Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

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wabrams:
Depends on what study you read, and more importantly, the bias you have when you look at the data.
I have looked at the data – it is convincing.
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wabrams:
Smoke, definately not overweight, family members have had cancer and diabetes.
Well, let me say goodbye to you now. I may not get the chance when you find out you have something uncurable.
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wabrams:
No the system works, people get lazy and do not properly use the system.
Now there’s a sentence which refutes itself.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
The charity level of this discussion has definitively deteriorated from the thread subject to “each other.” Please self-edit for tone and content before clicking the “Submit” button. If the charity level does not improve, this thread will have to be locked. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
 
Ding. Ding. End of round.

Go to your corners. At the beginning of the next round, come out discussing the topic, not each other.
 
Hello PLAL,

When a murderer is killing children on a playground and a police officer kills the murderer to protect the children, are both acts of killing the same? I say no, one is an act of evil, the man murdering the children, and one is an act of love, the police officer killing the murderer.

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sence to you?

Please visit Throwing Stones
 
PLAL said:
Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

Basically I tell them neither one of these issues is any of their business. Why? Because they have lost credibility in any good-faith discussion on the Gospel of Life, which is something they showed neither any interest in nor any knowledge of in the first place. If I am feeling in a really good mood or particularly drowzy I say it’s a false analogy or a strawman which I will then --somewhat archly – not weigh into.

Like people have a right to be in a discussion. No they don’t. People earn their way into discussions by being informed and principaled.

Basically for me, there is the theory and the ideal. And there is the reality and the practical management of avowed murderers. As you may know, Canada has not had the death penalty for decades. I am used to it. It is hard for me to argue for anything else. When I was young I fell over onto the give-em-another-chance side. That was then. This is now.

Now I have seen things which truly lead me to believe that the only reason I am not dead and robbed is by virtue of the grace of God or brute-stupid luck or both.

Sitting with a neighbour who had been called into Estreat Court due to an administrative error, I saw that 99% of those whose bail had been called into estreat failed to show up for the estreat hearing. My neighbour was the only one who had signed bail and then rescinded it through legal channels! Everyone else skipped and let skip. So what do people think those who skipped are doing to make a living?

Regularly, we see sex offenders serve their time and then get released back into the community and then re-offend. I agree with Ophrah on this. Once gets life. The choice offered to Karla Homolka should have been between life served soft-time or life served hard-time. She should *never *have been offered the choice between life and 12 years. Now she’s out and arguing that she should be allowed to see her avowed murderer-boyfriend. And she has never admitted guilt to raping and murdering her sister and two other teenagers.

I think the distinctions between first degree and other forms of killing are clear enough during trial. I know the question is about the death penalty. But, for me, I just don’t even know where to start. Why make a big deal about the death penalty when everything else doesn’t work? If folks could get everything else in the penal system to work, then talk to me about the death penalty.

I think you have some things in the States which are good. Like in California, 3-strikes-u-r-out. And you have the whole constitutional tradition of the right-to-bear-arms which we don’t have. The whole thing up here is gentrified and three times removed from reality. Meanwhile real flesh-and-blood continues to be sacrificed over drug deals gone wrong or over just another turf war in the hood, where whole cities have now become the hood.

Sheesh a while back there was guy down the street called the Nose-biter. He just bit people’s noses off to show em who was the boss. What exactly is up with that? Praytell! Someone explain to me why the best course of action is mercy given the unlucky event of having to deal with such a person. :mad:
 
Here is some info:

Total Number of Death Row Inmates as of July 1, 2005: 3,415

deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=9&did=188

So here is the question/scenario. I take all 3400 of these people and put them out in a field with 200 soldiers with M-60’s pointing at the crowd. Which one of the pro death penalty people are willing to give the order to fire for Jesus? Does Christ want them dead? Does the Pope want them dead?

-D
 
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Darrel:
Here is some info:

Total Number of Death Row Inmates as of July 1, 2005: 3,415

deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=9&did=188

So here is the question/scenario. I take all 3400 of these people and put them out in a field with 200 soldiers with M-60’s pointing at the crowd. Which one of the pro death penalty people are willing to give the order to fire for Jesus? Does Christ want them dead? Does the Pope want them dead?

-D
That would not be a lawful execution – since many of them have appeals pending.

However, when their appeals are exhausted, the law should be carried out.
 
Ani Ibi:
Regularly, we see sex offenders serve their time and then get released back into the community and then re-offend. I agree with Ophrah on this. . :mad:
Well I’m outa here-once someone brings Ophra into a discussion you know the discussion has degenerated beyond redemption.
 
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estesbob:
Well I’m outa here-once someone brings Ophra into a discussion you know the discussion has degenerated beyond redemption.
I’m hip. But she’s the first one I have heard who put it that simply:

Once gets life.

So do you agree that once gets life? Or do you disagree?
 
vern humphrey:
I have looked at the data – it is convincing.
More like inconclusive.
vern humphrey:
Well, let me say goodbye to you now. I may not get the chance when you find out you have something uncurable.
Hey, don’t have health insurance.
vern humphrey:
Vern, do you try to tick people off or is it a side effect of you charming personality. :rolleyes:
 
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wabrams:
More like inconclusive.
Kind of like saying the data on the relationship between lung cancer and smoking is “inconclusive.”
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wabrams:
Hey, don’t have health insurance.
As I said, let me say goodbye now – might not have a chance when you finally collapse.
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wabrams:
Vern, do you try to tick people off or is it a side effect of you charming personality. :rolleyes:
When you shoot yourself in the foot like that, you give me opportunities I can’t resist.

Try it this way – remove the people, and what’s left of "the system?"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
One point to note, if we hold a person in prison, we become responsible for them. We have to take some action for their welfare; for instance, not let them drown in a flood. We are stuck making sure they receive a basic level of medical care which includes regular dental visits, checkups, eye exams, etc. We also need to be careful with solitary confinement; it does mess with a person’s head and the old system did drive some people crazy. The penal system is a very difficult topic to work with, so many dilemmas.
 
vern humphrey:
Kind of like saying the data on the relationship between lung cancer and smoking is “inconclusive.”
Illogical fallacy.
vern humphrey:
As I said, let me say goodbye now – might not have a chance when you finally collapse.
You almost sound chipper at the idea. Again, it’s hard to get a medical exam when you don’t have insurance.
vern humphrey:
When you shoot yourself in the foot like that, you give me opportunities I can’t resist.

Try it this way – remove the people, and what’s left of "the system?"http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
It’s more like this: you’re an employer who has a system that gets the job accomplished, though will a small margin of error, is overall successful. New employee comes in, doesn’t follow your system, doesn’t get any of his work done. So by your logic, the whole system is flawed.
 
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wabrams:
Illogical fallacy.
You need to take a course in logic – there is no “Illogical fallacy.” Fallacies have specific names.
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wabrams:
You almost sound chipper at the idea. Again, it’s hard to get a medical exam when you don’t have insurance.
The way I do it is look up the doctor’s number in the phone book, call his office and make an appointment. What’s so hard about that?
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wabrams:
It’s more like this: you’re an employer who has a system that gets the job accomplished, though will a small margin of error, is overall successful. New employee comes in, doesn’t follow your system, doesn’t get any of his work done. So by your logic, the whole system is flawed.
When it starts killing employees? You bet it is!!
 
PLAL said:
Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

They are redirecting you and putting you on the defensive. Don’t let them do it! Stick with the abortion topic as the death penalty is a separate issue.
 
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proudnifi:
One point to note, if we hold a person in prison, we become responsible for them. We have to take some action for their welfare; for instance, not let them drown in a flood. We are stuck making sure they receive a basic level of medical care which includes regular dental visits, checkups, eye exams, etc. We also need to be careful with solitary confinement; it does mess with a person’s head and the old system did drive some people crazy. The penal system is a very difficult topic to work with, so many dilemmas.
Unfortunately we have people who will cavalierly dismiss those responsibilities. Hard to provide a stone killer with medical attention? Just forget it!!
 
PLAL said:
Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

I am actually against the Death Penalty but the Pro-Aborts often attack Pro-Lifers by stating you cannot be 100% Pro-Life if you are for the Death Penalty. What is the best answer to give them??

Tell them that you are 100% prolife for the innocent only, not for the guilty. Then tell them to read the portion of the Bible I will quote in a minute.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the death penalty. The death penalty has been a Christian practice since the very beginning, and before that it was practiced by the Jews - at the direction of God. The death penalty is a matter of justice. We can forgive the person for committing the crime, yes, but there is still the matter of justice that must be enforced. Not only does it satisfy justice, but it is a very good deterant for more crime. If a person is considering committing a bad crime of which the death penalty is the punishment, he may re-consider his actions.

God is also in favor of the death penalty. If fact, He was exremely angry with the Jews for not putting a guilty person to death - even when the guilty person confessed and seemed to be sorry!

Our society has become so sentimental that we no longer punish crime as it should be punished. The bad guy is usually portrayed as a “victim”, and is treated as such. The iron rod is used on such “crimes” as prayer in school, while real criminals are often set free treated with kid gloves.

Let me quote the story I was referring to from the Old Testament. You may want to read the entire story for yourself.

"Israel hath sinned, and trangressed my covenant… Neither can Israel stand before his enemies… I will no more be with you, till you destroy him that is guilty of this wickedness…thou canst not stand before thy enemies, till he be destroyed out of thee that is defiled with this wickedness. … Whoever he be that shall be found guilty of this fact, he shall be burnt with fire with all his substance, because he hath transgressed the covenant of the Lord, and hath done wickedness in Israel… And Achan answered Josue, and said to him: Indeed I have sinned against the Lord God of Israel, and thus and thus I have done…. And all Israel stoned him: and all things that were his, were consumed with fire. And they gathered together upon him a great heap of stones, which remaineth to this day. And the wrath of the Lord was turned away from them. (Josue 7:11,12,13,15,20,25-26).

“And all Israel stoned him… And the wrath of the Lord was turned away from them.”

God demands justice for crimes. It is true that we are not to do this out of any personal hate or vengeance against the person for anything they have dont to us, but as a matter of justice. God is both merciful and He is also just. The sentimentalism of our day loves to talk about the goodness and mercy of God, but they ignore His justice. God’s justice is real and he demands justice for crime.
 
I am in prison ministry and do not believe in the death penalty…I’ve seen a lot and know some extraordinary things that have happened.
 
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aimee:
I am in prison ministry and do not believe in the death penalty…I’ve seen a lot and know some extraordinary things that have happened.
Can you share some of that please?

-D
 
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USMC:
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"Israel hath sinned, and trangressed my covenant… Neither can Israel stand before his enemies… I will no more be with you, till you destroy him that is guilty of this wickedness…thou canst not stand before thy enemies, till he be destroyed out of thee that is defiled with this wickedness. … Whoever he be that shall be found guilty of this fact, he shall be burnt with fire with all his substance, because he hath transgressed the covenant of the Lord, and hath done wickedness in Israel… And Achan answered Josue, and said to him: Indeed I have sinned against the Lord God of Israel, and thus and thus I have done…. And all Israel stoned him: and all things that were his, were consumed with fire. And they gathered together upon him a great heap of stones, which remaineth to this day. And the wrath of the Lord was turned away from them. (Josue 7:11,12,13,15,20,25-26).

“And all Israel stoned him… And the wrath of the Lord was turned away from them.”

God demands justice for crimes. It is true that we are not to do this out of any personal hate or vengeance against the person for anything they have dont to us, but as a matter of justice. God is both merciful and He is also just. The sentimentalism of our day loves to talk about the goodness and mercy of God, but they ignore His justice. God’s justice is real and he demands justice for crime.
You quote the old covenant as if Christ never said let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone. Do you think it is weak for people to be against the death penalty? It is very tough for me to follow the teaching of the Church on this matter. On some human levels I would like to see every one of these people dead. It is wrong to do so, it is stronger in this issue to have mercy and let them live out the rest of their lives.

-D
 
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