Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

[st_ignatius110]

Actually, “many” is an overstatement. Even celebrated cases, like the Rosenbergs, whose innocence was protested for generations were finally shown to be truly guilty.

Regardless, even one is to many.

However, we do need a better justice system. Look at it like this – death penalty cases are the best justice we have. By that, I mean that persons facing the death penalty have safeguards – both during and after trial – that “ordinary” criminals do not have. So if we sentence one innocent man to death, how many innocent men go to prison for lesser crimes?

Agreed. I firmly beleive there are many who are in prison and are innocent.

It is no fix to say, “Well, we just won’t execute anybody.” That still leaves innocent men in prison – and not just those who would have been executed, but those convicted of drug dealing, car stealing, check kiting, and so on. All of those innocent people suffer horribly.

You are right…it is no fix to say we won’t execute anyone and then not do anything to change the system. But, if we do not execute anyone, then those who are innocent may be able to appeal their cases and the truth found out. If we execute all, and even one “slips through the cracks” then this is horrible and I say none should be executed.

I would feel a lot better if those who oppose the death penalty at all costs were pursuing justice reform with the same passion they reserve for a tiny minority of convicts.

Again, it does not matter that this is a “tiny minority” of convicts. Regardless, a life is precious in the eyes of God. When one is innocent and put to death it is a crime.

And I would also feel better if they felt the same passion for the victims and their families, to include the potential victims of the men they want to get off death row.

I don’t think anyone here is saying to let these criminals go. What I have read here is “life in prison without parole.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

st_ignatius110:

Regardless, even one is to many.

One innocent man put to death is too many. But so is one innocent man raped and murdered by a prison gang. And so is one innocent child raped and murdered by someone who shouldn’t be out.

st_ignatius110:

Agreed. I firmly beleive there are many who are in prison and are innocent.

Then let us bend our efforts to fixing the justice system as a whole, and we will not have to worry about innocent men being convicted of capital crimes.

st_ignatius110:

You are right…it is no fix to say we won’t execute anyone and then not do anything to change the system. But, if we do not execute anyone, then those who are innocent may be able to appeal their cases and the truth found out. If we execute all, and even one “slips through the cracks” then this is horrible and I say none should be executed.

As long as the possibility exists that even one man may be wrongfully convicted in a capital, there is a much stronger possibility that many men will be convicted in lesser cases.

So as long as we fear executing an innocent man, our system of justice is not just.

st_ignatius110:

Again, it does not matter that this is a “tiny minority” of convicts. Regardless, a life is precious in the eyes of God. When one is innocent and put to death it is a crime.

More lives are lost through such things as AIDS from homosexual rape in prison, or monsters who should have been dealt with praying on the innocent.

One of our problems in this country is the victims have no faces. In the recent case of Natalie Holloway, who disappeared in Aruba, some people have rightfully asked, “What if she had been Black, instead of a White blonde? And poor instead of rich? Would anybody except her family know about her?”

When we take up the case of a convicted killer, how many of us also carru a picture of te victims – as they looked when they were discovered.

As I said – in this country, victims have no faces.

st_ignatius110:

I don’t think anyone here is saying to let these criminals go. What I have read here is “life in prison without parole.”

Many people have been killed by men sentenced to life without parole. The attitude seems to be, “Sure they may get out and kill someone. But I’m willing to take that risk.”

As I said, no person opposed to the death penalty has voluteed to care for the Tommy Silversteins and similar monsters in prison – the attitude is, “Sure they may kill another guard. But I’m willing to take that risk.”

 

[pnewton]

st_ignatius110:

I will also say that I am against the death penalty. One of the factors that contributes to this is that it has been proven there have been many sentenced and put to death who were innocent of the crime.

Based on this arguement, it should be equalbly acceptable to assure that any evidence that could point toward evidence is given fair hearing.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

There is an old Abbot and Costello comedy routine where Abbot urges Costello to do something dangerous.

It strikes me that a lot of people who oppose the death penalty at all costs have cast themselves in the role of Abbot, and the potential victims in the role of Costello.

I respect your support of the Death Penalty.I was pro death penatly until started voulunteering at a crisis preganancy center. I came to believe that all LIFE was sacred and all life was the provence of God.

All I ask is that you show the same respect for my views that i do for yours… Please dont question my motives or imply I am neive.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

pnewton:

Based on this arguement, it should be equalbly acceptable to assure that any evidence that could point toward evidence is given fair hearing.

The way I understand it, and I could be wrong, only the process can be reviewed; new facts cannot be entered into the equation.

Can someone explain this to me? This seems to be just plain unreasonable.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

I respect your support of the Death Penalty.I was pro death penatly until started voulunteering at a crisis preganancy center. I came to believe that all LIFE was sacred and all life was the provence of God.

All I ask is that you show the same respect for my views that i do for yours… Please dont question my motives or imply I am neive.

I neither question your motives nor think you are nieve. I merely point out that we focus on the criminal as if he were the victim – we forget both his past victims and his potential future victims.

Inherent in the right to life is the right to self-defense. The execution of a duly-convicted hienous criminal is an act of collective self-defense.

 

[wabrams]

Ani Ibi:

The way I understand it, and I could be wrong, only the process can be reviewed; new facts cannot be entered into the equation.

Can someone explain this to me? This seems to be just plain unreasonable.

Evidence presented at the trial, and the way the case was handled, are what is reviewed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

The way I understand it, and I could be wrong, only the process can be reviewed; new facts cannot be entered into the equation.

Can someone explain this to me? This seems to be just plain unreasonable.

New evidence can indeed be presented. In Arkansas, there are three matters for appeal:

1. Process – which encompasses a huge range of possibilities.
2. Outcome – there is a limited period where a convict can say his conviction or sentence was unjust – regardless of process or evidence.
3. New evidence.

In some states there is a time limit on new evidence. That is indeed unjust.

 

[pnewton]

vern humphrey:

In some states there is a time limit on new evidence. That is indeed unjust.

I can see the need for some constraint, lest new evidence be deliberately withheld in order to trickle in new evidence.

 

[vern_humphrey]

pnewton:

I can see the need for some constraint, lest new evidence be deliberately withheld in order to trickle in new evidence.

True – and at the time these laws were passed, there was no inkling that future science would be able to take things like stained cloth and make positive identification of the person whose body fluids stained it.

There are also some other things we should look at. For example, there has never been a scientific study to prove fingerprint evidence yields unique identification.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

I neither question your motives nor think you are nieve. I merely point out that we focus on the criminal as if he were the victim – we forget both his past victims and his potential future victims.

Inherent in the right to life is the right to self-defense. The execution of a duly-convicted hienous criminal is an act of collective self-defense.

Believe me i dont think he is a victim at all-he is a vile criminal that deserves to spend the rest of his life behind bars. However I dont like the message exectuing them gives-killing somene is evil so to punish you for that evil we are going to kill you.

I will admit that part of the problem with opposing the death penalty is it puts you in bed withpeople you would just as soon not associate with. I think they hurt the cause. I can remember when they executed Gary Graham in Texas-we had Bianca Jagger and Jesse jackson and a host of other celebrities there preening for the camera’s and making imapassioned sppechs. A week later they executed a Mexiacn national who had killed a drug dealer in a drug deal gone bad. There were very few of us there protesting his exectution. I was wonderng where Jagger , Jackson et al were that night-but then threre were no camera’s there.

Like I said i respect your opinion on the death penalty-unlike those who are pro abortion I think there are legitimate and thought provoking resaons for supporting the death penalty. I just cant go there anymore.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

Believe me i dont think he is a victim at all-he is a vile criminal that deserves to spend the rest of his life behind bars. However I dont like the message exectuing them gives-killing somene is evil so to punish you for that evil we are going to kill you.

People are tried, sentenced, and executed on a case-by-case basis, not to send a message.

Would you say, “What kind of a message does it send if you kill someone who is attacking you with an ax?”

I would reply, “I’m not trying to send a message. I’m trying to save my life and the lives of my family.”

estesbob:

I will admit that part of the problem with opposing the death penalty is it puts you in bed withpeople you would just as soon not associate with. I think they hurt the cause. I can remember when they executed Gary Graham in Texas-we had Bianca Jagger and Jesse jackson and a host of other celebrities there preening for the camera’s and making imapassioned sppechs. A week later they executed a Mexiacn national who had killed a drug dealer in a drug deal gone bad. There were very few of us there protesting his exectution. I was wonderng where Jagger , Jackson et al were that night-but then threre were no camera’s there.

Like I said i respect your opinion on the death penalty-unlike those who are pro abortion I think there are legitimate and thought provoking resaons for supporting the death penalty. I just cant go there anymore.

And I respect your opinion.

 

[st_ignatius110]

One innocent man put to death is too many. But so is one innocent man raped and murdered by a prison gang. And so is one innocent child raped and murdered by someone who shouldn’t be out.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by st_ignatius110
Agreed. I firmly beleive there are many who are in prison and are innocent.

Then let us bend our efforts to fixing the justice system as a whole, and we will not have to worry about innocent men being convicted of capital crimes.

Agreed. What to do in the meantime with those who are innocent?Should they continue being put to death just so the majority of guilty are put to death? I am not sure at all our system will be changed for the better. It is filled with crooks and those who do not care about human diginity. Please note, I am not saying everyone who works in the system are crooked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by st_ignatius110
You are right…it is no fix to say we won’t execute anyone and then not do anything to change the system. But, if we do not execute anyone, then those who are innocent may be able to appeal their cases and the truth found out. If we execute all, and even one “slips through the cracks” then this is horrible and I say none should be executed.

As long as the possibility exists that even one man may be wrongfully convicted in a capital, there is a much stronger possibility that many men will be convicted in lesser cases.

So as long as we fear executing an innocent man, our system of justice is not just.

Quote:
Originally Posted by st_ignatius110
Again, it does not matter that this is a “tiny minority” of convicts. Regardless, a life is precious in the eyes of God. When one is innocent and put to death it is a crime.

More lives are lost through such things as AIDS from homosexual rape in prison, or monsters who should have been dealt with praying on the innocent.

One of our problems in this country is the victims have no faces. In the recent case of Natalie Holloway, who disappeared in Aruba, some people have rightfully asked, “What if she had been Black, instead of a White blonde? And poor instead of rich? Would anybody except her family know about her?”

When we take up the case of a convicted killer, how many of us also carru a picture of te victims – as they looked when they were discovered.

As I said – in this country, victims have no faces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by st_ignatius110
I don’t think anyone here is saying to let these criminals go. What I have read here is “life in prison without parole.”

Many people have been killed by men sentenced to life without parole. The attitude seems to be, “Sure they may get out and kill someone. But I’m willing to take that risk.”

I am not sure the number of convicted inmates that get out and murder a person are that large…but that does not negate the fact that each human life is precious…including those who are the murderers. Do you think you should take the advice you have been giving those of us against the death penalty and try to reform the system so these men do not escape?

As I said, no person opposed to the death penalty has voluteed to care for the Tommy Silversteins and similar monsters in prison – the attitude is, “Sure they may kill another guard. But I’m willing to take that risk.”

And you, who I am guessing are for the death penalty, has not volunteered either. You too are responsible for witnessing to this man if you will lay this in our laps. As Christians, we are all called to care for and pray for and witness to even the worst of criminals. Look at John Paul the Great. He witnessed to a hardened man who tried to murder him…and would have been successful if not for our Mother. How did John Paul view each and every human person? Through the eyes of Jesus Christ. He did not see us, he saw Jesus…and therefore he treated us all with equal human diginity no matter how heinous the crime.

Also, you keep bringing up one man…have you thought of the fac that we have MANY crooked guards? The things I heard when volunteering in prisons were anything but nice. The guards turn there back as men and women alike get raped, drugs are sold etc. Why not work on reforming the prison system so things like this are much rarer? Why use the attitude the more hardened criminals should be killed off?

 

[vern_humphrey]

st_ignatius110:

Agreed. What to do in the meantime with those who are innocent?Should they continue being put to death just so the majority of guilty are put to death? I am not sure at all our system will be changed for the better. It is filled with crooks and those who do not care about human diginity. Please note, I am not saying everyone who works in the system are crooked.

The first thing to do is determine who is innocent. Allowing DNA tests in many cases will go a long way toward doing that.

st_ignatius110:

I am not sure the number of convicted inmates that get out and murder a person are that large…but that does not negate the fact that each human life is precious…including those who are the murderers. Do you think you should take the advice you have been giving those of us against the death penalty and try to reform the system so these men do not escape?

We should reform the system by:

• Revamping the trial system to prevent convicting the innocent
• Targeting violent offenders – most murderers have a history of violence.
• Ensuring that those who commit serious crimes receive serious sentences.
• Holding prosecutors and judges responsible for results.

st_ignatius110:

And you, who I am guessing are for the death penalty, has not volunteered either.

I’ve limited my services to running for congress, making direct personal contact with the Governor and Lieutenant Governor, and serving as Policy Coordinator for our current candidate for Congress and filling a similar role for two State Representatives and one State Senator. So far.

st_ignatius110:

You too are responsible for witnessing to this man if you will lay this in our laps. As Christians, we are all called to care for and pray for and witness to even the worst of criminals.

That’s the old “everybody is responsible, so nobody is responsible” ploy.

Many a time an opponent of the death penalty has challenged those on the other side, asking, “Could you throw the switch?”

Now when the corolary challenge is offered, “Will you guard the dangerous prisoners?” it isn’t fair anymore.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

st_ignatius110:

Look at John Paul the Great. He witnessed to a hardened man who tried to murder him…and would have been successful if not for our Mother. How did John Paul view each and every human person? Through the eyes of Jesus Christ. He did not see us, he saw Jesus…and therefore he treated us all with equal human diginity no matter how heinous the crime.

It’s one thing to forgive someone who has harmed you personally, another to have responsibility for protecting others.

st_ignatius110:

Also, you keep bringing up one man…have you thought of the fac that we have MANY crooked guards? The things I heard when volunteering in prisons were anything but nice. The guards turn there back as men and women alike get raped, drugs are sold etc. Why not work on reforming the prison system so things like this are much rarer?

Perhaps you should bring this up to those who say, “Lock them up forever.”

st_ignatius110:

Why use the attitude the more hardened criminals should be killed off?

And did I say that? In those words?

 

[Forest-Pine]

Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

"That is why I am against the death penalty! Because I value life in every person. How can you defend the guilty and convicted on the basis of the value of life while yourself condemning the innocent to death?"

 

[vern_humphrey]

Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

"That is why I am against the death penalty! Because I value life in every person. How can you defend the guilty and convicted on the basis of the value of life while yourself condemning the innocent to death?"

And if I could stop abortion by ending the death penalty, I’d do it. I’d guard the most dangerous prisoners.

Unfortunately, ending the death penalty will not end abortion.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

And if I could stop abortion by ending the death penalty, I’d do it. I’d guard the most dangerous prisoners.

Unfortunately, ending the death penalty will not end abortion.

No-but it would advance the cause of establishing a culture of life in this country. And that ultimatley would help end abortion.

 

[pnewton]

estesbob:

No-but it would advance the cause of establishing a culture of life in this country. And that ultimatley would help end abortion.

That is one of the best things that could come from ending the death penalty. I think that the two do not even fit on the same scale, though. We have 50 a year vs. hundreds of thousands. We have the most vile, evil people vs. the most innocent.

Is it the culture of life we sould promote (I would hope) or a culture which decries personla responsibility. Looking at many death penalty opponents who are pro-abortion, I fear it is the latter.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

No-but it would advance the cause of establishing a culture of life in this country. And that ultimatley would help end abortion.

If what you say is true, then we could look at those nations which have abolished the death penalty, and find that they have no abortion.

Unfortunately, not only do they have abortion, some of them (for example, the Netherlands) also have legal euthanasia.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

If what you say is true, then we could look at those nations which have abolished the death penalty, and find that they have no abortion.

Unfortunately, not only do they have abortion, some of them (for example, the Netherlands) also have legal euthanasia.

Unfortuantley in most European countires the culture of death is firmly entrenched. i hope and pray that is not the case here.