Youth and the Extraordinary Form

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There’s a couple of ways this works:

The usual method is that Societies of Apostolic Life (of Pontifical Right) get invited into a diocese by a Bishop. They set up shop in the diocese, either by being assigned a parish (A), starting their own aposolate (B), or starting their own parish (C).

In the case of (A), the Bishop assigns them and lets them do their thing. The Society decides who will live and run the parish, and will handle the administrative aspects. The Society can decide to shuffle their resources around as they see fit. All forms of disciple still go through the Society. The Society can be removed from the parish by the Bishop, but not removed from the diocese. To be removed from the diocese, the bishop needs to go to the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

In the case of (B), the Bishop cannot say anything regarding the aposolate if it is started and run by the Society. If the aposolate was started by the Diocese, the Bishop can shut it down, but still not remove the Society from the diocese.

In the case of (C), the Bishop has to go through the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life for anything, really.

Societies of Apostolic Life that are Diocesan Right are totally under control of the Bishop, so if the group is this then ignore everything I said above. Once a group gets Pontifical Right, what I say above applies.

I’ve spent the last eleven years working with a Society of Apostolic Life, and was there when they received their Pontifical Right status, so I’m pretty familiar with how their systems work.
 
Melchior said:
There’s a couple of ways this works:

The usual method is that Societies of Apostolic Life (of Pontifical Right) get invited into a diocese by a Bishop. They set up shop in the diocese, either by being assigned a parish (A), starting their own aposolate (B), or starting their own parish (C).

In the case of (A), the Bishop assigns them and lets them do their thing. The Society decides who will live and run the parish, and will handle the administrative aspects. The Society can decide to shuffle their resources around as they see fit. All forms of disciple still go through the Society. The Society can be removed from the parish by the Bishop, but not removed from the diocese. To be removed from the diocese, the bishop needs to go to the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.

In the case of (B), the Bishop cannot say anything regarding the aposolate if it is started and run by the Society. If the aposolate was started by the Diocese, the Bishop can shut it down, but still not remove the Society from the diocese.

In the case of (C), the Bishop has to go through the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life for anything, really.

Societies of Apostolic Life that are Diocesan Right are totally under control of the Bishop, so if the group is this then ignore everything I said above. Once a group gets Pontifical Right, what I say above applies.

I’ve spent the last eleven years working with a Society of Apostolic Life, and was there when they received their Pontifical Right status, so I’m pretty familiar with how their systems work.
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So I take it that you’ve been given the proper authority from the Catholic Church to interpret and implement canon law?
 
Denise1957 said:
So I take it that you’ve been given the proper authority from the Catholic Church to interpret and implement canon law?
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Have I personally? No I haven’t.

I have personally talked to Canon Lawyers within my diocese, other dioceses, and within Societies of Apostolic Life about these topics. I’ve talked to the founder of a Society of Apostolic Life about the nature of their status within the Church.

No, I do not have “proper authority” in the sense you are speaking. In this case, I am communicating what proper authorities have told me.
 
Melchior said:
Have I personally? No I haven’t.

I have personally talked to Canon Lawyers within my diocese, other dioceses, and within Societies of Apostolic Life about these topics. I’ve talked to the founder of a Society of Apostolic Life about the nature of their status within the Church.

No, I do not have “proper authority” in the sense you are speaking. In this case, I am communicating what proper authorities have told me.
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Thank you. So these proper authorities have told you that the FSSP are supposed to celebrate the OF in addition to the EF, if they are needed to do so?
 
Denise1957 said:
Thank you. So these proper authorities have told you that the FSSP are supposed to celebrate the OF in addition to the EF, if they are needed to do so?
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Melchior did not say that. I suggest you reread his post in which he summarized the situation. I thought it was very good.
 
Denise1957 said:
So I take it that you’ve been given the proper authority from the Catholic Church to interpret and implement canon law?
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If this is going to be a big hang-up we need to shut down the L&S board, and this board, because several folks who don’t have “proper authority” talk all the time.

We should even close the finances section, or at least restrict it so only finance people can comment. And I sure hope no one here comments on anything IT related.

This isn’t information I am pulling from a magic hat, this is after years of study and consulting with people who have authority in this, and seeing a Society in action in person for eleven years.
Denise1957 said:
Thank you. So these proper authorities have told you that the FSSP are supposed to celebrate the OF in addition to the EF, if they are needed to do so?
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Yes, because constitutions are not a Rule. There’s a huge difference between a Rule and constitutions.

You can’t outlaw the Ordinary, not on a uniform basis. By making their constitutions say they specialize in the EF, they’re making a very public statement in their preference. People know to not trifle with them in this area.

This why this is all academic. They cannot outlaw what is Ordinary, but in a pastoral sense the FSSP saying the OF should be avoided.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the bishop who ask them to say the OF exclusively or even most of the time. Because you are right to say that would negate the reason for inviting in the FSSP to begin with.

What I understand Tim to be saying is that FSSP priests should be trained to say both Masses and should graciously agree to say the OF when necessary, for example at the Chrism Mass or another special Mass offered by the diocese. Another example that I can think of might be a funeral Mass, or perhaps an instance when a priest needs a replacement an Ordinary Form Mass was already scheduled.

I don’t think there would be many or frequent instances, but simply that a priest who is under the authority of the local Ordinary should do what is requested of him by the Ordinary.
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No, that’s not what I am saying.

Floresco said that saying the OF violates the FSSP constitution. That is simply incorrect because canon law says that members of Societies of Apostolic Life are subject to the bishop in matters of public worship. The FSSP contitution does not say that the cannot say the OF because such a constitution is in violation of canon law. Such a constitution would never be approved by the Holy See.

The FSSP constitution does not prohibit FSSP priests from saying the OF. That is all I am saying.

-Tim-
 
Melchior said:
If this is going to be a big hang-up we need to shut down the L&S board, and this board, because several folks who don’t have “proper authority” talk all the time.

We should even close the finances section, or at least restrict it so only finance people can comment. And I sure hope no one here comments on anything IT related.

This isn’t information I am pulling from a magic hat, this is after years of study and consulting with people who have authority in this, and seeing a Society in action in person for eleven years.

Yes, because constitutions are not a Rule. There’s a huge difference between a Rule and constitutions.

You can’t outlaw the Ordinary, not on a uniform basis. By making their constitutions say they specialize in the EF, they’re making a very public statement in their preference. People know to not trifle with them in this area.

This why this is all academic. They cannot outlaw what is Ordinary, but in a pastoral sense the FSSP saying the OF should be avoided.
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So you have not been told by any proper authority that the FSSP must celebrate the OF if asked. Rather, it’s your opinion, and something that you personally would like to see happen, even though no proper Church authorty has stated that this is necessary. Would this be accurate?
 
Denise1957 said:
So you have not been told by any proper authority that the FSSP must celebrate the OF if asked. Rather, it’s your opinion, and something that you personally would like to see happen, even though no proper Church authorty has stated that this is necessary. Would this be accurate?
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I’m sorry, but where in my posts have I said I want to see this happen? Don’t confuse “it can happen” with “it should happen”.
 
TimothyH said:
No, that’s not what I am saying.

Floresco said that saying the OF violates the FSSP constitution. That is simply incorrect because canon law says that members of Societies of Apostolic Life are subject to the bishop in matters of public worship. The FSSP contitution does not say that the cannot say the OF because such a constitution is in violation of canon law. Such a constitution would never be approved by the Holy See.

The FSSP constitution does not prohibit FSSP priests from saying the OF. That is all I am saying.
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Perhaps, technically, saying the OF is not a violation of the FSSP constitution. It is however against the spirit of the FSSP constitution and it would be imprudent for a bishop to order it.

I have no problem with the way that Melchior has described the situation. Do you agree with his posts on this?
 
Denise1957 said:
Tim, though you would like to see the FSSP forced to celebrate the ordinary form of the Roman Rite, I don’t know of any bishops who want to force the FSSP to do this. The bishops are generally grateful to the FSSP for being able to offer the EF. That is their charism.
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Denise, how in the world did you draw the conclusion that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF???

I never said that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF. I never implied that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF. I never said anything about what I want. Words about what I want are not in any of my posts. Yet somehow, you have drawn the conclusion that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF… :confused:

What I want is not relevant. I assure you that I really have no opinion on whether FSSP priests say the OF or not.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
Denise, how in the world did you draw the conclusion that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF???

I never said that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF. I never implied that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF. I never said anything about what I want. Words about what I want are not in any of my posts. Yet somehow, you have drawn the conclusion that I want FSSP priests to celebrate the OF… :confused:

What I want is not relevant. I assure you that I really have no opinion on whether FSSP priests say the OF or not.

-Tim-
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It’s possible that some people view this as “oh man, they can be forced to celebrate the OF, this will contaminate their Society SOMEONE STOP THIS MADNESS” or think that forcing to celebrate the OF will become the norm.
 
I follow the logic here but it COULD be possible that an FSSP Priest could not know how to celebrate the OF.
 
Moore11 said:
I follow the logic here but it COULD be possible that an FSSP Priest could not know how to celebrate the OF.
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And that ties into the pastoral thing, right? A lot of priests learn Latin but never use it, and as a result they probably shouldn’t be pressed to say the Mass in Latin without learning it first.

Again, the only practical time a Bishop would force the OF to be said by a FSSP is if it was an emergency of some kind.

Another instance could be if a FSSP priest was asked to cover for another priest, I could see him being asked to say the OF instead. Key word there is asked, and the other key thing is the FSSP priest can’t say no due to it being “outlawed” by his group. He’d have to say no for different reasons, like the the one you gave, Moore.

And also again, he can’t be disciplined by the Bishop due to Pontifical Right.
 
Melchior said:
And that ties into the pastoral thing, right? A lot of priests learn Latin but never use it, and as a result they probably shouldn’t be pressed to say the Mass in Latin without learning it first.

Again, the only practical time a Bishop would force the OF to be said by a FSSP is if it was an emergency of some kind.

Another instance could be if a FSSP priest was asked to cover for another priest, I could see him being asked to say the OF instead. Key word there is asked, and the other key thing is the FSSP priest can’t say no due to it being “outlawed” by his group. He’d have to say no for different reasons, like the the one you gave, Moore.

And also again, he can’t be disciplined by the Bishop due to Pontifical Right.
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That makes sense.
 
Melchior said:
And that ties into the pastoral thing, right? A lot of priests learn Latin but never use it, and as a result they probably shouldn’t be pressed to say the Mass in Latin without learning it first.
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There’s more to it than just reading from a Missal. It’s the entire GRIM which even if studied in the seminary, unless you’re practicing the them on a regular basis, you will forget the nuances over time. Even priests who say the OF on a regular basis still have to decide beforehand on options they will be using in their Masses. The EF is simple in many respects, you just place several ribbons in the missal and you’re all set.

And then you have issues with liturgical committees which you don’t have with the EF. :eek:
 
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