Your Thoughts on Third Orders?

[Luigi_Daniele]

Let me say this one more time.

Secular Franciscans are NOT lay associates of the Franciscan Order. They are very different from other secular orders. They ARE a CANONICAL ORDER just like friars, monks and nuns. They are the first canonical order of secular people in the Church. Orders are normally for nuns, friars and monks, with this one exception.

They HAVE A RULE of their own, not our rule. We have our own rule. St. Francis wrote four rules with the intention of forming four communities: Friars, Nuns, Hermits and Secular.

They are not lay. They have both lay and clerics. The Third Order of St. Francis follows the same rule, the Rule of Penance. The First Order follows the Rule of Obedience. The Second Order follows the Rule of Poverty. Three rules for three orders. The Franciscan hermits follow the Rule for Hermits. Francis worked very hard to make them very distinct orders and to make them very autonomous, not at all associated with each other. In fact, there is a papal encyclical somewhere that states that the friars have no obligations to any of the other Franciscan orders nor the other way around. But our relationship with each other is fraternal and cooperative, because we share the same Father.

Please do not say that they are our associates. They are not and we don’t want them to be, nor do they want to be. Each Franciscan order is very autonomous. We make up one Franciscan family.

The Secular Franciscans do make a canonical liturgical and public solemn profession equivalent to that of the friars, nuns and sisters. They are offended when they are thought of as associates to the Franciscan Order.

The Secular Franciscans are to the Franciscan family what Chaldeans, Ukranians, Romans, Maronites and others are to the Catholic Church. They are a sui iuris order.

Here is the theology for the Profession In The Secular Franciscan Order explained by the Superior General of the Capuchin Franciscan Friars. Rev. Brother Felice, OFM, Cap.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother,

With all due respect, they no longer follow the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. They follow a new, 1970’s rule. They are BSP (online)-- their Rule bears absolutely no (or almost no) relation to the present Rule.

 

[JReducation]

Brother,

With all due respect, they no longer follow the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. They follow a new, 1970’s rule. They are BSP (online)-- their Rule bears absolutely no (or almost no) relation to the present Rule.

We have to be careful not to misunderstand here. It is true that around 1978, I believe, the Rule for the Brothers and Sisters of Penance (secular and regular) was rewritten by Pope Paul VI, but it remains the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. What do we mean by this? It means that this rule was written explicitly for them and was taken from the original rule written by St. Francis in 1223.

What Pope Paul VI did was to leave the original rule intact as a preface to the new rule. There was some confusion about this, because many thought that what Pope Paul had deleted and edited was the actual rule written by St. Francis. This was not the case. The part that he had rewritten and edited was an older addition to the rule by previous popes. Over the centuries different popes have added to the original rule written by Francis.

The original rule written by Francis is contained in the Letter to the Faithful, which has not been edited to this day. What was edited were the details on how to live this way of life. I’m not sure how many times that part has been edited. But I know that it’s not the first edition that has been done.

However, this does not change their status. In fact, the Vatican was very enphatic that this rule and the constitutions that followed in 2000 were specifically for the Secular Franciscans, were approved by the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. This rule was not to be confused with the Rule of the Friars Minor, the Rule of the Poor Sisters or the Rule for Hermmits. Nor is their constitution taken from the constitution of any of the other Franciscan branches.

The point that I’m making is that they are not associated with the Franciscan Order. They ARE are canonically estabished Franciscan Order with all the rights and duties that any order has in the Church, unlike other Third Orders in which the members are associated with the First Order and follow their Rule and spirituality. They are bound to their rule and their constitutions, thus establishing them as completely autonomous, not associated with any of the obediences of Franciscan friars. This is the point that I was trying to make in my second post.

There are some overlaps between the orders. The system of government is the same. The stages of formation are the same. The terminology is the same. We (friars) are governed by ministers, so are they. Our ministers are governed by a chatper, so are their ministers. Our general chapter answers only to the pope, so does their chapter. Once establish in a diocese we cannot be disbanded or asked to leave by any bishop, neither can they. They are an exempt Ponttifical Order not subject to the autority of any religious superior or bishop, just like the friars. They are subject to their own ministers alone.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ausculta]

Brother,

With all due respect, they no longer follow the Rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. They follow a new, 1970’s rule. They are BSP (online)-- their Rule bears absolutely no (or almost no) relation to the present Rule.

I believe you have misunderstood Br. JR. He is quite aware of the changes to our rule throughout the centuries. The present (1978) rule is the fourth manifestation of the rule; it follows spiritually and authoritatively from the original rule (1221, Memoriale Propositi).

The BSP are not associated with the SFO. They are a private association of the faithful that chooses to live the rule of 1221. The SFO is still the original Brothers and Sisters of Penance, but we follow the current rule as it is the one approved by the Holy See. We are still referred to as the Brothers of Sisters of Penance by the Holy See and other officials when we are addressed corporately in letters or official correspondence.

In Christ,

 

[JReducation]

I believe you have misunderstood Br. JR. He is quite aware of the changes to our rule throughout the centuries. The present (1978) rule is the fourth manifestation of the rule; it follows spiritually and authoritatively from the original rule (1221, Memoriale Propositi).

The BSP are not associated with the SFO. They are a private association of the faithful that chooses to live the rule of 1221. The SFO is still the original Brothers and Sisters of Penance, but we follow the current rule as it is the one approved by the Holy See. We are still referred to as the Brothers of Sisters of Penance by the Holy See and other officials when we are addressed corporately in letters or official correspondence.

In Christ,

This is correct, the Third Order Secular and the Third Order Regular are the only Order of Brothers and Sisters of Penance. To avoid confusion, the new translation refers to the secular brothers and sisters as Secular Franciscans. The national leadership in the USA inadvertently contributed to the confusion by insisting that the English speaking seculars refer to themselves as the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO).

This added to the confusion, because many people do not know that secular DOES NOT equal lay. Secular is a canonical term that designates any person who is not a consecrated person. Diocesan deacons, priests and bishops are also seculars. Pope Benedict XVI is a secular man. He is not a consecrated man. But he is not a layman. He is a cleric.

The Secular Order is for both lay and clerics who are not consecrated in a religious order. For example, I cannot be a Secular Franciscan. I’m a consecrated religious. Pope Benedict XVI can be a Secular Franciscan, because he does not belong to a religious order or religious congregation.

This further emphasises the distinctness of the Secular Franciscans. Church law does not allow anyone to join them who has made profession in an order or a congregation, because it is the mind of the Church that the profession made in the Secular Franciscan Order is in and of itself liturgical, public, binding until death and cannot be superceded by any other commitment. Even deacons, priests, bishops and popes who belong to the Secular Franciscans are bound to live the Franciscan way of life as defined in their rule and their constitution.

This does not take away from the holiness of Lay Dominicans or Secular Carmelites or Lay Missionaries of Charity or the Society of Brothers and Sisters of Penance. What it means is that the Secular Franciscan Order has a very distinct character, both canonical and historical.

The entire Franciscan family is very proud of their autonomy and their contribution to the history of the Church and to her mission. Therefore, we do not wish to distort the charism and personality of the Secular Franciscan Order by giving the impression that they are in any way our associates or some branch of our order. To a certain extent, to say this would be to diminish them. They have the unique honor of being the first real order for secular men and women to be canonically established in the Church. We want them to shine. If they are portrayed as our associates, they will not shine as they should. It can give the false impression that they receive their giftedness and Franciscan identity from us, which they do not. They receive it fully and directly from our common Holy Father Francis.

They are not our associates nor our subordinates. They are equal to us in all things including profession, rights, duties, and Franciscan succession. They are as Franciscan as I am, even though I’m a religious. Please treat them accordingly. They have done wonders for the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ausculta]

They may indeed waive them, but National still charges the local fraternity the same amount.

In older, poorer fraternities it is such a burden, that they have almost no funds left to “do” anything.

Again, I do not wish to come across as lecturing or condescending, I am just trying to be clear.

I think this is correct. I can’t verify it, but I can tell you what my fraternity is doing. We collect dues at each monthly meeting. We are asked to give what we can. No specific amount has ever been brought up, so I’m sure some give a lot and some a little depending on our own personal financial situations. If the $50 per member per year is an accurate norm, then it’s really not that bad. That only comes down to a little over $4 per month for each member. Being a part of a community requires certain obligations, including fees. It costs money to run an order: printing formation materials, newsletters, websites, supplies for meetings, retreats, missions, etc. etc.

Peace,

 

[franciscanhobbi]

if you mean Dominican Tertiaries, Secular Franciscans, Benedictine Oblates or other lay associates of religious orders, there is nothing that would prevent you from joining any of them. There are no membership fees, you don’t take vows, although you do make a commitment which is not binding under pain of sin as religious vows would be. You do not leave your secular job or vocation. YOu remain in the lay state, in your married or single life, in your career and so forth, and your association with the order is part of your spirituality. There is a sticky above on this topic which may give the specific information you need on the various lay associations, their similarities and differences.\

Neither for that matter is it too late to discern a religious or priestly vocation. Many dioceses and religious orders actually encourage and welcome late vocations.

You are right, they are not binding under pain of sin, except where it is already a sin as defined by the Church.
They are not in a STATE of perfection, canonically.
Peace to you,

 

[EvelynEVF]

Br. JR,

I am so grateful for your love of the SFO. I am fairly recently professed, and from a convert background, so some of the terminology is even more confusing for me than for a cradle Catholic. Your posts are always helpful and edifying.

As Br JR writes, SFOs are not “junior” Franciscans, or a group that comes alongside the friars and nuns to help them carry out their charism, however wonderful that may be. SFO is a “terminal vocation” the same way, say, an MBA is a terminal degree in business, even though somebody with PhD would have a “higher” degree. I hope that analogy isn’t too awful

I have been having loooong conversations with a friend who is currently a Benedictine oblate, whose monastery recently was closed. For the last couple years, she has been looking into the SFO off and on. It’s really neat to talk to her, and she takes it very seriously that this would be every bit as solemn and binding as becoming a nun or a sister.

I happen to be hanging out at the poverty line at the moment, and while my fraternity does have to cough up for all active members, I have never for a moment felt even the slightest bit of pressure to contribute. They didn’t even get me a set of envelopes.

 

[magdelaine1173]

The rest of us poor slugs who are also Franciscans follow the Rule of the Friars Minor, which was the first rule that Francis wrote for the first order that he founded. We come out of that tradition. We were all one community. But as it got bigger and bigger, it was subdivided according to ministries, customs and even national boundaries. We do not belong to the Third Order, nor do they belong to us. They have their own way of life and they are completely independent. They are not associated with us as described in canon law. They are our brothers and sisters, because we all belong to the same Franciscan family

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Wow, you ARE poor slugs! With so many generals and heads above you in positions of power, no wonder you are asking for more descernments of friars…thats a big group of people to minister to!
I must hand it to you Br. JR, you really do put in a full days work with todays religious orders. * I’m on my second mug and am still trying to wake up somewhat!! I’ve actually tried the roasts made by local religious orders and it is quite tasty. I hope you can keep things in order in your order!!
God Bless,
Magdelaine1173*

 

[Shoshana]

I will be asking admission in the Discalced Carmelite third order shortly. :thumbsup:My husband wants me to wait to see how my health will go as I may lose a kidney. That is why he had me quit my job last March-April. Please pray fo rme…

 

[JReducation]

I will be asking admission in the Discalced Carmelite third order shortly. :thumbsup:My husband wants me to wait to see how my health will go as I may lose a kidney. That is why he had me quit my job last March-April. Please pray fo rme…

It the Lord is calling you to the OCDS, go and don’t worry about your kidney. You may or may not lose it. But the goal in life is to do whatever he tells us. Remember the words of Mary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Wow, you ARE poor slugs! With so many generals and heads above you in positions of power, no wonder you are asking for more descernments of friars…thats a big group of people to minister to!
I must hand it to you Br. JR, you really do put in a full days work with todays religious orders. * I’m on my second mug and am still trying to wake up somewhat!! I’ve actually tried the roasts made by local religious orders and it is quite tasty. I hope you can keep things in order in your order!!
God Bless,
Magdelaine1173*

LOL, that’s funny. By the way, I don’t drink coffee. But I do like tea and biscuits.

I hope that I didn’t confuse anyone when I spoke about Generals. The General Ministers each govern their respective branch of the Franciscan family. Each of us responds to one General Minister, not to several.

The point that I was trying to make was that the Secular Franciscan Order is very different from other secular orders, not better, just different. To Franciscans, it has always been very important to remind people that the Secular Franciscans are 1) a real order, 2) have their own rule and government, 3) are not associated with the Franciscan friars at all, 4) they have produced great works and great saints for the Church, 5) their way of life is very unique.

That being said, there is one concern that I have about the American Secular Franciscans. They have allowed American thinking and American culture to permeate their way of life. Many religious orders did this and it has been catastrophic. Our rugged, independent and production oriented American mindset is very Protestant. When it is applied to a the Franciscan life, it creates havoc.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[puzzleannie]

You are right, they are not binding under pain of sin, except where it is already a sin as defined by the Church.
They are not in a STATE of perfection, canonically.
Peace to you,

I am not clear as to how this is a response to my post, but thank you. I am unaware that any lay associates, members of third orders or seculars ever considered that we wereunder a state of perfection canonically, and I don’t even know what that means.

Going back to OPs question, this discussion makes clear that you have to investigate the group in which you are interested. Each order has its own charisms, its own method of governance, its own Rule from which all this derives, including a rule for lay associates–a general term I realize is not precisely useful for all orders. The info on SFOs is particularly helpful, as it is important to understand that there are canonical implications for joining some of these groups, but not for others, and that there is for all of them a period of discernment and formation and membership is by invitation of the order not by demand of the candidate. Participation is a process of discernment like any other spiritual commitment, and should not be regarded as merely another group to join in order to participate in their prayers and apostolates, but as a commitment to one particular order for life. One does not become a Secular Franciscan one year, then decide to dabble in Dominican or Carmelite life the next year. We should not join or be invited to join until we are ready to make the commitment and live the life prescribed in the rule or guide for the way of life we as lay Catholics are ready to undertake.

There are I think past threads on each of the specific orders or associations related to the various religous orders on this form, and OP would be best served by exploring them. The SFOs, Carmelites and Benedictines have been particularly active but I think we have forum members in many of the others.

would any of those members care to list saints who have belonged to these 3rd orders? such as Frances of Rome considered one of the founding Benedictine Oblates, St. Catherine, a Dominican tertiary. Bro SFO? I know your list will be a good one. Also OP and others may wish to know in which of these groups laity are entitled to wear a prescribed habit. Benedictine Oblates do not that I know of.

 

[JReducation]

would any of those members care to list saints who have belonged to these 3rd orders? such as Frances of Rome considered one of the founding Benedictine Oblates, St. Catherine, a Dominican tertiary. **Bro SFO? **I know your list will be a good one. Also OP and others may wish to know in which of these groups laity are entitled to wear a prescribed habit. Benedictine Oblates do not that I know of.

LOL, I’m not an SFO, I’m an OSF. We’re different The OSF are all religious. The SFO are all seculars.

They do have a very impressive list of saints.

Franciscan saints and blesseds

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I will be asking admission in the Discalced Carmelite third order shortly. :thumbsup:My husband wants me to wait to see how my health will go as I may lose a kidney. That is why he had me quit my job last March-April. Please pray fo rme…

Prayers offered.

 

[DeniseOP]

I’m drawn to the Dominicans, but it’s not going to be possible for me to ever join them. I’m now entering my late 30’s, and working to pay off several graduate school degrees. I’m not drawn to the life of a Diocesan priest, and I left the discernment process a bit too late.

I’m wondering whether anyone has some comments on their or others’ experiences with being Third Order Dominicans? (Or other religious orders?) I’m not really sure I’m drawn that way but I’d be curious to hear other people’s experiences.

Hey Dret –

My friend in St Louis was just ordained a Dominican priest and he is in his late 30s–maybe 40ish. He was with another priest ordained the same time who has several graduate degrees. When I first encouraged him to join the Dominicans he was also worried about his college loans, etc. but God provided for him and he was able to pay them off in order to enter the seminary. Really! Check into it with some of the seminarians in your province and find out what they did to take care of the financial issues, especially those who have advanced degrees. (most of them do before they begin) I’m not sure what area you are from, but there 5 headquarters for the Dominican provinces in the US if you do a search. All of them have some version of a “check it out-come and see” retreat week or weekend where you can get information, and see if this is really the life that you are called to.

Now as far as “third orders” in the Dominicans is concerned, I’ve been a Lay Dominican since 2001. I skimmed over the other responses that you got and I can tell you this: you may begin the process of becoming a Dominican priest with a little encouragement and a little more research. You can be a 3rd Order priest as a diocesan priest in your own diocese. But why would you do that if you feel God is calling you to Community and Religious Life?

If you have something specific that you would like to know about Lay Dominicans – we are all part of the Dominican family and we don’t do the differentiations as much as we used to (first, second, third orders, but they are understood) – please contact me at deniseop3@yahoo.com.

God bless you and don’t give up! Everything is possible with God!
In His love and St Dominic –
Denise

 

[dret]

Denise, thanks for the information and the encouragement, I really appreciate it. I’m familiar with my local Dominicans, so who knows? But I have a lot of grad school dept to pay off yet so we’ll just have to see what happens. God bless!

 

[DeniseOP]

Well, remember – God is in charge, not you. If He wants you in seminary, ask Him to show you how to follow His will, and put the bills in His hands. Pray like it all depends on Him (and it does), and do your part like it all depends on you. He will honor your efforts and WILL find a way to take care of grad school. Don’t give up on what might seem to be an impossible task. ALL things are possible with God

 

[RevDrNorth]

I’m drawn to the Dominicans, but it’s not going to be possible for me to ever join them. I’m now entering my late 30’s, and working to pay off several graduate school degrees. I’m not drawn to the life of a Diocesan priest, and I left the discernment process a bit too late.

I’m wondering whether anyone has some comments on their or others’ experiences with being Third Order Dominicans? (Or other religious orders?) I’m not really sure I’m drawn that way but I’d be curious to hear other people’s experiences.

My understanding is that the Third Orders are a vocation and discernment is necessary. It is an avenue for people who are called to deepening their religious life within that particular community.

There are a number of Third Orders, including John Michael Talbot’s Brothers and Sisters of Charity.

littleportion.org/

Believe it or not there is also a United Methodist religious order called the Order of Saint Luke. It is a dispersed community of men and women, married and single, clergy and lay.
saint-luke.net/

There is a United Church of Christ Order called the Order of Corpus Christi. Also a dispersed community
orderofcorpuschristi.org/

Of course there are many Episcopal Orders and of these there are a number that have Third Orders or are dispersed communities. An example is the Brotherhood of Saint Gregory. gregorians.org/

The Order of Saint Luke above is UMC but open to people from other denominations. All of that to say, that there are many people that are attracted and called to some form of religious life (life in an order) but for one reason or another that does not entail leaving their secular occupations and living full time with the community. They live their vocations out in the world but connected to the community. The Catholic Church must be on to something in terms of spirituality and human need if groups such as the UMC and UCC have a religious order.

If you are called, it would be a wonderful and fulfilling path.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Your late 30’s are not too late to join most religious societies. Get your loans paid off, and at the same time, begin the discernment process with a Community of choice.

 

[JReducation]

My understanding is that the Third Orders are a vocation and discernment is necessary. It is an avenue for people who are called to deepening their religious life within that particular community.

There are a number of Third Orders, including John Michael Talbot’s Brothers and Sisters of Charity.

littleportion.org/

Believe it or not there is also a United Methodist religious order called the Order of Saint Luke. It is a dispersed community of men and women, married and single, clergy and lay.
saint-luke.net/

There is a United Church of Christ Order called the Order of Corpus Christi. Also a dispersed community
orderofcorpuschristi.org/

Of course there are many Episcopal Orders and of these there are a number that have Third Orders or are dispersed communities. An example is the Brotherhood of Saint Gregory. gregorians.org/

The Order of Saint Luke above is UMC but open to people from other denominations. All of that to say, that there are many people that are attracted and called to some form of religious life (life in an order) but for one reason or another that does not entail leaving their secular occupations and living full time with the community. They live their vocations out in the world but connected to the community. The Catholic Church must be on to something in terms of spirituality and human need if groups such as the UMC and UCC have a religious order.

If you are called, it would be a wonderful and fulfilling path.

One correction, the Brothers and Sisters of Charity are not a Third Order. They are a first order. They are their own religious family as are the Salesians, Redemptorists, Christian Brothers, Marianists and so forth.

People often confuse them with Franciscans and believe them to be part of the Franciscan family. They are not. They do not follow any of the rules of St. Francis. They have very carefully crafted statutes for them that borrow from: Franciscans, Benedictines and Carmelites.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF