Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

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vern humphrey:
If what you say is true, then we could look at those nations which have abolished the death penalty, and find that they have no abortion.
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Good point, VH. Canada abolished the death penalties decades ago, yet we have abortion up to the yinyangs. Dr Morgentaler is cruising for the Order of Canada in fact.
 
Ani Ibi:
Good point, VH. Canada abolished the death penalties decades ago, yet we have abortion up to the yinyangs. Dr Morgentaler is cruising for the Order of Canada in fact.
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The idea of presenting a serial killer with the Order of Canada to show he’s the best and most prolific serial killer boggles the mind!
 
Hello PLAL,

Jesus is the ultimate in pro life against abortion and Jesus is the ultimate in backing the Church use of Spiritual death as a detterant.

Please visit Throwing Stones

AnathemaIn passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.”

He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​
**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”
 
The death penalty is pro-life. Society says we value life so much, that if you murder someone, you must pay the ultimate punishment.
 
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Angainor:
The death penalty is pro-life. Society says we value life so much, that if you murder someone, you must pay the ultimate punishment.
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You’re absolutely right.
 
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Angainor:
The death penalty is pro-life. Society says we value life so much, that if you murder someone, you must pay the ultimate punishment.
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So society says some life is not so valuable?
 
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estesbob:
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me:
The death penalty is
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pro-life. Society says we value life so much, that if you murder someone, you must pay the ultimate punishment.
So society says some life is not so valuable?
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I’d say the life of the murdered is at least as valuable as the life of the murderer, if not more so.
 
I think the problems comes when the pacifists distort peoples undertanding of God to fit the image of the false god they have created. The pacifists have created a false god who opposes capital punishment.

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."
 
Steven Merten:
I think the problems comes when the pacifists distort peoples undertanding of God to fit the image of the false god they have created. The pacifists have created a false god who opposes capital punishment.

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."
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So I disagree with you on the death penalty and that makes me a pacifist and proves I have created a false god? Such utter, utter nonsense. When one start to confront such pompous and arrogant replies in a thread one knows the thread has run its course.
 
Steven Merten:
I think the problems comes when the pacifists distort peoples undertanding of God to fit the image of the false god they have created. The pacifists have created a false god who opposes capital punishment.

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made."
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It also says in th Bible how much a slave is worth and that homicide investigations should end in the slaughter of an animal to God. You suggest we do those things as well?
 
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Prodigal_Son:
If those judicial actions are taken by the Church, then yes, you ought to oppose them.

But the Church respects civil authority. Civil authority can punish crimes how it pleases. But, from a Catholic viewpoint, if the civil authority trespasses on the God-given right of a person to life, the civil authority is wrong. I’m not saying I have to vote on the basis of that wrong (I happen to think abortion is much *more * wrong). But the Catholic position is to oppose the death penalty.

You can disagree with the Roman Church, but you ought to acknowledge what the Church teaches.
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I know I’m jumping in here late, but what you are saying is totally contradictory. Vern was showing you how, following your logic you should oppose ALL forms of punishment towards others. This is because of the quote you so haphazardly took out of context, saying that Jesus meant not to punish others because we are all sinners. That is not what Jesus meant. You say it right when you claim that the civil government has the duty to punish criminals for the protection of others. I agree justice is God’s, but if the civil government is the one who executes the criminals for the purpose of protecting society, how can you condemn that?
 
In God’s covenant with Noah we read: “If anyone sheds the blood of another, his blood shall also be shed, for man is made in the image and likeness of God.” Who will challenge God concerning the death penalty?
 
There’s one simple fix for this dilemma. QUIT BEING A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES. Simple as that. Life is life is life. I don’t understand how conservative religious fundemtnalist people can be pure pro-life, but would support a death penalty.

I can tell you why, because they want to take the money saved in prisons, and put it into the military or “defense”. That way we can send more of our honorable soldiers to their deaths so that we can colonize more countries in the middle east.
 
All the arguements in favor of the death penalty remind me of the arguements pro-aborts use. One arguement was that by allowing abortion we could eliminate poverty. Rather than addressing the causes of poverty they found it easier to eliminate the poor. Likewise, death penalty proponents want to eliminate evil by eliminating the evil doer.
We will never be able to eliminate poverty or evil but that doesn’t mean we give up those effected by them.
“I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live…” Ezekiel 33:11
Perhaps we should only execute those who have repented, hopefully that would convince people that their conversion was authentic, however, it would not say much for us as a society. If we execute those who have not repented we have participated in sending a soul to hell all in the name of justice. You might say, “Wait just a minute, I am not the one who committed the crime.”
You would be correct, however, you are the one who determined what the punishment would be.
I always thought being pro-life meant to respect all life, even the most wretched.
 
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christy:
I always thought being pro-life meant to respect all life, even the most wretched.
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Are you suggesting that life imprisonment is better? If you do imprison murderers for life and then they murder again while in prison, what do you tell the second victim’s family? Do you think there are means in prison by which reoffending is prevented? I am up here in Canada and do not yet have a strong pov either way. But certainly death penalty advocates raise ponderous questions.
 
I tend to sway back and forth on this issue although I lean towards being against the death penalty.

Those for the death penalty bring up the following example – what are your thoughts??
Why can’t someone hold the postion 100% prolife for the innocent only, not for the guilty??

Let me give you this example: When a murderer is killing children on a playground and a police officer kills the murderer to protect the children, are both acts of killing the same? I say no, one is an act of evil, the man murdering the children, and one is an act of love, the police officer killing the murderer.

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sense to you?
In closing, we know that of the thousands of innocent children put to death by the act of abortion daily in the USA, not one of them has ever been accused of a crime, had a trial with a jury or been sentenced by a judge. Yet we have a law that permits their execution.

In fact, Abortion & Capital Punishment are not the same at all. IN fact if one truly loves life, one could not condone allowing a mass murderer to be available for the purpose of perhaps killing again! There are cases where capital punishment is needed.
 
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PLAL:
Why can’t someone hold the postion 100% prolife for the innocent only, not for the guilty??

Let me give you this example: When a murderer is killing children on a playground and a police officer kills the murderer to protect the children, are both acts of killing the same? I say no, one is an act of evil, the man murdering the children, and one is an act of love, the police officer killing the murderer.

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sense to you?
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Yes. Society has a duty to defend the innocent, and this duty includes defending them with all necessary force, including deadly force.

The right to self-defense is inherent in the right to life. Execution of a duly-convicted heinous criminal is an act of collective self-defense.

It’s a simple principle – protect the innocent, punish the guilty.
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PLAL:
In closing, we know that of the thousands of innocent children put to death by the act of abortion daily in the USA, not one of them has ever been accused of a crime, had a trial with a jury or been sentenced by a judge. Yet we have a law that permits their execution.

In fact, Abortion & Capital Punishment are not the same at all. **IN fact if one truly loves life, one could not condone allowing a mass murderer to be available for the purpose of perhaps killing again!**There are cases where capital punishment is needed.
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Who seeks to justify the killing of a living human being must meet the highest standard of justification. And that standard does not vary with the age, race, religion, condition or state of development of the victim.

Yes, we can justify the killing of the most dangerous criminals – but it takes years and iron-clad proof. That same standard must apply to the innocent.
 
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PLAL:
I tend to sway back and forth on this issue although I lean towards being against the death penalty.

Those for the death penalty bring up the following example – what are your thoughts??
Why can’t someone hold the postion 100% prolife for the innocent only, not for the guilty??

Let me give you this example: When a murderer is killing children on a playground and a police officer kills the murderer to protect the children, are both acts of killing the same? I say no, one is an act of evil, the man murdering the children, and one is an act of love, the police officer killing the murderer.

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sense to you?
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Another thought came to my mind – in regards to this statement…

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sense to you?

If the answer to this were true, then wouldn’t this legitimize a person killing an abortionist in order to protect the innocent unborn babies?? We all know killing an abortionist to protect the innocent babies is immoral and wrong. What are your thoughts??

Is it a prolife action to kill an intruder of your home at night who is a severe threat to your family? What about war?

Could killing someone ever be considered prolife??
 
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PLAL:
Another thought came to my mind – in regards to this statement…

A police officer, killing a murderer to protect the innocent, is a prolife action. Does this make sense to you?

If the answer to this were true, then wouldn’t this legitimize a person killing an abortionist in order to protect the innocent unborn babies?? We all know killing an abortionist to protect the innocent babies is immoral and wrong. What are your thoughts??

Is it a prolife action to kill an intruder of your home at night who is a severe threat to your family? What about war?

Could killing someone ever be considered prolife??
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Killing an abortionist would not meet the standards of self defense or defense of others – because you can’t show an immediate threat. In addition, of course, it would be both counter-productive and a lynch-like action.

Killing a person who is an immediate and direct threat to you or your family would indeed be pro-life. That would certainly include a home intruder at night.
 
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