in America alone at the insistence of leftists is not oppression. I suppose you think stripping people of their freedom of conscience to disagree with homosexual marriage, punitive taxation, and a governmental preference for one race over another is not oppression. I suppose you think that stripping personal property from 49% of the population and transferring it to the 51% of the population who pay no income tax at all merely so leftist politicians can cling to power is not oppression.

In fact, it is the conservative, church-attending right who overwhelmingly gives to charity in America to assist the poor and always have. It is the conservative right who voted as a higher percentage of their seats in Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to deliver justice to oppressed minorities, even as Democrat and former Ku Klux Klansman Robert Byrd attempted to filibuster the vote and deny said justice. It is the right who seeks to unshackle all Americans from government oppression with its job-crushing regulation, burdensome taxation, and micro-management of every affair of our lives. We are the oppressed, whether we be rich or poor, black, white, or brown.

As for your repugnant accusation that it would be American right wingers alone who would crucify Christ and the Apostles today, you sound revealingly like the shrill left who more and more openly voice their hatred of the Jews long blamed for crucifying Christ when it was all of us who crucified him. It doesn’t surprise me you fail to recognize your own complicity with your smarmy self-righteousness steeped in its ignorance of history.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I for one embrace socialism, and I think that Christ was a pure socialist. (I know I’m going to get a lot of flack here)

I also think that the world government, when it finally happens, will be socialistic.

When did Jesus embrace GOVERNMENT in any of His teachings?

Never ceases to amaze me how Catholics rush to slit their own throats by rendering unto Caesar what is eternally God’s.

Every country that has outlawed Catholicism or in any way tried to supplant God with Caesar has steered itself into disaster: France, England, the Communist countries.

Why any Catholic would want this is beyond my comprehension.

In the main I agree with what Saburo has said here.

 

[JRKH]

Well I see that this thread is headed to h…e…double toothpicks in a hand basket.

There have been some good comments made.
“Gift of God’s” comments about the fact that every country does have some socialized ares is quite good and correct. Police, fire, prisons, military and roads are all socialized at least to some extent. These are all things that the public came together on and decided that all should share in the cost and reap the benefits. And to me, this is a key point - share cost and reap benefits…

The problem with socialization of things is that rarely, in the “federal programs” is the issue of cost to benefit truly and carefully examined. The issues, causes, effects, etc. become too disconnected. For instance, a group comes to The Capital and begins lobbying for some program to benefit the “underprivileged”…This group does not promote this with a reasoned “cost benefit analysis” but rather with an emotional cry to how many would benefit (but at what cost?)…
The politician, cannot really look at the long run if it will adversely effect his election…
Those who benefit clamor for it’s passage…
How it will be paid for is often lost in the debate because, at least in America and at the Federal level…they don’t have to have a balanced budget…
The upshot of this is that too many decisions are made on an emotional, and politically expedient level without due consideration of the long term cost.
This is not socialism but despotism by committee.

Compare this to how (again in the U.S.) Schools are often funded.
Here in Ohio, School funding, along with a lot of other local funding is tied to property taxes. Thus when something is needed, an issue is placed on the ballot stating specifically what it is for, and how much it will raise the property tax on your home.
During the run-up to election day, the papers will generally have an article stating that, "such and so local school is asking for a 1.1 mill levy for 3 years for building improvements. The levy would raise property taxes by approx $110 per $100,000. The article would of course detail to some extent the needed improvements needed or desired etc. Each person can, if they choose, go to School board meetings and ask questions etc. Then the entire community comes out and votes…
In this we see good, down to earth, community based, socialism. The community as a whole knows (if they choose to look) both the costs and the benefits of a given proposal. They debate it, and they vote on it.

This is why I maintain that socialism on a very small scale, local community or private institution, can work just fine. On a larger scale…NO. In the larger scale it just becomes too bulky and unwieldy to handle properly.

A friend of mine once said to me, "I want my local government to be as liberal as possible, and my state and federal government to be as conservative as possible. the older I get, the more I see the wisdom in that view.

Peace
James

 

[Robert_Sock]

When did Jesus embrace GOVERNMENT in any of His teachings?

Never ceases to amaze me how Catholics rush to slit their own throats by rendering unto Caesar what is eternally God’s.

Every country that has outlawed Catholicism or in any way tried to supplant God with Caesar has steered itself into disaster: France, England, the Communist countries.

Why any Catholic would want this is beyond my comprehension.

In the main I agree with what Saburo has said here.

Christ was a socialist in action. For example, telling his disciples to feed the poor and clothe the naked! Never did Christ expect a “profit” for His good works!

 

[davidmlamb]

Right…typical…you Leftists are like Cur Dogs…who ungrateful at being given car rides decide to drive yourselves , funny you always wreck. In any event…there was actually a breed of Socialist I could admire on the strength of the beliefs…they would fight for it…you David…do not have the “stones” for all revolutions there is a counter-revolution…in a FULL Cultural Revolution you have hinted at…you leave out…it would be a WAR… Dave boy…I don’t think you play high stakes…would you fight /die, live, and carry out this. I think the first Counter-revolutionary you saw with a side-arm or rifle you would wet your pants. In the words of Doc Holiday :“Your no Huckleberry.” The stakes of Revolution and a wicked one at that are blood and soul…you lack the “House” minimum. Do enjoy your pipe fantasy of recreating America in your image … after all…WHAT did Our Founding Fathers know you do not? Ciao!

Well I think that you have responded with a lot of psychobable here. I served in the military for 20 years including the first Gulf War and Central America. And I am currently an Engineer for the Department of the Navy and continue to fight for freedom (which cannot be confused with capitalism). So your assumption that I would not pick up a gun and fight for justice and freedom is moot.

America was at its greatest when there were strong unions and the wealthy were taxed up to 90% of their income. This was during the time of WWII up until the 1970’s. No one dared called America a socialist country then. At that time we used those tax dollars to build great infarastructures, interstate highways, damns and bridges and we put men on the moon, and supported unions for just wages and benefits. Those tax dollars produced the best public school system in the world. We were great then because in those days capitalism served the totality of our society. But capitalism has morphed into something evil that impedes freedom and justice. Unions have been busted up and replaced with low wage jobs with little or no benefits. Today retirees have good pensions and social security benefits because they had good jobs for 30 + years that provided them with good pensions.

But the next generation will retire in poverty because capitalism no longer serves everyone like it use too. And because Social Security and Medicare is being raided by the wealthy, these poor retirees may retire to homelesness and eminant death. My job as an American which I swore to defend when I joined the military was to protect the weak and vulnerable from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. I suggest you read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church starting with CCC 1897-1912, 2288, 2401 to 2436.

Jesus taught us *“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money (Matthew 6:24). * To serve God is to serve the common good of humanity (CCC 1897-1912). I serve the Lord, who do you serve?

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10Peace,
David

 

[Ridgerunner]

America was at its greatest when there were strong unions and the wealthy were taxed up to 90% of their income. This was during the time of WWII up until the 1970’s. No one dared called America a socialist country then. At that time we used those tax dollars to build great infarastructures, interstate highways, damns and bridges and we put men on the moon, and supported unions for just wages and benefits. Those tax dollars produced the best public school system in the world. We were great then because in those days capitalism served the totality of our society. But capitalism has morphed into something evil that impedes freedom and justice. Unions have been busted up and replaced with low wage jobs with little or no benefits. Today retirees have good pensions and social security benefits because they had good jobs for 30 + years that provided them with good pensions.

But the next generation will retire in poverty because capitalism no longer serves everyone like it use too. And because Social Security and Medicare is being raided by the wealthy, these poor retirees may retire to homelesness and eminant death. My job as an American which I swore to defend when I joined the military was to protect the weak and vulnerable from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. I suggest you read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church starting with CCC 1897-1912, 2288, 2401 to 2436.

Jesus taught us *“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money (Matthew 6:24). * To serve God is to serve the common good of humanity (CCC 1897-1912). I serve the Lord, who do you serve?

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10Peace,
David

It’s possible that unionism following WWII was responsible for a relative prosperity then, but it’s also possible (more so, in my opinion) that the fact that we were the only producing industrial country on earth at the time, accounts for it, to the extent it was real.

Almost nobody paid that 90% tax, and there were plenty of ways around it then, as there are for the very wealthy today.

It may be observed that the share of national income going to labor (including transfers NOT to work) versus capital almost never changes, and when it does, it does only by a percentage point or two. But it can also be observed that the share of national income going to income from work goes down in exact proportion to the degree to which transfer payments (entitlements) go up. Also, as entitlements go up, the birth rate goes down. As the birth rate goes down, the share of national income from work also goes down. The percentage of national income from work exactly parallels the abortion rate. In other words, abortions took a chunk out of the economy that is not replaced by governmental manipulation, and cannot be replaced by that method. What we have in this country is a significant, relative reduction in “human capital”, which has negatively affected both labor and “property capital”.

I think the old formulas for explaining differences in the performance of economies are outdated and outmoded.

 

[ETEXAS]

Well I think that you have responded with a lot of psychobable here. I served in the military for 20 years including the first Gulf War and Central America. And I am currently an Engineer for the Department of the Navy and continue to fight for freedom (which cannot be confused with capitalism). So your assumption that I would not pick up a gun and fight for justice and freedom is moot.

America was at its greatest when there were strong unions and the wealthy were taxed up to 90% of their income. This was during the time of WWII up until the 1970’s. No one dared called America a socialist country then. At that time we used those tax dollars to build great infarastructures, interstate highways, damns and bridges and we put men on the moon, and supported unions for just wages and benefits. Those tax dollars produced the best public school system in the world. We were great then because in those days capitalism served the totality of our society. But capitalism has morphed into something evil that impedes freedom and justice. Unions have been busted up and replaced with low wage jobs with little or no benefits. Today retirees have good pensions and social security benefits because they had good jobs for 30 + years that provided them with good pensions.

But the next generation will retire in poverty because capitalism no longer serves everyone like it use too. And because Social Security and Medicare is being raided by the wealthy, these poor retirees may retire to homelesness and eminant death. My job as an American which I swore to defend when I joined the military was to protect the weak and vulnerable from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC. I suggest you read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church starting with CCC 1897-1912, 2288, 2401 to 2436.

Jesus taught us *“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money (Matthew 6:24). * To serve God is to serve the common good of humanity (CCC 1897-1912). I serve the Lord, who do you serve?

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10Peace,
David

 

[ETEXAS]

Dave sweety!! I’m your Huckleberry : Pray to your Satan god we never do have revolution ! Pray you never face me on a “field” I am… Very well trained. Shoot fast and accurate! I would Never give this nation to pimps like you. No quarter . I and other like minded…uber-Right, will in Churchills words prevail…:By ANY means nesssary… Any no threat just an answer to your Castro fantasy

 

[Robert_Sock]

Dave sweety!! I’m your Huckleberry : Pray to your Satan god we never do have revolution ! Pray you never face me on a “field” I am… Very well trained. Shoot fast and accurate! I would Never give this nation to pimps like you. No quarter . I and other like minded…uber-Right, will in Churchills words prevail…:By ANY means nesssary… Any no threat just an answer to your Castro fantasy

Find strength in being HUMBLE!

 

[Pat_the_elder]

Dave sweety!! I’m your Huckleberry : Pray to your Satan god we never do have revolution ! Pray you never face me on a “field” I am… Very well trained. Shoot fast and accurate! I would Never give this nation to pimps like you. No quarter . I and other like minded…uber-Right, will in Churchills words prevail…:By ANY means nesssary… Any no threat just an answer to your Castro fantasy

'nuff said - a diatribe lke this would turn Genghis Khan socialist! my sig says it all

 

[Lui]

its not a good thing its evil and of satan

I’m not a socialist but I think this is over the top. What is Capitalism then?

If Jesus and the Apostles were living today it would be the American right wingers who would have crucified them all.

Lol, you’re probably right. I’m pretty sure conservative right-wingers wouldn’t become followers.

 

[ETEXAS]

Find strength in being HUMBLE!

Put a sock in it! Sanctimonious putz! Defend Castro JR! You both need a Thorazine Big Gulp. Dill weed… Humble my foot up your …