Your views and feelings of poverty

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Yup. I’m not far from where you are. Same people. And those jars in the convenience stores and restaurants with the homemade signs that say “need help with medical bills” or “need help with mortgage payments” have the recipient’s names on them because they’re not ashamed to ask, and you know it’s legit, and they fill up fast because you know the people half the time, or at least the families they’re from. And you can’t tell who’s rich or poor, most of the time, just by looking. And where else do you see short-bred heifers or fattened steers or just-overhauled 1953 Chev pickups at church fund-raising sales?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Absolutely – right down to the jars on the counters in stores.

Our charity is direct – not through bureaucrats who skim off most of it before it reaches those who need help.

As I said in another post, we have a Catholic Charities Disaster Relief team, and we have a $10,000 block grant from Catholic Charities. We aren’t limited to declared disasters, we can respond to things like a house burning down.

And typically, we will hold a fish fry and raise between $1000 and $1200 for the family. We buy the fixin’s with money from the block grant – $300 to $400 – and give all the proceeds to the family. So we disburse $3 for every $1 in our grant.
 
Vern’s and my area might have another element that is worth thinking about, but which might not be applicable to other places. It’s interesting to think about.

Around here, intergenerational help is pervasive. Jim Bob and Betty Mae might not have a down payment for their first house, but Granny McCracken will loan it to them, even if it’s most of her “nest egg”. Childcare for working mothers is almost always in the hands of relatives. If Jim Bob blows the engine in his car, chances are his third cousin once removed knows how to replace it and knows where there is a pretty good engine. In the meanwhile, he can borrow his father-in-law’s “other” pickup to get to work. Absolutely everybody has a relative or friend who works at Tyson’s and has access to the company store. Everybody has a friend or relative with a freezer full of beef or pork or venison or chicken from Tyson’s or filleted bass caught at Table Rock or all of the above. Maybe two freezers. You can buy a “Country Flame” stove at the factory here. And you can cut all the wood you want to heat your house, for free. People around here tend to stay put, and that intergenerational help might be an important element in explaining why “poor” people around here don’t live the way many would think “poor” people would have to live.

Interesting to think about that. Population mobility has its benefits, to be sure. But it also has its downsides.
 
Vern’s and my area might have another element that is worth thinking about, but which might not be applicable to other places. It’s interesting to think about.

Around here, intergenerational help is pervasive. Jim Bob and Betty Mae might not have a down payment for their first house, but Granny McCracken will loan it to them, even if it’s most of her “nest egg”. Childcare for working mothers is almost always in the hands of relatives. If Jim Bob blows the engine in his car, chances are his third cousin once removed knows how to replace it and knows where there is a pretty good engine. In the meanwhile, he can borrow his father-in-law’s “other” pickup to get to work. Absolutely everybody has a relative or friend who works at Tyson’s and has access to the company store. Everybody has a friend or relative with a freezer full of beef or pork or venison or chicken from Tyson’s or filleted bass caught at Table Rock or all of the above. Maybe two freezers. You can buy a “Country Flame” stove at the factory here. And you can cut all the wood you want to heat your house, for free. People around here tend to stay put, and that intergenerational help might be an important element in explaining why “poor” people around here don’t live the way many would think “poor” people would have to live.

Interesting to think about that. Population mobility has its benefits, to be sure. But it also has its downsides.
Very, very well said. 👍 👍

My fellow West Coast residents have no clue, as they drive to Starbucks in their BMWs, sip their lattes and discuss the backward poor folk of the Ozarks who are “suffering” in poverty. Meanwhile, they barely know their neighbors and their friends will disappear if they come across hard times. To many of them, poverty means not being able to afford internet services. 😛

It’s kind of like the concept of camping. I like backwoods camping, though I haven’t done it in a while. My wife’s idea of “roughing it” is staying at a small hotel/motel instead of an Embassy Suites. 😃
 
Very, very well said. 👍 👍

My fellow West Coast residents have no clue, as they drive to Starbucks in their BMWs, sip their lattes and discuss the backward poor folk of the Ozarks who are “suffering” in poverty. Meanwhile, they barely know their neighbors and their friends will disappear if they come across hard times. To many of them, poverty means not being able to afford internet services. 😛

It’s kind of like the concept of camping. I like backwoods camping, though I haven’t done it in a while. My wife’s idea of “roughing it” is staying at a small hotel/motel instead of an Embassy Suites. 😃
It’s interesting, too, to consider the fact that a lot of the intergeneraltional or extended family stuff is tax free. My son in law’s postman raises hogs. I raise cattle, in addition to my “day job”. There is a local family-owned slaughterhouse, but the postman butchers the ones he and his family consume himself. I doubt the postman pays taxes on what he is paid for hogs. Nobody pays taxes on the beef I give people. People who heat their houses, wholly or partially with wood, pay no taxes on that portion of their “utility bill” if they cut their own. Betty Mae doesn’t pay her second cousin for childcare, so no taxes there. But neither does the cousin pay taxes on the 120 lb of leg quarters Jim Bob gives her, for which he paid six cents/pound at the company store, or the two cords of wood he cut for her to get her through the winter. Jim Bob’s cousin doesn’t get any money for replacing Jim Bob’s engine, but neither does Jim Bob or the cousin pay any taxes on the venison or filetted trout Jim Bob gives the cousin.

Given the amount the governments at all levels tax individual and corporate income and sales, people who exchange services gratuitously (no “quid pro quo” so it’s not even theoretically taxable) are getting massive discounts from “retail”. No sales tax at yard sales or estate auctions either.

Much of that is not really available to “urban poor”, and I don’t know how it could be. It costs employers a lot to employ people, and a lot of that is government-mandated. Sometimes I wonder whether the taxation level is a major producer of poverty.

Well, firecracker time. Have a nice Independence Day!
 
It’s interesting, too, to consider the fact that a lot of the intergeneraltional or extended family stuff is tax free. My son in law’s postman raises hogs. I raise cattle, in addition to my “day job”. There is a local family-owned slaughterhouse, but the postman butchers the ones he and his family consume himself. I doubt the postman pays taxes on what he is paid for hogs. Nobody pays taxes on the beef I give people. People who heat their houses, wholly or partially with wood, pay no taxes on that portion of their “utility bill” if they cut their own. Betty Mae doesn’t pay her second cousin for childcare, so no taxes there. But neither does the cousin pay taxes on the 120 lb of leg quarters Jim Bob gives her, for which he paid six cents/pound at the company store, or the two cords of wood he cut for her to get her through the winter. Jim Bob’s cousin doesn’t get any money for replacing Jim Bob’s engine, but neither does Jim Bob or the cousin pay any taxes on the venison or filetted trout Jim Bob gives the cousin.

Given the amount the governments at all levels tax individual and corporate income and sales, people who exchange services gratuitously (no “quid pro quo” so it’s not even theoretically taxable) are getting massive discounts from “retail”. No sales tax at yard sales or estate auctions either.

Much of that is not really available to “urban poor”, and I don’t know how it could be. It costs employers a lot to employ people, and a lot of that is government-mandated. Sometimes I wonder whether the taxation level is a major producer of poverty.

Well, firecracker time. Have a nice Independence Day!
What?! No taxes?? Y’all are criminals! 😉 😃 (And, just to clarify, that would be all y’all!)

I feel like dumping some tea in the Columbia river now in celebration.

Happy 4th and God Bless America!
 
What?! No taxes?? Y’all are criminals! 😉 😃 (And, just to clarify, that would be all y’all!)

I feel like dumping some tea in the Columbia river now in celebration.

Happy 4th and God Bless America!
And we pick blackberries and muscadines for free and make wine. 😛
 
Vern’s and my area might have another element that is worth thinking about, but which might not be applicable to other places. It’s interesting to think about.

Around here, intergenerational help is pervasive. Jim Bob and Betty Mae might not have a down payment for their first house, but Granny McCracken will loan it to them, even if it’s most of her “nest egg”. Childcare for working mothers is almost always in the hands of relatives. If Jim Bob blows the engine in his car, chances are his third cousin once removed knows how to replace it and knows where there is a pretty good engine. In the meanwhile, he can borrow his father-in-law’s “other” pickup to get to work. Absolutely everybody has a relative or friend who works at Tyson’s and has access to the company store. Everybody has a friend or relative with a freezer full of beef or pork or venison or chicken from Tyson’s or filleted bass caught at Table Rock or all of the above. Maybe two freezers. You can buy a “Country Flame” stove at the factory here. And you can cut all the wood you want to heat your house, for free. People around here tend to stay put, and that intergenerational help might be an important element in explaining why “poor” people around here don’t live the way many would think “poor” people would have to live.

Interesting to think about that. Population mobility has its benefits, to be sure. But it also has its downsides.
That is a very important resource to have, for both the young and the old - as I expect someone takes care of the old folks too. I know a lot of peolpe migrated from rural areas to cities in search of jobs during the depression and WWII and just never wen back. I know a lot of people out here in L.A. whose families are hundreds if not thousands of miles away. My family is in Kentucky and Tennessee, for example. My mom’s out here, she moved after my dad died. My husband’s family is in southern Indiana. It’s tough to be so far away when trouble hits. I can imagine for the truly poor it would be a disaster. The Hispanics here are really close when it comes to family. You’re lucky to be in an area that has the job availablity nearby that you generally find only in and around a big city. You get the best of both worlds that way. 🙂
 
Can you put this in English please? I am a development specialist and have worked around the world to alleviate poverty for forty years. Even I don’t understand what you are trying to say, and it may be good for others to have an understanding too.
It’s a standard right-wing talking point. It’s a straw-man argument that basically says that non-right-wingers believe that the economy is static in size (it doesn’t grow or shrink), thus a “zero-sum game.”

What is ignored by this argument is that wealth and poverty in a country like the United States is relative. What is ignored by right-wingers is the rich-poor gap (which is increasing) and that the middle class is slipping into poverty.
 
And that is mostly due to government:
  1. We bulldozed “slums” and “ghettos” in the name of Urban Renewal. Now we have classy neighborhoods and shopping areas where poor people once lived and worked. The poor people were concentrated in “housing projects” where neighborhood identity was lost, and where there are too many poor to find jobs in the local area.
Um…here in Los Angeles, this is being done by DEVELOPERS who are out to make a quick buck, not the city. Unfortunately, the city isn’t doing anything to stop it because of the property taxes that can be collected on the “improvements” that are usually reserved only for certain asian ethnic minorities (though, not officially – hint, I live in Koreatown).
 
The poor we will have with us always because it is a consequence of Original Sin, but that doesn’t get us off the hook. We are mandated by Christ to work to eliminate poverty and suffering wherever we see it. There are ways to accomplish this according to our state of life. One of the ways is charity. The other is social justice.

I tend to agree that many people give to charity because of guilt or pressure or laziness; it’s easier to do that than to correct some of the unjust systems that cause poverty in the first place. That’s why social justice also has a high place in the Church.

On a personal level we are simply called to love; to give food and drink, a hug and a smile to those who come within our breathing space. What we do for the least of our brothers, we do for Jesus. This is on the final exam.
 
What is ignored by this argument is that wealth and poverty in a country like the United States is relative. What is ignored by right-wingers is the rich-poor gap (which is increasing) and that the middle class is slipping into poverty.
The latter assertions must be relative too. Where I live, they’re anything but the case in any real sense. Sure, there is an increasing gap between those who have nothing but a house, a car and a modest 401K or a small independent business and the “super wealthy”; the Tyson’s, the Waltons, the O’Reilleys, etc. But that’s always going to be true if some people have more or less adequate means and some acquire excess wealth in an inflationary system. It doesn’t necessarily mean those on the bottom are any worse off, and in fact they might be much better off. That certainly is the case here. “Poor” people in my town own the houses that the middle and upper classes lived in half a century to a century ago, and they’re not run down either. The wealthier classes own considerably more than they did then, and relative to what the “poor” people have now. But that doesn’t mean the poor are worse off. They’re much better off.

Back when I was a kid, being “middle class” meant you owned the house you lived in, had a regular income, a car, a radio and enough money to buy a suit to go to church in on Sunday. You got to eat chicken for Sunday dinner. The “middle class” now is much more numerous and has a lot more stuff. Anybody who wants to can eat chicken every day of the week.

It seems likely to me that in a society in which disparities in wealth exist at all, there will inevitably be greater gaps between the “reallly wealthy”, the “sort of wealthy”, the “middle class”, the “sort of middle class” and, the “sort of poor” and the “pretty darn poor” whenever asset accumulation is reasonably possible, because the value of the asset accumulation of each is increasingly inflated over time. As each baseline moves, the gap widens. But it doesn’t mean any people in the chain are worse off.

The thing can be dynamic downward as well as upward. When I was a kid, a well to do man died and left his daughter a $100,000 trust fund. That was considered wealth then. Not long ago she came to me for a business matter, and, lo! her trust fund was worth $100,000; peanuts in today’s economy, because she had spent up the income all these years.

Having said all that, I think the greatest injustice being done now to people, particularly on the lower end of the spectrum, is the increasing difficulty in acquiring productive assets. I expect I’ll be called a right-winger for saying this, though I don’t consider myself a right winger (I just agree with the social encyclicals) but I think the government takes an inordinate (and increasing) amount of peoples’ labor at every level. It’s like the “corvees” of old where you had to work for the lord of the manor so many days out of the year. Right now, we’re very close to working half our lives for the “lords of the manor”. And there are a lot of hidden taxes too. Medicare and Medicaid get discounts (nothwithstanding that the profit margin for healthcare providers is around 40%; far greater than Exxon’s) There is no such thing as a “discount”, and certainly not in healthcare. It’s a subsidy paid by those who do not get discounts. It makes no difference if you are frugal and save your money to support yurself or if you’re profligate and expect someone else to support you bye and bye. You pay the “corvee” nearly the same, either way.

And, of course, in the near future we are promised that if, say, we manage to accumulate productive assets, we’re going to pay the same tax on that, or nearly so, as we would pay on wage labor.
That does not only affect the “wealthy”. That also affects the factory worker who buys a run down house and fixes it up with his own labor in the evenings and on weekends and resells it for a profit.

I’m no expert, but this resentment of wealth that is so popular right now gets under my skin in a big way. And I’m not a wealthy guy. I just want to accumulate some productive assets for my old age and for my family. For goodness sake, if people can’t accumulate productive assets without being taxed to death for it, I don’t see how the kind of family independence encouraged by Rerum Novarum and the other social encyclicals, can ever be achieved.

Sometimes it seems to me that we have two political parties, both of whom are intent on enriching themselves. The difference is that it doesn’t trouble one of them if others make some money on the way. The other one doesn’t seem to like it if we do.
 
You’re lucky to be in an area that has the job availablity nearby that you generally find only in and around a big city. You get the best of both worlds that way. 🙂
It might be luck, but I wonder. The headquarters of several of the nation’s most successful corporations are here, because they started here. But I also know that a number of highly successful businesses are here because they relocated here. Frankly, a big part of it is, I think, that the business environment is pretty friendly, there are no unions to speak of, and workers have every expectation of having to work hard and do what management tells them to do.

Industrial workers here, for example, do not make anything remotely like a GM worker in Detroit does. Nor do they have a union to speak for them. But they don’t fear layoffs either, and pretty much get as much overtime as they want. A lot of industries around here have 12 hour, three day work weeks for which one gets paid for forty hours, or ten hour four day work weeks. There are also 30 hour work week jobs. (No benefits with those, of course.) And there’s always less formal work like short-hour seasonal work or work that peaks on weekends. Only the illegals utilize that to work two jobs on a sustained basis, because they’re sending a lot of money back home. But lots of others, particularly younger workers, do it in short bursts to get something paid for, like a home down payment or equipment to do custom farming in the evenings or on weekends, or a “starter” handful of heifers to put out on rented land.

I’m not sure it helps much for a worker to get a super-high hourly wage when taxes devour a huge portion of it, the cost of living is higher and he has no ability to make his income vary by effecting variations in his work.
 
There are a hundred million people dead of HIV, already and another 200 million or so infected out here in the real world. I live in Africa, where poverty, pain, starvation, homelessness, disease, lack of education clean water and health care, anomie, crime driven by carelessness about life are rife. So should I be satisfied that Jesus told us we will always have the poor with us? What proportion of the people should be poor? 98? (which is the global figure). Alot of what you mentioned is preventable. Some is not. Compassion and the care of the least is part of the moral obligation of everyone.

There is a whole world out here. Yes and if the USA takes from us to equalize the 2% of the worlds population that lives here in the USA there would be nothing left to give to those in actual need. TV, internet, cars, designer clothing and vacations to Disney World are not a good reason to take from others. Food, shelter and other basic needs should be a moral obligation and not a law.

That is good for Americans but perhaps not great for anyone else. Money used for those in the world in actual need is well spent. Money taken from others to support abortion is not. What those in the USA and other industrial countries believe as their right is not money well spent IMHO.

Let’s not overlay everything with the abortion issues, important though they are. An entire thread on HIV last year got eaten up by condom issues, as if keeping people alive is less important than creating more people. (Google Fr Michael J Kelly on the Catholic Church and HIV). The simple truth is that if people respected other people and remained faithful to the teachings of “one man and one woman” within marriage there would be few if any new cases of HIV or AIDS in the world. Even if the culture allows for more then one spouse if those involved were not sexually active prior to becoming a family HIV and AIDS would become a distant memory. Try as we might we can not control others behaviors.

Can we be less callous about those whom Christ served? We need to give with our eyes wide open and where it will do the most good. Give to those that are Innocent victims first. If money is still available after feeding and medical care for them then give to those that make their own choices. Callous, maybe. Realistic yes.
 
It’s kind of like the concept of camping. I like backwoods camping, though I haven’t done it in a while. My wife’s idea of “roughing it” is staying at a small hotel/motel instead of an Embassy Suites. 😃
Up here in da nort woods of da U.P., camping is second nature to doze who live here. Especially during da deer season. Did juu see da turdy pointer?
 
There are those that swore they seen it, yet it somehow manages to elude even the sharpest of hunters. 😃
That’s 'cause he’s in Arkansas. “Old Thirty-Thirty” has a huge rack – he was bred for that, and lives on a farm east of here. I understand his genetic line is patented, and he’s used to artificially breed does on commercial hunting lands.
 
That’s 'cause he’s in Arkansas. “Old Thirty-Thirty” has a huge rack – he was bred for that, and lives on a farm east of here. I understand his genetic line is patented, and he’s used to artificially breed does on commercial hunting lands.
Oh…a “thirty pointer”…here I thought mapleoak was talkin’ about a new breed of dog that points at something other than game. 😉 😃
 
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