Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[Rich_C]

Oh, good heavens, no. For a while, the Evangelical Protestants were (and still are) getting into “lectio divina” and “confessions” and “silence” and “candles” and “Latin” and “chanting”…

The “opponents” claimed that all this stuff was putting Evangelical Protestants in danger of going down the Roman Road.

Anything can be a “fad” if it is unfamiliar to someone. Yes, the Latin Mass has been around for many centuries, but for those who have never experienced it, it is brand new.

I think you mean that its human nature to be enthusiastic at first and to mellow later. That has nothing to do with fads and as a mature Christian you know that the mellowing process has a good form which is the growth of spiritual maturity (the bad form is falling away, like the seeds on hard ground Our Lord spoke of). This process happens not only with fads but with true spirituality, so I don’t agree that the TLM can be just as much a fad as these evagelical experiments you mentioned.

No matter how many traditional Catholic elements they fuse into their services, Evangelicals are still creating novelties (combinations never before seen).

An ancient liturgy is by its nature not a novelty.

 

[JustaServant]

I think you mean that its human nature to be enthusiastic at first and to mellow later. That has nothing to do with fads and as a mature Christian you know that the mellowing process has a good form which is the growth of spiritual maturity (the bad form is falling away, like the seeds on hard ground Our Lord spoke of). This process happens not only with fads but with true spirituality, so I don’t agree that the TLM can be just as much a fad as these evagelical experiments you mentioned.

No matter how many traditional Catholic elements they fuse into their services, Evangelicals are still creating novelties (combinations never before seen).

An ancient liturgy is by its nature not a novelty.

Wow, one busy day and thread has grown…

Anyway. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
On the other hand I think perhaps what Cat is saying might be lost in translation.
When I was on the other side of the Tiber many evangelicals were trying ‘different worship styles’, Emerging church, ancient-future and the like. The smoke and mirrors of the mega-churches burned out pretty quickly and many sought a return to an ordered worship, liturgy.
The problem was they had neither the theology nor the history beneath what they were doing, so they didn’t last very long. Doing liturgy for the sake of liturgy can ALSO burn out if one does not have the purpose behind it: the Eucharist.
Now, in terms of the EF, many radical young trads are simply not old enough to remember the history or the legacy behind it, and are confused about the theology as well. They are champions of the Latin Mass, but when push comes to shove, they allow thier feelings to dictate, instead of reason, theology, and history.
In THAT sense, it can be a fad. Not the TLM, but how and why certain groups attatch themselves to it.
What our Pope is doing is cutting through all the ‘feeling’ nonsense, and putting the EF in its proper place within the liturgy of the Church. In that way, those who understand and appreciate it, will stick with it. And those who are being led by their ‘feelings’ about it will either recieve what the Church is doing, or will fall away like so many burned-evangelicals.
When the OF was introduced many parishes became ‘fadish’ with the OF as well. But since the hippies of that era are now the nearing retirement age, it’s rare to find a parish that celebrates the OF the way they did in the 70s.
Especially with the changes this past year, the now grey-haired Gidget and Moondogie are gonna have a hard time with words like 'Consubstantial" during a folk Mass.

The last sentence was written with tongue in cheek, those overly serious among you, just ignore it

 

[Rich_C]

Wow, one busy day and thread has grown…

Anyway. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
On the other hand I think perhaps what Cat is saying might be lost in translation.
When I was on the other side of the Tiber many evangelicals were trying ‘different worship styles’, Emerging church, ancient-future and the like. The smoke and mirrors of the mega-churches burned out pretty quickly and many sought a return to an ordered worship, liturgy.
The problem was they had neither the theology nor the history beneath what they were doing, so they didn’t last very long. Doing liturgy for the sake of liturgy can ALSO burn out if one does not have the purpose behind it: the Eucharist.
Now, in terms of the EF, many radical young trads are simply not old enough to remember the history or the legacy behind it, and are confused about the theology as well. They are champions of the Latin Mass, but when push comes to shove, they allow thier feelings to dictate, instead of reason, theology, and history.
In THAT sense, it can be a fad. Not the TLM, but how and why certain groups attatch themselves to it.
What our Pope is doing is cutting through all the ‘feeling’ nonsense, and putting the EF in its proper place within the liturgy of the Church. In that way, those who understand and appreciate it, will stick with it. And those who are being led by their ‘feelings’ about it will either recieve what the Church is doing, or will fall away like so many burned-evangelicals.
When the OF was introduced many parishes became ‘fadish’ with the OF as well. But since the hippies of that era are now the nearing retirement age, it’s rare to find a parish that celebrates the OF the way they did in the 70s.
Especially with the changes this past year, the now grey-haired Gidget and Moondogie are gonna have a hard time with words like 'Consubstantial" during a folk Mass.

The last sentence was written with tongue in cheek, those overly serious among you, just ignore it

I substantially agree with your post. If that’s what Cat meant then I substantially agree with her, too.

 

[maryjk]

I think you may be attributing more intent to people’s words than are actually there. If you pull out select, unqualified words from people’s postings, you might be able to twist a conclusion that people don’t like people with small families or single parents at the EF. However, there were qualifications made in the same posting, and in follow-on posts that expressed entirely the opposite view that you seem to have ignored.

Nobody would ever look at someone with a small family at our EF parish in a bad way.Nor would they express any disapproval of a single parent or really anyone. Are you basing your view from actual experience at the EF Mass or stories from others?

We are basing our view on what you and others have said.

If you and others didn’t mean that small families would feel out of place why would you write this?

Anyone with less than 4 children feels out of place at this parish.

Then qualify it with this?

I just meant that a small family would look unusual, because all the families are so large.

I think what happens here is that people make statements about what they like about the EF, but they don’t think about what that says about them.

I am sure you love that everyone seems to have large families at your EF. And that is great. But then you take it a little too far by saying that anyone without a large family would feel out of place. That statement tells anyone with fewer than 4 children that they would feel out of place at that Mass. You then qualified it with that they would only look out of place, but they wouldn’t feel out of place.

Sorry, but that doesn’t sound very welcoming. In fact, it sounds pretty exclusive.

(By the way, I am not a single parent.)

 

[Rich_C]

We are basing our view on what you and others have said.

If you and others didn’t mean that small families would feel out of place why would you write this?

Then qualify it with this?

I think what happens here is that people make statements about what they like about the EF, but they don’t think about what that says about them.

I am sure you love that everyone seems to have large families at your EF. And that is great. But then you take it a little too far by saying that anyone without a large family would feel out of place. That statement tells anyone with fewer than 4 children that they would feel out of place at that Mass. You then qualified it with that they would only look out of place, but they wouldn’t feel out of place.

Sorry, but that doesn’t sound very welcoming. In fact, it sounds pretty exclusive.

(By the way, I am not a single parent.)

Not to get in the middle, but I think its time to admit that you mispoke, 10th Crusader, and Maryjk, I think you’ve made your point that a single line in an Internet post that was partly in jest upset you (which I totally respect). I hope if you’ll take it as no more than that and not let it color your view of millions of people.

/2 cents

 

[thewanderer]

Brendan is defining obedience as Aquinas has defined it.

We must conform our will to the one who has authority. That person is the Vicar of Christ on earth, It is called 'thinking with the mind of the Church". When your thinking differs, it is you who must change your thinking, if you want to be obedient.

When people get on a forum, to rant, grumble, about everything they think is wrong with the Mass, it accomplishes absolutely nothing.

But that was what I tried to point out earlier, if someone looks at the difference between the explicit theological aspects of the EF and theOF and notices certain explicit theological concepts in the EF that are not explicit in the OF and so conclude that the EF is a more complete expression of our faith they are in no way differing from anything the Church tells us to think. How would doing so be a failure in obedience? The problem comes in when people start to think of the OF in a disparaging way because of the differences they notice. It is never ok to show disrespesct to the Great Sacifice of the Mass, no matter what form it comes in, it is still Chrsit’s redemptive sacrifice made re-present here on earth and as such deserves the utmost respect.

 

[Rich_C]

But that was what I tried to point out earlier, if someone looks at the difference between the explicit theological aspects of the EF and theOF and notices certain explicit theological concepts in the EF that are not explicit in the OF and so conclude that the EF is a more complete expression of our faith they are in no way differing from anything the Church tells us to think. How would doing so be a failure in obedience? The problem comes in when people start to think of the OF in a disparaging way because of the differences they notice. It is never ok to show disrespesct to the Great Sacifice of the Mass, no matter what form it comes in, it is still Chrsit’s redemptive sacrifice made re-present here on earth and as such deserves the utmost respect.

Well said.

Also, I think some erroneously people take CAF’s line on things to be the Church’s line.

CAF has made its own prudential judgment to prohibit serious comparing/contrasting of the two forms of the Roman Rite, but that is their judgment to keep their forums civil, not an authoritative guideline for understanding Summorum Pontificum.

 

[clem456]

I wasn’t going to respond to this again publicly but I guess I must.

Very specific statements were posted about priests and their theological ideas about forms of the Mass. That was what was responded to. I was not the only one who noticed. If yhou want to rehash, Please read the specific comments so we are not chasing after phantoms here.

 

[Rich_C]

I wasn’t going to respond to this again publicly but I guess I must.

Very specific statements were posted about priests and their theological ideas about forms of the Mass. That was what was responded to. I was not the only one who noticed. If yhou want to rehash, Please read the specific comments so we are not chasing after phantoms here.

If this is in response to the direction of posts #337 and #337, speaking for myself I was responding to a general attitude here and not your posts.

 

[Cat]

Wow, one busy day and thread has grown…

Anyway. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.
On the other hand I think perhaps what Cat is saying might be lost in translation.
When I was on the other side of the Tiber many evangelicals were trying ‘different worship styles’, Emerging church, ancient-future and the like. The smoke and mirrors of the mega-churches burned out pretty quickly and many sought a return to an ordered worship, liturgy.
The problem was they had neither the theology nor the history beneath what they were doing, so they didn’t last very long. Doing liturgy for the sake of liturgy can ALSO burn out if one does not have the purpose behind it: the Eucharist.
Now, in terms of the EF, many radical young trads are simply not old enough to remember the history or the legacy behind it, and are confused about the theology as well. They are champions of the Latin Mass, but when push comes to shove, they allow thier feelings to dictate, instead of reason, theology, and history.
In THAT sense, it can be a fad. Not the TLM, but how and why certain groups attatch themselves to it.
What our Pope is doing is cutting through all the ‘feeling’ nonsense, and putting the EF in its proper place within the liturgy of the Church. In that way, those who understand and appreciate it, will stick with it. And those who are being led by their ‘feelings’ about it will either recieve what the Church is doing, or will fall away like so many burned-evangelicals.
When the OF was introduced many parishes became ‘fadish’ with the OF as well. But since the hippies of that era are now the nearing retirement age, it’s rare to find a parish that celebrates the OF the way they did in the 70s.
Especially with the changes this past year, the now grey-haired Gidget and Moondogie are gonna have a hard time with words like 'Consubstantial" during a folk Mass.

The last sentence was written with tongue in cheek, those overly serious among you, just ignore it

What a wonderful post! Thank you for expressing this so clearly. I especially like your analysis of what the Holy Father is doing with EF and OF.

Yes, Rich C, this is what I meant. So we agree.

 

[floresco]

Look, I personally prefer to attend the OF, and am more than willing to defend the OF whenever I see somebody attacking it or showing a lack of respect towards it, but floresco has been very careful to clarify exactly what she means so that it is very clear that she means no disrespesct towards the OF. I also do sometimes overreact to people like floresco because I associate certain phrases and thoughts with people who actually do put down the OF, this is all part of the reason why it is so difficult for those who prefer the different forms to have a civil conversation about this topic because there **are **people who put down the OF its easy to associate all those who prefer the EF with them, and then those who prefer the EF but don’t put down the OF get super defensive because they are constantly having people incorrectly assume all sorts of things about their opinions. Its a viscous cycle and we all need to change if we are ever going to be able to break out of it.

This fit in with some thoughts I was having and I quoted it in a new thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=751664

 

[10thCrusader]

While everyone was trying to figure out how to dissect another person’s posts to find something to accuse their neighbor, I think the whole point of thread got missed: That the EF Mass seems to appeal to young people. I said before, isn’t this worth considering?

If you have a teenager or young adult in your family who is drifting away from the Church, maybe the EF Mass would bring them back to the Church. Is it more important that they do it your way, than whether they keep the Faith at all? Is it more important for you to be right?

Or maybe everyone who has posted has children and grandchildren who are totally faithful, and are happily right beside them every Sunday at the OF Mass.

I would really like it if people would drop the whole accusing and confrontational tone, and focus on the merits of the ideas, whether they promote the OF or the EF.

Can we all puh-lease try to be a little less annoyed and a little more charitable? :thankyou:

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I guess I am one of the blessed ones. :getholy: My own children (teens/young adults) are faithful and go to OF Masses.

I don’t remember anyone saying that even if their own children/ cousins/ nephews/ grandchildren were falling away from the faith that they would keep them from attending the EF. What I saw being discussed was the fact that there are plenty of teens and young adults in OF Masses also; that an EF Mass isn’t absolutely required in order to attract young people to the church.

My first post on this thread was one saying how happy I was to hear of another instance of the Church growing. I am happy to hear it!

 

[10thCrusader]

Of course the EF Mass isn’t the only way to get the young people to attend church. However, there is a growing trend towards it. This phenomenon has been observed ever since the EF was more widely available, so it’s not just a passing fad. I have been attending the EF Mass for about 20 years. As I said in my old parish, they got it started right after the* Ecclesia Dei* was issued.

One of the first things I noticed was that many young adult men had a great interest in the EF Mass right from the beginning. I was actually a bit surprised at this initially. Usually the young adult men are about the last people you expect to see at Church, and they are the first to fall away and become non-practicing (generally-speaking!).

Contrary to some people’s assumption, the people who attend the EF do not denigrate the OF. Mostly they talk about how the EF helps their belief in the Real Presence, how it helps them to pray better, how it keeps their focus on God. Mostly they don’t talk at all, due to the meditative nature of the EF. In 20 years of attending the EF, I have only heard a handful of negative comments about the OF (and those were at an SSPX Mass).

Actually, I didn’t appreciate the Clown Mass the held at my old parish a few years back , but that was more of an abuse than the OF itself, so technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.

My wish is: if the EF will help to raise your heart and mind to God, then go to it. If it only reminds you of the “bad old days,” then there are more than enough places to attend the OF. If everyone would pay less attention to the mote in their brother’s eye and more attention to the condition of their own soul, we’d all be a lot better off.

 

[Indyann]

Actually, I didn’t appreciate the Clown Mass the held at my old parish a few years back , but that was more of an abuse than the OF itself, so technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.

Just couldn’t help yourself, could you?

 

[10thCrusader]

10thCrusader;10323240:

Actually, I didn’t appreciate the Clown Mass the held at my old parish a few years back , but that was more of an abuse than the OF itself, so technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.

Just couldn’t help yourself, could you?

And you just can’t help yourself either. Still looking for some point of personal accusation? I guess my words two posts up fell on deaf ears.

Try reading the whole post instead of picking out the parts that you can stab at.

 

[maryjk]

And you just can’t help yourself either. Still looking for some point of personal accusation? I guess my words two posts up fell on deaf ears.

Try reading the whole post instead of picking out the parts that you can stab at.

The point is, it is fine to call for civility, It is not fine to call for civility, for everyone else.

The sentence Indyann quoted wasn’t needed in your comment. Your point would have been made, even more so, without it. So, why did you add it?

Even you felt the need to say “technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.” Okay, not technically, but how about actually?

 

[Indyann]

Indyann;10323374:

And you just can’t help yourself either. Still looking for some point of personal accusation? I guess my words two posts up fell on deaf ears.

Try reading the whole post instead of picking out the parts that you can stab at.

I did read the whole post and thought it was great! I thought maybe it was a wrong perception that most “trads” denigrate the OF. I thought maybe more “trads” were softening in their opinion of those who attend the OF.

Then you had to throw in that zinger to spoil your whole post!

 

[thewanderer]

The point is, it is fine to call for civility, It is not fine to call for civility, for everyone else.

The sentence Indyann quoted wasn’t needed in your comment. Your point would have been made, even more so, without it. So, why did you add it?

Even you felt the need to say “technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.” Okay, not technically, but how about actually?

I have to agree, whether you realize it or not, ‘clown massess’ is another one of those buzz phrases which tend to frustrate those who prefer the OF and make them see whoever uses it as hostile towards the OF. If you want to work for unity and peace between EF and OF goers as Christ desires then you would do well to avoid using this phrase to refer to any OF mass unless it actually had someone come in dressed up as a clown. Otherwise it is just divisive.

 

[10thCrusader]

The point is, it is fine to call for civility, It is not fine to call for civility, for everyone else.

The sentence Indyann quoted wasn’t needed in your comment. Your point would have been made, even more so, without it. So, why did you add it?

Even you felt the need to say “technically I wasn’t denigrating the OF.” Okay, not technically, but how about actually?

It was simple honesty. When it happened, I was very upset, and said some very harsh words. Maybe it’s my inordinate fear of clowns. Other than that, I didn’t have bad things to say about the OF.

Are we supposed to deny that these abuses never happened? Is there such a tight muzzle on people here at CAF? It’s kind of like the Germans who deny all the things that happened in WWII.

But that’s the thing that was focused on - the one negative comment to dredge up another disagreement. If everybody wants to harp on for about 5-6 posts, go ahead. We can de-rail for awhile longer