Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[Bob_Aliano]

It’s more that the sorts of people we seem to have at the EF mass are not friendly to contemporary young adults.

I do find that those at the FSSP parish where I attend the EF Mass are not as sociable, are more cliquish than those at the OF parish but I don’t attend Mass as a social event. To me the Mass, either form, is a communal adoration of the Lord not an occasion to socialize and that is why I dislike the OF pre-Mass greeting and Sign of Peace. Most parishes have coffee and donuts after Mass, that is where any socializing should occur, not in church especially not during the Liturgy.

I find that at any parish it’s much easier to feel part of the community if one volunteers or joins in some events or organizations. Most parishes have some form of youth organization or youth events such as a movie, music or pizza night, religious discussion groups, local pilgrimages or tours of local shrines and other parishes.

I’m a little concerned that you feel people are not friendly to contemporary young adults since this is totally opposite of my experience at any parish of either form; could it be that you are entering with an attitude? Often we have to take the first step in being friendly and suppress any preconceived notions we have about those we are meeting to gain acceptance.

 

[Moore11]

I guess what I meant is the TLM…not at the Cathedral anyway. They always have music…at least the times I’ve been there. But the tabernacle is off to the side in a separate room…I personally don’t like that…

I suppose you are right about the comparison but it does give me an unfavorable opinion of traditionalist…so I can always pray that it will. I also dislike that when someone sticks up for the OF…some people will treat you like you are not a faithful Catholic.

Well, I can tell you this. For many of us an abusive OF is all we know. And all we have access to. If you live in an area that is Orthodox and obedient good for you. You are blessed. Many of us are not. I live in a diocese that suppresses the EF. I have described this many times. the nearest EF is 7 hours and about 500 miles away in a different time zone!!! To get there in winter I would have to drive through three states. All the parishes around my area are the same. And it is the wish of the Bishop that they all be similar. And that is his right as Bishop. But please know that as lucky and blessed as you may be there are those that are not so fortunate.
Congratulation on your Bishop!!! He will be a great shepherd. The nearest licit EF to me is actually in your diocese.

For me the OF is not passe, or pales in comparison. In fact I love the OF because it is the ORDINARY form of Mass. BUT the OF I attend is passe, boring, abusive, unorthodox and irreverent. We attend because in the great words of Peter in John Chapter 6 “Master, to whom shall we go?” The EFs I have attended have been almost an alien experience in a good way. They are reverent, beautiful, and a “religious experience.” This has nothing to do with whether, when celebrated as intended, the OF is just as valid or beautiful. It has everything to do with many areas that are still “experimenting” with the 60s 70s butterflies and daisies, Masses that so many of us have.
I will say this. The difference I have had between the EF(when I am able to travel to attend) and the OF down the street is as plain as a Papal Mass and a Calvary Chapel “service.” Understand I am not saying the OF is like a protestant service but only the local OF that I attend lacks orthodoxy.
I will be in the Portland area in two weeks for a Men’s retreat. Maybe you can tell me the OF you go to that is reverent. Please!

 

[Moore11]

BTW…Bishop Samples won’t be doing a high Mass at the Cathedral in Portland, OR…it’s not built for one.

And what an absolute SHAME that is.

But good news! There is no reason it cannot be transformed into one!

 

[DarkLight]

I do find that those at the FSSP parish where I attend the EF Mass are not as sociable, are more cliquish than those at the OF parish but I don’t attend Mass as a social event. To me the Mass, either form, is a communal adoration of the Lord not an occasion to socialize and that is why I dislike the OF pre-Mass greeting and Sign of Peace. Most parishes have coffee and donuts after Mass, that is where any socializing should occur, not in church especially not during the Liturgy.

I find that at any parish it’s much easier to feel part of the community if one volunteers or joins in some events or organizations. Most parishes have some form of youth organization or youth events such as a movie, music or pizza night, religious discussion groups, local pilgrimages or tours of local shrines and other parishes.

I’m a little concerned that you feel people are not friendly to contemporary young adults since this is totally opposite of my experience at any parish of either form; could it be that you are entering with an attitude? Often we have to take the first step in being friendly and suppress any preconceived notions we have about those we are meeting to gain acceptance.

Oh it wasn’t that they weren’t sociable. It’s that our local EF Mass is sort of the preserve of the ultra-conservative elements. Like I said upthread, it felt like I’d traveled back in time in a bad way. Very dismissive of people who didn’t agree with all their standards and very much the attitude that their EF Mass was superior to any other.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Oh it wasn’t that they weren’t sociable. It’s that our local EF Mass is sort of the preserve of the ultra-conservative elements. Like I said upthread, it felt like I’d traveled back in time in a bad way. Very dismissive of people who didn’t agree with all their standards and very much the attitude that their EF Mass was superior to any other.

Let me suggest you consider talking to the pastor if it’s a TLM parish or the celebrant if it’s ordinarily an OF parish. You keep making comments such as “dismissive of people who didn’t agree with all their standard” that make me wonder exactly who might be at fault, if anyone, it could be a misunderstanding on both sides. Understand there is a real concern by those of us who prefer the EF of the Mass that a gradual infiltration of liberals could damage the Liturgy we so love, right or wrong we are a bit defensive and wary of new-comers with liberal ideas. If you really want to join the EF congregation let down your guard and appreciate it for the beauty and tradition it represents.

 

[thewanderer]

Let me suggest you consider talking to the pastor if it’s a TLM parish or the celebrant if it’s ordinarily an OF parish. You keep making comments such as “dismissive of people who didn’t agree with all their standard” that make me wonder exactly who might be at fault, if anyone, it could be a misunderstanding on both sides. Understand there is a real concern by those of us who prefer the EF of the Mass that a gradual infiltration of liberals could damage the Liturgy we so love, right or wrong we are a bit defensive and wary of new-comers with liberal ideas. If you really want to join the EF congregation let down your guard and appreciate it for the beauty and tradition it represents.

I realize I might be speaking out of turn, but honestly, it really is possible that this has nothing tto do with a lack of appreciating the beauty of the EF. I have personally seen this as well. I think the EF is beautiful, and at one time actually preferred it to the OF, but even then when I was very open to it and beginning to really appreciate its beauty, I was turned off by the people in the parish. And it wasn’t because they weren’t being accepting of me, but I just knew that I honestly couldn’t fit in with them, and so there was no real option of having a sense of community with them, even as I grew to love the EF. I have since then been to another Church that celebrates the EF and gotten to know other people who attend that I really get along with and am really close friends with some of them. Darklight already said that she loves the beauty of the EF so I suspect she is having a problem similar to the one that I had.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I realize I might be speaking out of turn, but honestly, it really is possible that this has nothing tto do with a lack of appreciating the beauty of the EF. I have personally seen this as well. I think the EF is beautiful, and at one time actually preferred it to the OF, but even then when I was very open to it and beginning to really appreciate its beauty, I was turned off by the people in the parish. And it wasn’t because they weren’t being accepting of me, but I just knew that I honestly couldn’t fit in with them, and so there was no real option of having a sense of community with them, even as I grew to love the EF. I have since then been to another Church that celebrates the EF and gotten to know other people who attend that I really get along with and am really close friends with some of them. Darklight already said that she loves the beauty of the EF so I suspect she is having a problem similar to the one that I had.

So am I to understand that everyone at your local OF parish is warm and welcoming, never in cliques?

You both have to decide why you’re attending Mass and what is important to you when you attend. If the answer is you only care about worshiping God social aspects shouldn’t matter, if it’s important that you socialize and be afforded external encouragement then perhaps the OF is more for you. In any case, remember the Mass isn’t there to entertain us it’s there for worship and adoration.

 

[DarkLight]

So am I to understand that everyone at your local OF parish is warm and welcoming, never in cliques?

You both have to decide why you’re attending Mass and what is important to you when you attend. If the answer is you only care about worshiping God social aspects shouldn’t matter, if it’s important that you socialize and be afforded external encouragement then perhaps the OF is more for you. In any case, remember the Mass isn’t there to entertain us it’s there for worship and adoration.

You’re putting out a false dichotomy here. Would it be less worshiping God at an OF Mass than an EF Mass? I love the EF for its beauty and history, but the beauty itself is no more a necessary part of worship. Could we not worship God at the simplest Mass possible, so long as the sacrifice is there? Is the OF a lesser Mass, that we are less worshipful or less reverent if we go there?

Nor do I think you should be so dismissive of social aspects. Our Christian life is not meant to be lived alone. Perhaps some of us would rather choose a parish where we are encouraged and supported for following our own path as we feel God has called, rather than being judged for how “conservative” or “liberal” we are - especially in areas where the Church herself has not laid down her rule.

 

[TimothyH]

While perhaps, in theory, they could not refuse to celebrate the OF if asked by their bishop (I am not enough of a canonist to know) a bishop making such a request would clearly be wrong. He would be asking them to violate their Constitutions.

Edited to add: Those people who claim that the FSSP is an order with a Rule that prevents them from saying the OF are getting the terminology wrong but are essentially correct. The FSSP is a Society with Constitutions that prevent them from saying the OF. They are committed to faithful observance of “spiritual and liturgical traditions” that include the EF.

No, this simply is not correct.

The bishop of the diocese in which they operate can command them to celebrate the OF. FSSP priests are not exempt religious. Non-exempt priests may not refuse what is ordinary if told to do so by the Bishop of the diocese in which they operate.

And their constitution does not prevent them from saying the OF. That simply isn’t correct. There is no such wording in their constitution. FSSP priests can certainly say the OF. No less of an expert than Father Z says so.

***I cannot speak for any FSSP priest and whether or not he would say Mass in the Ordinary Form, but he certainly could do so.

As priests of the Latin Church with faculties to say Mass FSSP priests can use either form of the Roman Rite. However, as priests of the FSSP they have a particular apostolate which involves the use of the Extraordinary Form.**

Read More…*

The FSSP do not operate in many diocese for exactly this reason. In diocese where the bishop requires non-religious priests to concelebrate the chrism Mass, FSSP priests have the choice of 1) accepting an invitation to operate in the diocese with the understanding that they would be required to concelebrate the OF once each year or, 2) not accepting the invitation. The result is that the local bishop never extends the invitation for the FSSP to enter the diocese because FSSP priests know that they can be commanded to celebrate the OF by the bishop and know that he would do so. In not inviting the FSSP into the diocese, the bishop is respecting the FSSP charism for the EF.

I have no desire to get involved in an EF vs OF debate, but with all due respect to the many participants in this thread, there is a lot of misunderstanding about the FSSP, who they are and how they operate, and about the rules of the Church.

-Tim-

 

[clem456]

Let me suggest you consider talking to the pastor if it’s a TLM parish or the celebrant if it’s ordinarily an OF parish. You keep making comments such as “dismissive of people who didn’t agree with all their standard” that make me wonder exactly who might be at fault, if anyone, it could be a misunderstanding on both sides. Understand there is a real concern by those of us who prefer the EF of the Mass that a gradual infiltration of liberals could damage the Liturgy we so love, right or wrong we are a bit defensive and wary of new-comers with liberal ideas. If you really want to join the EF congregation let down your guard and appreciate it for the beauty and tradition it represents.

Wow. Just wow. Where to begin. I think I will stop before I get started.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

You’re putting out a false dichotomy here. Would it be less worshiping God at an OF Mass than an EF Mass? I love the EF for its beauty and history, but the beauty itself is no more a necessary part of worship. Could we not worship God at the simplest Mass possible, so long as the sacrifice is there? Is the OF a lesser Mass, that we are less worshipful or less reverent if we go there?

Nor do I think you should be so dismissive of social aspects. Our Christian life is not meant to be lived alone. Perhaps some of us would rather choose a parish where we are encouraged and supported for following our own path as we feel God has called, rather than being judged for how “conservative” or “liberal” we are - especially in areas where the Church herself has not laid down her rule.

I raised two kids listening to the same lame whining argumentative style, I don’t intend to participate in any more of it. Go to the church you prefer and stop whining about the others.

 

[DarkLight]

I raised two kids listening to the same lame whining argumentative style, I don’t intend to participate in any more of it. Go to the church you prefer and stop whining about the others.

Defensive much?

 

[TimothyH]

So am I to understand that everyone at your local OF parish is warm and welcoming, never in cliques?

You both have to decide why you’re attending Mass and what is important to you when you attend. If the answer is you only care about worshiping God social aspects shouldn’t matter, if it’s important that you socialize and be afforded external encouragement then perhaps the OF is more for you. In any case, remember the Mass isn’t there to entertain us it’s there for worship and adoration.

Bob, there really is is no such thing as an OF/EF parish or an OF/EF priest or an OF/EF congregation. The OF and EF are forms of the Mass, not labels for priests and parishes.

You should know that refering to anything other than a form of the Mass as EF or OF is against the forum rules.

-Tim-

 

[thewanderer]

So am I to understand that everyone at your local OF parish is warm and welcoming, never in cliques?

You both have to decide why you’re attending Mass and what is important to you when you attend. If the answer is you only care about worshiping God social aspects shouldn’t matter, if it’s important that you socialize and be afforded external encouragement then perhaps the OF is more for you. In any case, remember the Mass isn’t there to entertain us it’s there for worship and adoration.

Wow, you have made so many assumptions here.

First, I don’t understand why you think I am saying that people at OF are friendly and welcoming while people at EF are not, because that is so far from what I actually wrote its kind of staggering. I pointed out that there was** one **particular EF parish that I went to at one point in time where the people were friendly and welcoming, but so different in outlook on life in so many ways that we just could not really connect. Then I went on to talk about another EF Church where I found EF-goers I could actually fit in with. I was bringing up my own personal experience in case it would help DarkLight, and then in case it would help you understand where where DarkLight was coming from. I realize that she might not be coming from the same situation I was, which is why I admitted that I realized it might not be my place to speak up here, but I was putting it out there in case it was and in case it would help you to understand what was going on.

Second, why in the world do you think that I personally have to make a decision between worshiping God and having a Catholic social life??

Third, Why do you assume that caring about worshipping God means that I will attend the EF and caring about a social life means that I will attend the OF?? Thats actually not at all true for me. One of the reasons that the OF slowly triumphed over the EF for me was because, despite the beauty of the EF I found it easier to truly concentrate on the great mystery that was taking place at the OF than at the EF.

Fourth, you seem to imply that the best way to choose where to attend Mass is by looking only at the Church where you can best concentrate on the great Mystery at hand. This just isn’t quite true. We should all consider many factors when deciding on a parish to attend for Mass, not just what allows us to best concentrate on Mass. People should ultimately go to the Parish which will best help them grow closer to God, if that means they need a certain amount of parish community, then thats what they should think about, if that means they need to go somewhere exxtremely unorthodox with liturgical abuses and heresies spouting from the pastor so that they can take on the mission to help improve and renew that parish and so grow spiritually through taking on a great work, then that is where they should go. It is not a simple equation of where can you best concentrate on the Mass, but is instead a much more complex equation.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Bob, there really is is no such thing as an OF/EF parish or an OF/EF priest or an OF/EF congregation. The OF and EF are forms of the Mass, not labels for priests and parishes.

You should know that refering to anything other than a form of the Mass as EF or OF is against the forum rules.

-Tim-

I didn’t know about this forum rule but it is common to refer to a parish in which only the OF is said or is the predominate form of Mass as an OF parish just as an FSSP parish is commonly referred to as an EF or TLM parish. How does the forum prefer we designate these different parishes?

 

[Rich_C]

Bob, there really is is no such thing as an OF/EF parish or an OF/EF priest or an OF/EF congregation. The OF and EF are forms of the Mass, not labels for priests and parishes.

You should know that refering to anything other than a form of the Mass as EF or OF is against the forum rules.

-Tim-

I have noticed this convenient expression touches a lot of nerves here but I didn’t know it was against forum rules, so thanks for pointing that out.

Perhaps we need an alternative, easily-recognized term to replace “OF parish.” I suggest: “PTDOTMBTTSOH.”

In full: “parish that doesn’t offer ‘the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven’.”

From now on whenever I type “NO parish” or “OF parish” I will self-edit that to read “PTDOTMBTTSOH.”

Of course my parish has both the OF and TLM so we could classify it as a PTOTMBTTSOH.

For those rare cases where a parish offers only the usus antiquor, I think PTOOTMBTTSOH would work. The extra “O” is for “only,” in case anyone didn’t pick up on that.

I think these simple acronyms should solve this problem for everyone.

 

[thewanderer]

I have noticed this convenient expression touches a lot of nerves here but I didn’t know it was against forum rules, so thanks for pointing that out.

Perhaps we need an alternative, easily-recognized term to replace “OF parish.” I suggest: “PTDOTMBTTSOH.”

In full: “parish that doesn’t offer ‘the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven’.”

From now on whenever I type “NO parish” or “OF parish” I will self-edit that to read “PTDOTMBTTSOH.”

Of course my parish has both the OF and TLM so we could classify it as a PTOTMBTTSOH.

For those rare cases where a parish offers only the usus antiquor, I think PTOOTMBTTSOH would work. The extra “O” is for “only,” in case anyone didn’t pick up on that.

I think these simple acronyms should solve this problem for everyone.

Yeah, I totally don’t understand why saying “OF parish” or “EF parish” is so offensive?? I get that it is technically not correct, but it works to convey what we mean, and honestly, I don’t see how it can be offensive in the least.

 

[floresco]

No, this simply is not correct.

The bishop of the diocese in which they operate can command them to celebrate the OF. FSSP priests are not exempt religious. Non-exempt priests may not refuse what is ordinary if told to do so by the Bishop of the diocese in which they operate.

And their constitution does not prevent them from saying the OF. That simply isn’t correct. There is no such wording in their constitution. FSSP priests can certainly say the OF. No less of an expert than Father Z says so.

***I cannot speak for any FSSP priest and whether or not he would say Mass in the Ordinary Form, but he certainly could do so.

As priests of the Latin Church with faculties to say Mass FSSP priests can use either form of the Roman Rite. However, as priests of the FSSP they have a particular apostolate which involves the use of the Extraordinary Form.***

Read More…

The FSSP do not operate in many diocese for exactly this reason. In diocese where the bishop requires non-religious priests to concelebrate the chrism Mass, FSSP priests have the choice of 1) accepting an invitation to operate in the diocese with the understanding that they would be required to concelebrate the OF once each year or, 2) not accepting the invitation. The result is that the local bishop never extends the invitation for the FSSP to enter the diocese because FSSP priests know that they can be commanded to celebrate the OF by the bishop and know that he would do so. In not inviting the FSSP into the diocese, the bishop is respecting the FSSP charism for the EF.

I have no desire to get involved in an EF vs OF debate, but with all due respect to the many participants in this thread, there is a lot of misunderstanding about the FSSP, who they are and how they operate, and about the rules of the Church.

I think that you are contributing to the misunderstanding. The next sentence that Fr. Z said after the words you quoted was It could be unfair to pressure a priest of the FSSP to use the Ordinary Form, because of the identity of the group to which he belongs and their particular apostolate.

That supports what I said, that it would be wrong for a bishop to tell an FSSP priest to say the OF. I posted the link to the constitution. The words “faithful observance of spiritual and liturgical traditions” obviously include celebrating the EF. It is not right for a bishop to tell a member of a society to go against that society’s constitution. While they can celebrate the OF, in the sense that they are validly ordained Roman Catholic priests, they would be going against their very reason for existence if they did so. I can pick up this lap top and throw it across the room but there is no reason to think that I would ever do such a thing.

Do you have any documentation to support your speculation about the motivation of bishops? If you do not, it would be better to avoid stating your guesses as if they were facts.

 

[TimothyH]

Yeah, I totally don’t understand why saying “OF parish” or “EF parish” is so offensive?? I get that it is technically not correct, but it works to convey what we mean, and honestly, I don’t see how it can be offensive in the least.

It’s not offensive. I just prefer not to be identified by the form of the Mass I happen to go to.

My love for God transcends any form of the Mass. I am not an EF Catholic or an OF Catholic any more than I am an EF lover of Christ or an OF lover of Christ. I really don’t think Jesus is going to ask me about the form of Mass I went to while I was on earth.

If its OK with everyone here, please don’t label me an OF Catholic or an EF Catholic.

Thanks.

-Tim-

 

[Brendan]

And what an absolute SHAME that is.

But good news! There is no reason it cannot be transformed into one!

Exactly! He’s the bishop he can change that.

That is exactly what he did in his cathedral in Marquette. He said his monthly Pontifical Low Mass off of the shelf in the chaple where the tabernacle resided



And, if this is the correct photo of the Cathedral, there is no reason that a Mass cannot be said ad orientem on the current altar. There is no requirement in the EF that the altar must be attached to the reredos

http://maryscathedral.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/img_9489sm-1024x434.jpg