Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

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vern humphrey:
Killing a person who is an immediate and direct threat to you or your family would indeed be pro-life. That would certainly include a home intruder at night.
Absolutely, the Church has always taught this. Not to do so would be to disobey the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Yes, you heard me right, even though it sounds ironic. This is the case because if you did not remove the deadly threat, then you would be partially guilty for your or the other person’s death because of your ignorance. The instant that an individual either makes an attempt to kill another human being or actually does kill another human being, they have forfeited their right to live.

If you’d like more info., read this article:

cathinsight.com/apologetics/capital.htm

The author is a sedevecantist goofball, but I totally agree with him on the issue of the death penalty.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Absolutely, the Church has always taught this. Not to do so would be to disobey the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Yes, you heard me right, even though it sounds ironic. This is the case because if you did not remove the deadly threat, then you would be partially guilty for your or the other person’s death because of your ignorance. The instant that an individual either makes an attempt to kill another human being or actually does kill another human being, they have forfeited their right to live.

If you’d like more info., read this article:

cathinsight.com/apologetics/capital.htm

The author is a sedevecantist goofball, but I totally agree with him on the issue of the death penalty.
It’s been posted before in this thread, but here’s the CCC’s take on this question:
[2263](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2263.htm’)😉 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65
[2264](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2264.htm’)😉 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66 [2265](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2265.htm’)😉 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
 
vern humphrey:
It’s been posted before in this thread, but here’s the CCC’s take on this question:
Sorry, I searched to see if anyone posted it yet and I couldn’t find it. Anyways, I know the CCC’s stance on it. There are two aspects to the CCC’s stance on capital punishment. First, it is doctrine that legitimate governments have the authority to take the life of a crime. The second aspect, however, is the pastoral one. This is *not * doctrine and therefore not binding on Catholics although it is most likely advisable! In this case however, the pastoral suggestion is that in today’s society capital punishment should be unnecessary. This is where I disagree.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Sorry, I searched to see if anyone posted it yet and I couldn’t find it. Anyways, I know the CCC’s stance on it. There are two aspects to the CCC’s stance on capital punishment. First, it is doctrine that legitimate governments have the authority to take the life of a crime. The second aspect, however, is the pastoral one. This is *not *doctrine and therefore not binding on Catholics although it is most likely advisable!
Then I will continue:
[2266](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2266.htm’)😉 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67
[2267](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2267.htm’)😉 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68
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JSmitty2005:
In this case however, the pastoral suggestion is that in today’s society capital punishment should be unnecessary. This is where I disagree.
The pastoral suggestion is based on an assumption of fact. If the facts are not as assumed, then the suggestion is not active.

If, for example, you have someone with multiple, consecutive life sentences in prison – and he kills another prisoner or a corrections officer – then you need something more than another meaningless life sentence to deal with him.
 
Wow, what a discussion… So much for getting any work done today!

It would seem that the discussion isn’t whether or not the church is for or against capital punishment since even John Paul’s statements say that it is allowed in very rare circumstances.

So I guess the question then becomes is it the ONLY way for us Americans given our current situation to deal with these criminals and protect society as a whole from them? And society has to include the other prisoners and the guards that may come in contact with this individual, does it not?

And I would comment that if someone is already serving one, two, three or even more life sentences in prison without the chance of parole, what deterant does more life sentences serve to this individual? What then becomes the lesser evil? Continue to do the best we can to incarcerate this person and hope they do not kill another inmate or guard? Lock them in perpetual solitary confinement and if they get sick and die or go crazy then that will have been a result of their own actions? Or execute them?

BTW, my answer… I don’t know but I will pray on it…

God Bless.
 
I am pro life 100% but i do believe in the death penalty. thats my response.
 
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JSmitty2005:
This is *not *doctrine and therefore not binding on Catholics although it is most likely advisable! In this case however, the pastoral suggestion is that in today’s society capital punishment should be unnecessary.
You exaggerate. “Very rare, if not practically nonexistent” is not the same as unnecessary.
 
I think you guys are misunderstanding me because of my wording, but just to clear things up, I am totally 100% for the death penalty.
 
PLAL said:
Your Response to Those Who State You Cannot Be 100% Pro-Life & For the Death Penalty?

I am actually against the Death Penalty but the Pro-Aborts often attack Pro-Lifers by stating you cannot be 100% Pro-Life if you are for the Death Penalty. What is the best answer to give them??

I know with abortion the unborn baby is always innocent. With Capital Punishment, the criminal has chosen to do severe wrong and pays for it through the Death Penalty.

I believe the Catholic Church has exceptions which make the Capital Punishment OK. How would you respond back to the Pro-Aborts??

I’ve decided to go back to the original question.
I would reply, I agree that some one can not be 100% Pro-life and be for the death penalty, just as a person can’t be 100% against the death penalty and be for the execution of innocent babies.

In addition, perhaps the Church making exceptions for Capital Punishment has inadvertantly led some to make exceptions for allowing some abortions.

For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.
 
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christy:
In addition, perhaps the Church making exceptions for Capital Punishment has inadvertantly led some to make exceptions for allowing some abortions.
The Church never made an exception for Capital Punishment. The Church has always taught that it is morally acceptable under certain circumstances because so does God. To claim otherwise would be contrary to the Church’s tradition. This is exactly what the liberals are trying to do - change the Church’s unchangeable doctrine on this issue.
 
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christy:
I’ve decided to go back to the original question.
I would reply, I agree that some one can not be 100% Pro-life and be for the death penalty, just as a person can’t be 100% against the death penalty and be for the execution of innocent babies.
The logic doesn’t work. You can be pro-life and still be in a position where you have to use deadly force to defend innocent life.

Similarly, people can be totally opposed to the death penalty and still support abortion on demand – I know several like that.
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christy:
In addition, perhaps the Church making exceptions for Capital Punishment has inadvertantly led some to make exceptions for allowing some abortions.

For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.
Is this another one of those arguments that it’s all the Church’s fault – like, “If the Church wasn’t opposed to contraception, there wouldn’t be so many abortions?”
 
Catholic Exchange ran a series during the academic year 2003-2004 (I can’t remember exactly when, but when I get time I’m going to try to track it down) that tried to set out the tradition of Catholic teaching on the death penalty. It showed that historically, the Church has seen four reasonings behind capital punishment, which, if I remember correctly, were protection of society, retributive justice, a goad to repentance, and a deterrent to crime. Those may not be correct, but I’m fairly certain of at least the first three.

Anyway, the question on JPII is not whether he strays from tradition in affirming or rejecting the legitimacy of the death penalty - he himself said there’s no possible way he could call it illegitimate. The questionable part of his teaching is that he reduces those traditional four justifications to only one - not merely saying that one reason is paramount, but actually employing only one reason, i.e. the protection of society. This is novel and it remains to be seen whether this will become a genuine development of Catholic thought. As it stands, the relevant portion of the CCC is the personal opinion of a solitary pope, the only such personal opinion to be placed among a body of thought otherwise firmly grounded in and cross-referenced with Scripture, councils, Fathers, and previous popes.

It still deserves to loom large, perhaps even largest, in a Catholic’s decision on the advisability of the death penalty, but that paragraph of the CCC cannot be considered the “Catholic” position as of yet.
 
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Darrel:
I have reversed my pro-death penalty position. The way I see it killing them does nothing to stop crime at all. Why not give them there life span to repent? Once they are dead the option dies with them. If the death penalty saved lives for real I would rethink the issue. If it’s about punishment, rotting in a cage is worse then death. Even if one in a million find God in prison thats a treasure. There really is nothing soft about a life sentence if you think about it.

-D
That is what i say!! Well said!! As such, me and my wife recently joined several anti death penalty momvements and fourms, and anti death penalty groups. Praise those people that serve a good cause!!
 
vern humphrey:
Yes. The world has a duty to defend the innocent, and this duty includes defending them with all necessary force, including deadly force, even if it means dneying that person a chance to repent.

The right to self-defense is inherent in the right to life. Revenge murdering of a duly-convicted heinous criminal is an act of collective self-defense.

It’s a simple principle – protect the innocent, punish the guilty.

Who seeks to justify the killing of a living human being must meet the highest standard of justification. And that standard does not vary with the age, race, religion, condition or state of development of the victim.

Yes, we can justify the killing of the most dangerous criminals – but it takes years and iron-clad proof. That same standard must apply to the innocent.
But in ending a person’s life, you also dney them a chance to repent, thus ensuring they go directly to Hell. Is that what all pepole want to do? Fix it so that they never get a chnce to enter the kingdom in a state of grace, but write them off as the biggest failures? I hate that and so does my wife.
 
Steven Merten:
I think the problems comes when the pacifists distort peoples undertanding of God to fit the image of the false god they have created. The pacifists have created a false god who opposes capital punishment.

**NAB GEN 9:6 **

"If anyone sheds the blood of man or woman, by man or woman shall his or her blood be shed; For in the image of God has man and woman been made."
That was in the old testament.
 
Steven Merten:
Hello PLAL,

Jesus is the ultimate in pro life against abortion and Jesus is the ultimate in backing the Church use of Spiritual death as a detterant.

Please visit Throwing Stones

AnathemaIn passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: “Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- him/herself and all his/her accomplices and all his /her abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him/her from the world of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him/her excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him/her condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his demons and all the reprobate, so long as he/she will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him/her to Satan to mortify his/her body, that his/her soul may be obliterated on the day of judgment.”

He/she who dares to despise our decision, let him/her be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he/she be damned with pure hatred and revenge at the coming of the Lord, may he/she have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man or woman has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of hell shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**NAB REV 1:16 **

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the evil.​
**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s and women’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his/her brother/sister shall be liable to judgement; any man/woman who uses abusive language toward his/her brother/sistershall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he/she holds him/her in contempt he/she risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he/she ignores them, refer it to the church . If he/she ignores even the church, then treat him/her as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”
Godh ates sinners?
 
Edit: Deleted the quote of the first initial post in this thread; refer to that if needs be.

Oh, Americans… The only “Civilised” people to allow the Death Penalty - You’d think, would you not, that even they, in their high status amongst the nations of this world, they would do it properly?

No. America has one of the worst records of the Death Penalty, as bad as a developing nation.

Racism, rejection of significant evidence, killing someone who has an IQ of 40 or less, killing the disabled and so on… (Did you know, that for a criminal to serve a (full) life sentence would be cheaper than butchering them? Or how about something called “Rehabilitation” - Also the fact that the Death Penalty has not been a deterrant to crime, rather, it has increased - America being the prime example, of course) and yes, we cannot forget the execution of children, either, can we? Well, America certainly has not.

Edit: I forgot to mention how fallible every method of the Death Penalty is, from hanging, to lethal injection. I read up on some cases, where one man was gassed, it took him twenty, excrusiating minutes, to die…

What I have read on the American Death Penalty makes America seem sick and evil - Any person, especially an American no offence, but it is the only, present, Industrialised nation to condone it, and even in such a bad, and publically un-educated way.

By supporting the American Death Penalty, you support, as I listed above, the execution of those who could not have possibly committed such acts and/or those who were not aware, or are too young to face such a sentencing etc… Which, as far as I can remember, the only other case of this was in Hitler’s Nazi Germany.

Pope John Paul II tried to change America’s view on the Death Penalty: “I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary… Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.”

The Pope even got the govenor of… Luisianna, I think? To “Forgive” a person given the Death Penalty, and reduce the sentencing.

Quoting America’s Bishops:
“We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty.”

Throughout my schooling, which as I’ve stated before, is fully Catholic, I have recieved nothing but anti-Death Penalty teachings, especially in my privately run Catholic Vincentien secondary school. Even more when I decided to delve into it myself, by taking a course offered by a University in Dublin, it brought up the Death Penalty: About eighty pages of shocking statistics on the American Death Penalty - I doubt that anyone could read that, look me in the eyes, and say: “Yes, I agree with the American Death Penalty.” - It is in many areas contradictory to Human Rights (Not to mention the basic right: The right to life, which we, as Catholics, so readily use against abortion).

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp
americancatholic.org/Messenger/Jan2002/feature3.asp

I fail to see any difference between the Death Penalty and Abortion and/or Euthinasia - I see it all as murder.

As you are “protecting/helping” society, and/or revenging the murder of one person, Euthinasia is “helping” one person, especially if they’re in pain etc… I honestly think America’s policy of literal life sentencing (I.e. Life in most other countries does not mean literal life, e.g. in Ireland it’s twenty to twenty five years. Longest I’ve heard, in another country, is thirty-five to forty) is more humain. As said above, it gives them the chance to repent, it is up to them to repent, not us, it is especially not up to us to take that right away from them, I would think that a horrid sin, denying someone else their chance to repent, and therefore, possible “Admission”, so to speak, into Heaven?

Murder and “The Death Penalty” are both conscious descisions to take life away, similar to abortion and euthinasia, cut it short, deny the possibility of repenting… Difference? The only thing it stops, is that persons life, and any subsequent crimes they could, or would have committed. It is barely a deterrent to others, if none at all (As crimes warrenting the death penalty: I.e. rape, murder etc… in America have risen over the past thirty years, while in other countries who do not allow the death penalty, it has either slowly risen, remained generally the same, fell slightly.)

I would submit the document I posses on the American Death Penalty, but it is, of course, as I said a document; physically, not on the computer, or internet. It would take me a long while to scan it in, not to mention re-write. Therefore, unfortunately, I will not submit it for the use of others, no matter how relivant - I just simply do not have the time.
 
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Zerith:
By supporting the American Death Penalty, you support, as I listed above, the execution of those who could not have possibly committed such acts and/or those who were not aware, or are too young to face such a sentencing etc… Which, as far as I can remember, the only other case of this was in Hitler’s Nazi Germany.
No, not true. A good Catholic can support the death penalty in America in its application permited by the Catholic Church and still not support the the cases you mention. Do not presume to tell people what they can think.
I fail to see any difference between the Death Penalty and Abortion and/or Euthinasia - I see it all as murder.
.
Then read what the Catechism says about the death penalty, then about abortion or euthanasia, and you will learn there is a difference in moral teaching on the subject.
 
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