Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[Moore11]

In fairness, I have attended Lutheran services, and they are very similar to the Novus Ordo Mass, so I can see how people would think that. It would be tiresome to go into all the details, but go to a Lutheran service, and you will see the similarity.

I don’t think anyone is trying to pit the Novus Ordo against the Tridentine Latin Mass, except the person that instigated the whole FSSP celebrating a Novus Ordo Mass thought experiment, similar to what prompted the idea for this movie in 1973.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4

And having attended both forms of the Mass in different localities by different priests, and studied the wording of both very carefully, it would be impossible for me to deny that there are significant differences between the two forms. Whether these differences are theologically significant is not as clear.

For most Catholics, they will simply attend whatever form of the Mass is available to them. However when given the choice between the two, it is still my common observation that the Tridentine Latin Mass still seems to be the preferred Mass for younger people.

I was at a Lutheran Church for a community gathering a year ago and picked up a missal and music book and flipped through it and what struck me was how similar to the Mass it was. But the only thing I wondered was would they follow suit and change the wording in some of the prayers like the Catholic Church did last year. So what do you think? Will the Lutheran Church follow suit?

 

[1AugustSon7]

Seriously? I always thought the Novus Ordo was based on Thomas Cranmer’s Godly Order. Maybe it’s a little of both.

It most certainly is not.

Regardless, one of the supreme strengths of Crammer &co’s reforms was it rendition into the vernacular, and a specially gifted use of the vernacular that powerfully impressed itself upon the psyche and culture of England even to this day. “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.” There is nothing inherently or morally wrong with a religion doing that; indeed, it is most desirable- it’s inculturation. Unfortunately for Masses in the vernacular, the Protestants used vernacularism exactly as a symbol of opposition to the Church which, in the case of a Mass, is sacrilege: the Mass is the concrete mystical realization of the Church’s profound unity. Anytime a Mass is offered as a symbol in protest to the Church it is inherently sacrilegious. There was and is danger for a renewed appreciation of the Latin Mass/EF that it may suffer the same fate as the Protestant vernacular “mass”: it could become too concretely a symbol of opposition rather than unity and suffer a ban as a consequence (however unlikely that is, it is a potentiality though an extremely unlikely one).

 

[floresco]

Says who? There’s nothing in CAF rules like that. People on here talk about why they prefer it all the time.
Maybe you should spent time with normal traditional Catholics here. Instead of the more extreme kind on another forum?

There is a range of opinions among the trads on Fish Eaters and much more freedom to discuss them. People here can only talk about subjective reasons for preferring the EF.

 

[JustaServant]

There is a range of opinions among the trads on Fish Eaters and much more freedom to discuss them. People here can only talk about subjective reasons for preferring the EF.

Define “freedom to discuss”.
Lets take NCR for example. There are many Protestant posters over there like JonNC, Byzanine Wolf, Batman, Gaelic Bard who spend pages and pages of debate about the Refomation, faith and works, the Papacy. All do so with maturity, intelligence and charity. There’s no chains on them.
Now, in comes the wide-eyed fundamentalist with “the Pope is the anti-Christ!! The CC is the whore of Babylon!!” He abuses his “freedom” with extreme views, simplistic arguments and a lack of maturity.
Guess what? Have those topics been discussed before? You betcha. But with those three magic words: Intelligence, maturity and charity. Respect for other people and positions whether you agree or not.
Immaturity is NOT freedom.
If a person cannot discuss an issue without lapsing into insult, attack, or bad language. He’s not a terribly good spokesperson for his POV, is he?

 

[floresco]

If a person cannot discuss an issue without lapsing into insult, attack, or bad language. He’s not a terribly good spokesperson for his POV, is he?

I do not understand why you are saying this to me. I never use insults, attacks or bad language.

 

[JustaServant]

I do not understand why you are saying this to me. I never use insults, attacks or bad language.

Never said you did.
But others who call themselves “trads” do.
That is the reason I am giving you an example.
They have a lot in common with fundamentalists. They love “freedom”.
Well, Adam and Eve wanted “freedom” too…

 

[floresco]

Never said you did.
But others who call themselves “trads” do.
That is the reason I am giving you an example.
They have a lot in common with fundamentalists. They love “freedom”.
Well, Adam and Eve wanted “freedom” too…

Every group has people who do not represent it well. And every group has good people, even fundamentalists.

I am not sure why you are talking about freedom but that is what the homily today was about. The priest said that only real freedom is in obeying God. I want that freedom.

 

[JustaServant]

The priest said that only real freedom is in obeying God. I want that freedom.

 

[ProVobis]

One of the driving ideas behind the creation of the OF was the idea that the EF was lacking in participation by the laity.

This is a good point.

Perhaps the same can be said for the pre-1955 Holy Week and pre-1962 rubrics. Mass reforms had already been well underway before the Vatican II council was commenced.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I am not an extremist and yet I cannot even talk about why I prefer the EF.

No one is saying you can’t talk about why you prefer the EF. The question I asked is why do people have to compare the two? Or have to put down the OF in order to explain why they like the EF? I’m not saying you per se…just others. If the only way they can explain why they like the EF by putting down the OF then its poor communication IMHO. The example I gave was like telling my husband that I thought he was cute because everyone else around him was so ugly. Not very complimentary to anyone.

I myself prefer the OF however I have nothing against the EF. I’m happy when people can attend the one that they prefer. I don’t see how their enjoyment of the EF takes anything away from the OF. I just wish it went both ways on this forumn…that’s all.

 

[Melchior_1]

I do not use that rhetoric which you object to.

My comment(s) weren’t directed at you specifically, because you’ve never been banned here for saying anything outlandish or ban-worthy. That you feel under attack (and perhaps have been attacked) is unfortunate.

That said, I see very, very few people here opposed to traditional practices or customs overall. No one who posts here is anti-EF. They say their opinions, and their opinions do not contradict the Church in most matters. I’ve seen several posters here get upset for someone daring to say that they austere liturgies and non-ornate churches, and when people explain why they get told “you’re a modernist or anti-tradition!” Eventually, some folks get annoyed and tempers flared across the board…

On the surface, and on both sides, I think there’s an element of feeling attacked when there are no attacks happening. There’s also times when attacks actually are happening mind you, but that strikes me as being in the minority.

 

[Melchior_1]

I am not sure why you are talking about freedom but that is what the homily today was about. The priest said that only real freedom is in obeying God. I want that freedom.

Must have bee a great homily!

Reminds me that I’ve been meaning to sit down and type out some reflections on “holy obedience”.

 

[floresco]

No one is saying you can’t talk about why you prefer the EF. The question I asked is why do people have to compare the two? Or have to put down the OF in order to explain why they like the EF? I’m not saying you per se…just others. If the only way they can explain why they like the EF by putting down the OF then its poor communication IMHO. The example I gave was like telling my husband that I thought he was cute because everyone else around him was so ugly. Not very complimentary to anyone.

I myself prefer the OF however I have nothing against the EF. I’m happy when people can attend the one that they prefer. I don’t see how their enjoyment of the EF takes anything away from the OF. I just wish it went both ways on this forumn…that’s all.

I have concerns about theological implications of the OF. I prefer the EF because I think it is much better at expressing Catholic theology. That is about as far as I can go without running afoul of the moderation policies. So I can not talk about why I prefer the EF. I would be allowed to say I like the music better or it makes me feel good, but I am not allowed to go into detail about the reason I think is the most important. It comes under pitting the EF against the OF

We may talk about our Mass preferences as if they were flavours of ice cream, mere matters of personal taste. It is fine to say I like chocolate as long as I do not suggest that it is actually better than vanilla. And that is right when we are talking about ice cream.

When I signed up here, I agreed to follow the rules and I have every intention of doing so. I do not mean to sound like I am complaining about them. But do not tell me that may talk about why I prefer the EF. I may not.

 

[floresco]

My comment(s) weren’t directed at you specifically, because you’ve never been banned here for saying anything outlandish or ban-worthy. That you feel under attack (and perhaps have been attacked) is unfortunate.

I keep getting the feeling that I am being held responsible for every trad who has ever behaved like a jerk. People respond to my posts to make points they have argued about with other trads that have little or nothing to do with what I said. It is as if, once I have called myself a trad, I have ceased to be an individual.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

this is so true. At my parish they keep tinkering with having a guitar played at mass like somehow thats going to miraculously bring in youth. I think its condescending for one thing and it shows that the liberals only what they feel works when all they are doing is patching a worn out busted tire that should have been tossed years ago.

I think it’s true that the younger people who were never even alive for VII (like myself) are the ones who seem to be highly interested in the EF. It’s what gives me hope that in the future more of these young people will become priests and the EF will become more widespread and easily available.

It’s a shame that these liberals don’t see what’s in front of them. We hear so much about young people falling away from the Church, well… maybe this is part of the answer. A return to tradition.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

if that is the case, then the “transitional mass” or missal of 1965 more than satisfied the desires of VII. The Novous Ordo of today is not what the VII intended.

As intended by Vatican II.

 

[Melchior_1]

I keep getting the feeling that I am being held responsible for every trad who has ever behaved like a jerk. People respond to my posts to make points they have argued about with other trads that have little or nothing to do with what I said. It is as if, once I have called myself a trad, I have ceased to be an individual.

We both know people should behave in such a fashion. Most of the folks I know here at CAF are not like that, at least the reasonable folks I know.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

A lot better than it used to be.
I haven’t been over here to the TC forum for a while. It’s changed a lot since the old days. Tom’s done a great job of getting it into shape.
Women and children can walk the streets of the TC forum after sundown now.

 

[TimothyH]

I got that impression too. Perhaps there is something about your tone.

Your signature speaks of “A willingness to be corrected.” Quite frankly Brother, I don’t see it.

Thank you for the frank discussion.

-Tim-

 

[10thCrusader]

GangGreen;10295268:

I think it’s true that the younger people who were never even alive for VII (like myself) are the ones who seem to be highly interested in the EF. It’s what gives me hope that in the future more of these young people will become priests and the EF will become more widespread and easily available.

It’s a shame that these liberals don’t see what’s in front of them. We hear so much about young people falling away from the Church, well… maybe this is part of the answer. A return to tradition.

this is so true. At my parish they keep tinkering with having a guitar played at mass like somehow thats going to miraculously bring in youth. I think its condescending for one thing and it shows that the liberals only what they feel works when all they are doing is patching a worn out busted tire that should have been tossed years ago.

I’ve seen the folk masses (guitars, drums, etc.), and it is definitely not appealing to the young people. Once they aren’t being dragged there by their parents, they don’t go anymore. They are not being fooled into thinking they’re at a rock concert.

Most young people are looking for meaning in their lives. The spiritual depth of the Tridentine Latin Mass seems to fill that void.

Deny it all you want, stick your head in the sand if you want. I see the large number of young people every week at Solemn High Mass on Sunday, and their numbers are growing.