Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[MissRose73]

I am close to age 40, and love the EF Mass, but my diocese doesn’t offer it. I just hope someday it will be as I love the reverence and traditions plus many of the churches have beautiful art and music too.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I wouldn’t use a “Catholic Assault Vehicle” to arrive. I would arrive with one child and no husband. And we wouldn’t take up an entire pew.

You could always hire some “seat fillers” if that were your concern.

But seriously, I don’t doubt that there are a few who would look at you “in an evil manner” unless you bring in ten kids. Or even if you weren’t to go to communion. But know that that is rare in the EF environment. I’d be afraid myself if I were to see this.

 

[Lormar]

I all fairness, your experience is with modern fads, right?

I think a rite that has existed in more or less the same form for 1,500 years is not a fad.

I am confident that unless the Church suppresses it again, the Latin Mass will outlive everything else.

I agree with you on this completely.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This thread is so sad.

We started out with what should have been good news - a report about youth (young adults) attending Mass in good numbers.

It has now descended into a squabble about whose parish has the most people - especially children. And is causing division within the church family.

Everyone posting here is a faithful Catholic who attends Mass regularly. Why are we arguing about what each other’s parish demographics look like??

Can we not rejoice that the Church is growing in many areas and through the many different expressions of the Catholic faith. :dancing:

EXACTLY! I suggest everyone look at post #252 for the moderator, step back and take a deep breath!

When we put the two forms of the Mass against each… We create division.,…and the devil must be laughing…how does that give any glory to God?

 

[floresco]

A good priest should not be thinking and making comparisons in that manner.

Priests are trained in theology and therefore able to think about the forms of Mass in terms of their theological implications. I think it is very likely that many priests compare the theology of the two forms (when they are familiar with both) and have preferences based on this theology. I do not see how this would make them bad priests.

 

[clem456]

Originally Posted by floresco
There are people who have serious concerns about the OF even though they acknowledge it as a valid Catholic Mass. It is common for the men who are attracted to the FSSP to be like this. For example, if a priest thinks that the EF is a far superior expression of Catholic theology, he might feel like saying the OF is giving God second best. I can imagine myself being very distressed if I were in such a situation.

A good priest should not be thinking and making comparisons in that manner.

Priests are trained in theology and therefore able to think about the forms of Mass in terms of their theological implications. I think it is very likely that many priests compare the theology of the two forms (when they are familiar with both) and have preferences based on this theology. I do not see how this would make them bad priests.

Leaving the good/bad aside for a second…
This issue is a matter of obedience to, and trust in, the priest’s superiors, and the Church at large, it’s not a matter of how knowlegable he is in theology.
None of the priests that I know ( I have one in the family) make comparisons of the “two” forms of the Mass. It’s not even on the radar screen. Not in their sphere of influence or competence. Even less for you and I.

 

[floresco]

Whenever the thought hits me to try the EF, I try to squash it pretty quick. Having only one child and being married to someone that isn’t Catholic, I know, from CAF that I wouldn’t be very welcome at an EF. Thankfully, my son and I can attend our local OF Mass, without anyone giving us the evil eye.

(If you ever wonder why there aren’t more small families at your local EF, you might look at how you treat us. )

One of my grown children is married with three little ones of her own. She feels uncomfortable at the EF with them because she feels under pressure to keep them very quiet there. She is more comfortable taking them to the OF precisely because it is less silent and reverent and she does not worry about her children disturbing people.

I do not think that it would really be as bad as she thinks but she has built up this expectation in her mind that ruins her ability to appreciate the EF. But she is an adult and this is her decision to make. I am just happy that she goes to Mass and is raising my grandsons as Catholics.

On the bright side, because I know that some people could feel the way my daughter does, it makes me more sensitive to people with small children. This past Sunday after Mass, I was encouraging a mother who was there with her baby, telling her that I appreciated her work in coming to Mass with a baby and many children. I really like seeing babies there because I like babies but also those families are sending an important message.

For the record, if you came to Mass at my parish I would be happy to see you there and would not care how many children you have.

 

[Lormar]

EXACTLY! I suggest everyone look at post #252 for the moderator, step back and take a deep breath!

When we put the two forms of the Mass against each… We create division.,…and the devil must be laughing…how does that give any glory to God?

 

[floresco]

Leaving the good/bad aside for a second…
This issue is a matter of obedience to, and trust in, the priest’s superiors, and the Church at large, it’s not a matter of how knowlegable he is in theology.
None of the priests that I know ( I have one in the family) make comparisons of the “two” forms of the Mass. It’s not even on the radar screen. Not in their sphere of influence or competence. Even less for you and I.

How is it being disobedient to make comparisons and have preferences between the two forms? There is nothing in Church teaching which tells us such a thing.

While he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, our Pope wrote a book called Spirit of the Liturgy in which he was critical of various aspects of the OF. He was not being a bad priest or being disobedient when he did this. There are priests in good standing who write about the Mass and analyze liturgy and make comparisons of the forms. There is no reason to think they are doing anything wrong.

 

[Walking_Home]

Annabelle Marie:

EXACTLY! I suggest everyone look at post #252 for the moderator, step back and take a deep breath!

When we put the two forms of the Mass against each… We create division.,…and the devil must be laughing…how does that give any glory to God?

---

Ditto --

 

[GloriaMaria]

One of my grown children is married with three little ones of her own. She feels uncomfortable at the EF with them because she feels under pressure to keep them very quiet there. She is more comfortable taking them to the OF precisely because it is less silent and reverent and she does not worry about her children disturbing people.

I do not think that it would really be as bad as she thinks but she has built up this expectation in her mind that ruins her ability to appreciate the EF. But she is an adult and this is her decision to make. I am just happy that she goes to Mass and is raising my grandsons as Catholics.

On the bright side, because I know that some people could feel the way my daughter does, it makes me more sensitive to people with small children. This past Sunday after Mass, I was encouraging a mother who was there with her baby, telling her that I appreciated her work in coming to Mass with a baby and many children. I really like seeing babies there because I like babies but also those families are sending an important message.

For the record, if you came to Mass at my parish I would be happy to see you there and would not care how many children you have.

I also had a hard time taking my young children to the EF, and unfortunately, even though I always had an infant (which is listed as a serious enough reason to miss Mass by the Church) - I was criticized often and insultingly by more than one member at the EF for missing Mass with the young ones. So perhaps your daughter had a legitimate concern.

I recently read a book about the Holy Father. In it, his brother relates his childhood recollections of Mass. He referred to the time when children were old enough to be taken to Mass. It made me feel better. It is not traditional to take kids who are still in diapers or squalling to Mass. It’s ok. Most people don’t mind too much. But why do we have to feel like this is necessary? It is just scruples. And maybe bragging rights.

I have teens at the EF and OF. They appreciate both. I think that they don’t like the social aspect of the EF. They get judged regarding their clothing (they don’t violate any rules).

But they also know they are there for Mass. So, it doesn’t interfere.

 

[Lormar]

I recently read a book about the Holy Father. In it, his brother relates his childhood recollections of Mass. He referred to the time when children were old enough to be taken to Mass. It made me feel better. It is not traditional to take kids who are still in diapers or squalling to Mass. It’s ok. Most people don’t mind too much. But why do we have to feel like this is necessary? It is just scruples. And maybe bragging rights.

That is very true. I grew up in a major East Coast Archdiocese. No one brought their infants or toddlers to Mass. The mother stayed home with the young ones while the father went with the older children. When he came home, the mother went to a later Mass.

Of course, that was in the days when we had three and more Masses every Sunday (every day in fact).

 

[Lormar]

Wanted to add, so no one misreads my post, that I have nothing against children at Mass.

That’s just the way it was back then before Vatican II. That’s why we had no cry rooms in most churches.

 

[Brendan]

That is very true. I grew up in a major East Coast Archdiocese. No one brought their infants or toddlers to Mass. The mother stayed home with the young ones while the father went with the older children. When he came home, the mother went to a later Mass.

Of course, that was in the days when we had three and more Masses every Sunday (every day in fact).

Not for us. My mother went to Daily Mass, so that meant taking the ones who were not in school with her.

 

[Lormar]

I am sorry, Brendan. I should have been specific. I was talking about Sunday Mass, and was only relating how things were in my part of the archdiocese.

I wasn’t trying to make a blanket statement that it was the same everywhere.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

That is very true. I grew up in a major East Coast Archdiocese. No one brought their infants or toddlers to Mass. The mother stayed home with the young ones while the father went with the older children. When he came home, the mother went to a later Mass.

Of course, that was in the days when we had three and more Masses every Sunday (every day in fact).

So blessed to be able to say that my parish still does have three Masses everyday (except Saturday which just has one daily Mass)!

I wasn’t taken to Mass as a baby either, but we had several non-Catholic family members living with us then who could take care of me while the rest of the family went.

I think it wasn’t until the rise of the nuclear family living alone that babies and young children were regularly brought to Mass. Until then there was always enough adults in the house that they could do a “split shift” as you described.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Not for us. My mother went to Daily Mass, so that meant taking the ones who were not in school with her.

Right, lots of mothers did this. But daily Mass is much shorter than Sunday Mass and the congregation is old woman and other young mothers with young children.

 

[Brendan]

II wasn’t trying to make a blanket statement that it was the same everywhere.

No offense take

 

[clem456]

How is it being disobedient to make comparisons and have preferences between the two forms? There is nothing in Church teaching which tells us such a thing.

While he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, our Pope wrote a book called Spirit of the Liturgy in which he was critical of various aspects of the OF. He was not being a bad priest or being disobedient when he did this. There are priests in good standing who write about the Mass and analyze liturgy and make comparisons of the forms. There is no reason to think they are doing anything wrong.

Geez. I didn’t say anyone was being disobedient. Good priests/bad priests? Huh?
This is a purely hypothetical discussion anyway, I’m not pretending to know any specific circumstance.

Obedience and trust. The priest has a vocation. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe part of that vocation is to critically analyze the Mass like this:

Originally Posted by floresco
There are people who have serious concerns about the OF even though they acknowledge it as a valid Catholic Mass (whew, I am truly relieved it is valid). It is common for the men who are attracted to the FSSP to be like this. For example, if a priest thinks that the EF is a **far superior **expression of Catholic theology, he might feel like saying the OF is giving God second best. I can imagine myself being **very distressed **if I were in such a situation.

Honestly, this is your opinion, which you are projecting onto priests generally, which is not a fair thing to do.
Obedience is a part of loving the Church and trusting that those whose charge it is to make these decisions are doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is not the same thing as mute servitude. I would think Cardinal Ratzinger had the competence and authority to talk about this. I suppose the people he serves should listen to him?

I like the origin of the word obedience
ob-audire: to listen.
Kinda the opposite of hammering things out to one’s own liking.

 

[thewanderer]

Honestly, this is your opinion, which you are projecting onto priests generally, which is not a fair thing to do.
Obedience is a part of loving the Church and trusting that those whose charge it is to make these decisions are doing so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Obedience is not the same thing as mute servitude. I would think Cardinal Ratzinger had the competence and authority to talk about this. I suppose the people he serves should listen to him?

I really didn’t see her as trying to portray this as being the attitude of priests in general, but just helping to try to explain why she believes some FSSP priests would be distressed and upset if they were asked to say the OF. I think her assessment is correct and I don’t understand why you are attacking it?? It is not official Church teaching that we must hold that there is nothing in one form of the mass that makes it a better or worse expression of the faith, because of that there is nothing disobediant in thinking that one form of the Mass is a better expression of the Catholic faith, and so priests who believe this are not, as such, being disobedient in any respect. Yes, such people are sometimes also disobedient, but having that opinion is not, in itself, wrong.