Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[thewanderer]

It was simple honesty. When it happened, I was very upset, and said some very harsh words. Maybe it’s my inordinate fear of clowns. Other than that, I didn’t have bad things to say about the OF.

Are we supposed to deny that these abuses never happened? Is there such a tight muzzle on people here at CAF? It’s kind of like the Germans who deny all the things that happened in WWII.

But that’s the thing that was focused on - the one negative comment to dredge up another disagreement. If everybody wants to harp on for about 5-6 posts, go ahead. We can de-rail for awhile longer

Wait, you’ve actually been to a real clown mass?

 

[10thCrusader]

Wait, you’ve actually been to a real clown mass?

Yes, I didn’t know it was gong to be that type of Mass, and I have an inordinate fear of clowns. It was very traumatic. :frighten:

In my post, I was trying to point out that I have no problem with the OF itself. It could be very reverent if it is celebrated properly. However, it has been my experience, a reverently celebrated OF is more the exception than the rule.

I have seen a few on EWTN that come close, but most of the OF Masses I have attended are too horribly distracting to permit me a proper spiritual disposition before the Real Presence. Even recently with all the new direction from the Vatican, they still fall short. Apparently, to discuss why I feel they are not celebrated reverently is a Verboten subject on CAF.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes, I didn’t know it was gong to be that type of Mass, and I have an inordinate fear of clowns. It was very traumatic. :frighten:

In my post, I was trying to point out that I have no problem with the OF itself. It could be very reverent if it is celebrated properly. However, it has been my experience, a reverently celebrated OF is more the exception than the rule.

I have seen a few on EWTN that come close, but most of the OF Masses I have attended are too horribly distracting to permit me a proper spiritual disposition before the Real Presence. Even recently with all the new direction from the Vatican, they still fall short. Apparently, to discuss why I feel they are not celebrated reverently is a Verboten subject on CAF.

Crazy, I mean I know they have happened in the past, but even though I have traveled a fair amount I have never seen one, or even heard of anyone who had personally been. I think the reason people reacted so strongly to your post is that since you used the term ‘clown mass’ in such a flippant way it looked as though you were simply using it to mean an OF mass that was not celebrated as you would like it, which tends to be how a lot of people use it rather than to refer to an actual clown mass, like I said in my pp, its different if there was actually a clown present, but when its just tossed around to mean any old aspect of a celebration of Mass that one dislikes, it can be quite offensive. Maybe you should make that clearer the next time you bring it up, to avoid more such misunderstandings, itss just that that is one of those loaded terms which carries a lot of offensive baggage with it.

 

[10thCrusader]

Crazy, I mean I know they have happened in the past, but even though I have traveled a fair amount I have never seen one, or even heard of anyone who had personally been. I think the reason people reacted so strongly to your post is that since you used the term ‘clown mass’ in such a flippant way it looked as though you were simply using it to mean an OF mass that was not celebrated as you would like it, which tends to be how a lot of people use it rather than to refer to an actual clown mass, like I said in my pp, its different if there was actually a clown present, but when its just tossed around to mean any old aspect of a celebration of Mass that one dislikes, it can be quite offensive. Maybe you should make that clearer the next time you bring it up, to avoid more such misunderstandings, itss just that that is one of those loaded terms which carries a lot of offensive baggage with it.

Excuse me, it was clowns (plural), not clown. :frighten: That was about the worst. I didn’t even mind the polka Mass (yes, we had one of those too ). At least the sermon was good at that Mass.

Is it any wonder I’m planning on hiding out in the EF for the rest of my life???

 

[JustaServant]

Crazy, I mean I know they have happened in the past, but even though I have traveled a fair amount I have never seen one, or even heard of anyone who had personally been.

I never have either. They were isolated incidents that happened back in the 70s. To keep citing them makes the person look foolish.

 

[JustaServant]

What a wonderful post! Thank you for expressing this so clearly. I especially like your analysis of what the Holy Father is doing with EF and OF.

Yes, Rich C, this is what I meant. So we agree.

Miracles can happen, we actually agree on something Cat.

 

[Cat]

Wait, you’ve actually been to a real clown mass?

Wowee wow wow. I’m really totally surprised!

If 10thCrusader had photos, it would be awesome! All we usually see of “clown masses” are those few internet photos that looks like they were taken back in the 1970s of that Episcopalian Mass!

Just kidding, of course. But I am truly surprised that any Catholic parish in this day and age would actually have the gall to hold a real clown mass, knowing goood and well that someone will photograph it with their cell phone and post it online. In fact, I’m sorry, 10thCrusader, but I’m a little skeptical (as you may have noticed, that’s one of my personality traits–it’s because I work in a medical laboratory and have a science background). I think that a real clown mass in a real Catholic church (a mass with people dressed up like clowns) would have been photographed by many people and put online by now and we all would have seen it here on CAF. I personally would photograph such a Mass and put it online, and I don’t even how to do that! I would ask the person next to me (no need to keep silence during a clown mass, right?).

IMO, a Catholic church that holds a real clown mass in this internet day and age has massive problems, and I wouldn’t darken the door of that church ever again! **10thCrusader, you need to get out of there! ** If that’s the only Catholic church in your area, I would actually ask the bishop for a dispensation to watch Mass on TV!

Or move to where I am. We were just talking in Bible study the other night about the liturgical correctness and beauty of our OF Masses. One woman said that when she and her husband travel, it’s always scary to see some of the Masses and they always are glad to come home to our “safe” parish!

Seriously, if I lived in a diocese that had such awful Masses, I would move, even if it meant sacrificing a secure job and/or family/friends. That’s a tough way to go through life.

 

[floresco]

Yes, I didn’t know it was gong to be that type of Mass, and I have an inordinate fear of clowns. It was very traumatic. :frighten:

In my post, I was trying to point out that I have no problem with the OF itself. It could be very reverent if it is celebrated properly. However, it has been my experience, a reverently celebrated OF is more the exception than the rule.

I have seen a few on EWTN that come close, but most of the OF Masses I have attended are too horribly distracting to permit me a proper spiritual disposition before the Real Presence. Even recently with all the new direction from the Vatican, they still fall short. Apparently, to discuss why I feel they are not celebrated reverently is a Verboten subject on CAF.

What you are saying is completely in line with the words of Pope Benedict:

Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.

You ought to be bothered by deformation of the liturgy. That is the natural reaction of people who are rooted in the faith of the Church. The Holy Father apparently considers fleeing to the older form as a refuge from deformations to be common and understandable. Talking about deformations of the OF and deploring them is totally in line with the teaching of the Pope. It is clearly a major concern of his.

It is unfortunate that some people have not made a distinction between deformations of the OF and the OF in itself. They have attacked the OF and sometimes even rejected the authority of Magisterium on the basis of the deformations. Due to this history, we need to use great care when condemning deformations to be clear in what we are saying. We must avoid our letting just criticisms of deformations come across as denigration of the OF.

There is a related phenomenon that comes across as denigrating the EF. Some seem to dismiss it as merely a refuge from deformations that will lose its value once the problem of liturgical deformation is eventually resolved. The value of the EF is timeless and not contingent on other events.

 

[jacobhalo]

I’m single and I am well received at the EF. There are other singles there too. When we have a lunch after mass, other large families save a seat for me. I love the EF.

 

[maryjk]

It was simple honesty. When it happened, I was very upset, and said some very harsh words. Maybe it’s my inordinate fear of clowns. Other than that, I didn’t have bad things to say about the OF.

Proof please. Because although there has been talk about such Masses, there hasn’t been talk about them for years and years, and well, years.

There is no way, if this happened recently enough to comment on it, that you or someone else didn’t get pictures. So post them. We are waiting.

Are we supposed to deny that these abuses never happened? Is there such a tight muzzle on people here at CAF? It’s kind of like the Germans who deny all the things that happened in WWII.

EVER happened? Of course not, but to claim they are still happening is ridiculous. And to put such a comment in right after you are calling for civility is, just over the top.

And to compare anyone to Nazi Germany shows you have lost the debate.

But that’s the thing that was focused on - the one negative comment to dredge up another disagreement. If everybody wants to harp on for about 5-6 posts, go ahead. We can de-rail for awhile longer

So, stop posting negative comments. Just stop.

 

[10thCrusader]

Wowee wow wow. I’m really totally surprised!

But I am truly surprised that any Catholic parish in this day and age would actually have the gall to hold a real clown mass, knowing goood and well that someone will photograph it with their cell phone and post it online. In fact, I’m sorry, 10thCrusader, but I’m a little skeptical (as you may have noticed, that’s one of my personality traits–it’s because I work in a medical laboratory and have a science background). I think that a real clown mass in a real Catholic church (a mass with people dressed up like clowns) would have been photographed by many people and put online by now and we all would have seen it here on CAF. I personally would photograph such a Mass and put it online, and I don’t even how to do that! I would ask the person next to me (no need to keep silence during a clown mass, right?).

IMO, a Catholic church that holds a real clown mass in this internet day and age has massive problems, and I wouldn’t darken the door of that church ever again! **10thCrusader, you need to get out of there! ** If that’s the only Catholic church in your area, I would actually ask the bishop for a dispensation to watch Mass on TV!

Or move to where I am. We were just talking in Bible study the other night about the liturgical correctness and beauty of our OF Masses. One woman said that when she and her husband travel, it’s always scary to see some of the Masses and they always are glad to come home to our “safe” parish!

Seriously, if I lived in a diocese that had such awful Masses, I would move, even if it meant sacrificing a secure job and/or family/friends. That’s a tough way to go through life.

As I said, this was a long time ago, and I did get out of that parish. Photos? are you kidding me? I was so shocked it was all I could do to run for the door. It really freaked me out. I was just numb. The sad thing is my old parish did weird things like this all the time, so nobody would think about taking a photo, because it was nothing special.

Anyway, the EF got going a little bit after that, so I just go the the EF now. If the OF would:

• Celebrate Ad Orientem (facing away from the people)
• Omit the highly distracting optional “sign of peace,” (or move it to the beginning end of Mass)
• Include sung Latin responses
• Make liberal use of Gregorian, as was requested in the instruction on the OF

I think you would find fewer people running away to the EF to get some peace and quiet. However, if you still insist on buying that schlocky music from OCP, I think the youth will keep fleeing the 1970’s era Masses.

 

[maryjk]

As I said, this was a long time ago, and I did get out of that parish. Photos? are you kidding me? I was so shocked it was all I could do to run for the door. It really freaked me out. I was just numb. The sad thing is my old parish did weird things like this all the time, so nobody would think about taking a photo, because it was nothing special.

Get over it. If it was that long ago, move on. And please stop equating EVERY OF Mass with that one Mass you remember.

Anyway, the EF got going a little bit after that, so I just go the the EF now. If the OF would:

• Celebrate Ad Orientem (facing away from the people)
• Omit the highly distracting optional “sign of peace,” (or move it to the beginning end of Mass)
• Include sung Latin responses
• Make liberal use of Gregorian, as was requested in the instruction on the OF

I think you would find fewer people running away to the EF to get some peace and quiet. However, if you still insist on buying that schlocky music from OCP, I think the youth will keep fleeing the 1970’s era Masses.

You really can’t help yourself, can you? It seems impossible for you to post here WITHOUT taking some swipe at the OF.

And although the blogger in the OP feels young people are fleeing to the EF, I don’t agree. Our local parish has overflowing Masses with lots of young people. In fact, the young people flock here. To a reverent OF Mass. And so far, there hasn’t been anyone petitioning for an EF Mass.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

As I said, this was a long time ago, and I did get out of that parish. Photos? are you kidding me? I was so shocked it was all I could do to run for the door. It really freaked me out. I was just numb. The sad thing is my old parish did weird things like this all the time, so nobody would think about taking a photo, because it was nothing special.

Anyway, the EF got going a little bit after that, so I just go the the EF now. If the OF would:

• Celebrate Ad Orientem (facing away from the people)
• Omit the highly distracting optional “sign of peace,” (or move it to the beginning end of Mass)
• Include sung Latin responses
• Make liberal use of Gregorian, as was requested in the instruction on the OF

I think you would find fewer people running away to the EF to get some peace and quiet. However, if you still insist on buying that schlocky music from OCP, I think the youth will keep fleeing the 1970’s era Masses.

Oh My! There are reverant OF Masses that still don’t follow your list. There is a place between a schola and schlocky music. Please try to post without being insulting.

Many of us here have described OF Masses - entire parishes and dioceses full of them, that have young adults, that aren’t “70s era”. Please believe that they exist and there is something beyond your experience.

 

[JustaServant]

Are we supposed to deny that these abuses never happened? Is there such a tight muzzle on people here at CAF? It’s kind of like the Germans who deny all the things that happened in WWII.

I think comparing the Holocaust to clown Mass is a bit of a stretch don’tcha think?

 

[floresco]

So, stop posting negative comments. Just stop.

It is not reasonable to demand that people not make negative comments about deformations of the OF. The Pope himself does so.

Nor is it reasonable to demand that people not talk about how deformations of the OF can lead people of the EF. The Pope himself says this.

 

[floresco]

I think comparing the Holocaust to clown Mass is a bit of a stretch don’tcha think?

He was comparing one denial of history to another denial of history. There is a similarity.

 

[Moore11]

I am shocked by the lack of charity toward a poster. basically some are calling him a liar.

 

[Esrb99]

Reverent OF’s exist. Here’s St. Mary of Victories in St. Louis MO, which has a latin Novus Ordo every sunday, with gregorian propers and a latin ordinary, all ad orientem.

Also, almost all the masses in the major basilicas in Rome are ad orientem, especially in St. Peter’s. I saw three priests celebrating mass side by side at altars- two were celebrating the old mass, one the new-all ad orientem.

 

[floresco]

Reverent OF’s exist. Here’s St. Mary of Victories in St. Louis MO, which has a latin Novus Ordo every sunday, with gregorian propers and a latin ordinary, all ad orientem.

I do not deny that correctly done OFs exist but, in my experience, they are not the norm. Depending on where one lives, it might not be practical to attend one. It is not denigrating the OF to face this reality.

 

[thewanderer]

It is not reasonable to demand that people not make negative comments about deformations of the OF. The Pope himself does so.

Nor is it reasonable to demand that people not talk about how deformations of the OF can lead people of the EF. The Pope himself says this.

Well, I have to say, he did just claim that any OF mass that is not ad orientem is deformed. Yes, that is not what was originally planned, but it is hardly something which deforms the Mass.