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Nicea325
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Oh by all means,I understand your position. I am not trying to pick a fight…please forgive me if I came across rude?
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Phemie
Guest
Don’t worry, I reacted with the ‘too lazy’ line myself.
It has always bothered me that when the Catholic school system in this province was dismantled, leaving only 3 private schools located hundreds of miles apart, not one teacher from the Catholic schools volunteered to help with catechesis in the parish. The only teacher who helped was a Catholic woman who worked in the non-Catholic system (we had no public schools, all were religion based) and she’d already been doing sacramental preparation for the kids who didn’t attend the Catholic schools.
Other than that one teacher, it was left entirely to untrained volunteers who for the first 2 years, with the help of the diocesan coordinator, tried to get a sense of what they were supposed to do. Those women moved away and it became the exclusive purview of that lone teacher with me filling in if she was unavailable for a class.
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puzzleannie
Guest
it is not being “lazy” to protest that one school year does not seem enough time to teach what candidates are expected to know for 2 or 3 sacraments, since it is not enough time. even RCIA insists the actual catechumenate should be a minimum of one calendar year, from Easter to the following Lent, and that extensive mystagogy, a full year by preference, after Easter on the meaning and implications of the sacraments received should follow. That means, if anyone was actually doing what the Rite calls for, 3 full calendar years of participation in formal faith formation, and hopefully ongoing study after that, no matter what the age of the catechumen.
every textbook series I know of, and I know most of them, expects the first year text to introduce, at the given age level, fundamentals of the creed-Creation, the Trinity, fall of man and promise of salvation, the second year to present the essentials of confesson and Eucharist and the Mass, and so on, and that confirmation preparation be a full year after completion of 6 to 8 years at least of formal RE.
In this diocese the synod in 2006 makes it law that preparation for first communion is 2 years, following an initial year of formation, with confession in the 2nd year, first communion in the 3rd year.
so no, a catechist is not being unreasonable to object to the expectation that he or she prepare a class for 2 or 3 sacraments in one year.
every textbook series I know of, and I know most of them, expects the first year text to introduce, at the given age level, fundamentals of the creed-Creation, the Trinity, fall of man and promise of salvation, the second year to present the essentials of confesson and Eucharist and the Mass, and so on, and that confirmation preparation be a full year after completion of 6 to 8 years at least of formal RE.
In this diocese the synod in 2006 makes it law that preparation for first communion is 2 years, following an initial year of formation, with confession in the 2nd year, first communion in the 3rd year.
so no, a catechist is not being unreasonable to object to the expectation that he or she prepare a class for 2 or 3 sacraments in one year.
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archangel04
Guest
No different over here, I am teacher for Confirmation and classes started about 3 weeks ago. First think I asked the class was who was here because they were forced, I think almost everyone raised their hand, maybe 3 people did not raise their hand. I figure that was the case and I was not surprised at all. Later I asked to be real honest with me and asked them why do they find their Church so boring? Some of the said that the most boring about the Church is the mass! I asked why, some said the music, the priest talking too much, the standing and sitting like if it was a game. I will be honest I was not surprised they said that the most boring thing about our Church is the mass, not because I feel we should add more hippie happy up-beat music, but because we have lost the meaning of what the mass truly is.
I told the kids that there first assignment was to go home and for those who did not want to be there to man/woman up and tell their parents they no longer want to be part of the class. In my dioceses a kid can be registered and only show up to one class and still be confirmed if they show up to the confirmation. The Bishop stated that we cannot deny confirmation to anyone, how sad! Someone does an important act like this out of ignorance, not really knowing the true purpose or meaning.
I told the kids that there first assignment was to go home and for those who did not want to be there to man/woman up and tell their parents they no longer want to be part of the class. In my dioceses a kid can be registered and only show up to one class and still be confirmed if they show up to the confirmation. The Bishop stated that we cannot deny confirmation to anyone, how sad! Someone does an important act like this out of ignorance, not really knowing the true purpose or meaning.
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Phemie
Guest
I don’t really have a problem with the bishop’s decision since we confirm infants in danger of death so knowledge and understanding are not a requirement. It’s about what the sacrament does, not about what you do to receive this sacrament.
Note that we don’t give infants Communion since in the Latin Church they have to understand who they are receiving and be able to do so with reverence.
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uxordepp
Guest
"every textbook series I know of, and I know most of them, expects the first year text to introduce, at the given age level, fundamentals of the creed-Creation, the Trinity, fall of man and promise of salvation, the second year to present the essentials of confesson and Eucharist and the Mass, and so on, and that confirmation preparation be a full year after completion of 6 to 8 years at least of formal RE.
In this diocese the synod in 2006 makes it law that preparation for first communion is 2 years, following an initial year of formation, with confession in the 2nd year, first communion in the 3rd year."
I taught RCIA for several years and I don’t recall ever seeing a time-line laid out by the Church itself.
In our diocese, which is highly mobile, if we expected a three year prep time for ANYTHING…nothing would ever be finished. Your diocesan rules are fine, as these things are at the discretion of the Bishop, but they are beyond what I am aware that the Church requires.
I think I fall into the “Do the initiation sacraments all at once” camp. At the very least, I feel increasingly that the RCIA model should be used.
I think it’s a travesty that so many of our adult Catholics are not confirmed. I have actually taught several Catholics as part of our RCIA program (not strictly permitted, but in our small parish, our resources are limited). I can only guess how many are attending Mass who have not been confirmed.
In this diocese the synod in 2006 makes it law that preparation for first communion is 2 years, following an initial year of formation, with confession in the 2nd year, first communion in the 3rd year."
I taught RCIA for several years and I don’t recall ever seeing a time-line laid out by the Church itself.
In our diocese, which is highly mobile, if we expected a three year prep time for ANYTHING…nothing would ever be finished. Your diocesan rules are fine, as these things are at the discretion of the Bishop, but they are beyond what I am aware that the Church requires.
I think I fall into the “Do the initiation sacraments all at once” camp. At the very least, I feel increasingly that the RCIA model should be used.
I think it’s a travesty that so many of our adult Catholics are not confirmed. I have actually taught several Catholics as part of our RCIA program (not strictly permitted, but in our small parish, our resources are limited). I can only guess how many are attending Mass who have not been confirmed.
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Phemie
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I don’t know about most parishes in our diocese, but I’ve talked to a couple of pastors and the only RE in their parishes, like in mine, is sacramental preparation. That ranges from a form of “Liturgy of the Word” with workbooks for 20 minutes every Sunday during Mass to 6 sessions with parents and children for 1.5-2 hours each time. No RE classes other than that. So once they’ve received their First Communion there will be nothing until they start to prepare for Confirmation.
We tried home-based catechesis but only one family showed any interest, and the process was probably talking down to them since I’d say that is the most catechized family in the parish based on conversations with the dad. Needless to say they hail from another country, another continent even.
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GwenL
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Puzzleannie, if this is true, I wonder therefore how the Church justifies CCC 1309: *"**Preparation for Confirmation *should aim at leading the Christian toward a more intimate union with Christ and a more lively familiarity with the Holy Spirit - his actions, his gifts, and his biddings - in order to be more capable of assuming the apostolic responsibilities of Christian life. To this end catechesis for Confirmation should strive to awaken a sense of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ, the universal Church as well as the parish community. The latter bears special responsibility for the preparation of confirmands."
Why would the Church call for preparation of a specific type if there was no justification for preparation?
CCC also states:
*1318 In the East this sacrament is administered immediately after Baptism and is followed by participation in the Eucharist; this tradition highlights the unity of the three sacraments of Christian initiation. In the Latin Church this sacrament is administered when the **age of reason **has been reached, and its celebration is ordinarily reserved to the bishop, thus signifying that this sacrament strengthens the ecclesial bond. *
*1319 A candidate for Confirmation who has attained the age of reason must profess the faith, be in the state of grace, have the intention of receiving the sacrament, and be prepared to assume the role of disciple and witness to Christ, both within the ecclesial community and in temporal affairs. *
It would seem to me that, past the age of reason, you cannot receive the sacrament unless you have the intention to receive it. A rebellious teenager, forced to sit in class by parents, who does not want to be confirmed, won’t receive the graces of the sacrament, I think. The Holy Spirit is not going to force himself on someone who doesn’t want it, is He? The confirmandi who doesn’t intend confirmation pays the price in the end, because if we force him to sit through it, he can not repeat the sacrament if he should actually experience a reconversion at some later date.
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MarianD
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I asked some girl I know why she was getting confirmed. We’re getting confirmed on the same day, except she’s in CCD and I’m in RCIA because I’m a convert and 2 years older than the CCD age group.
She told me that she and mostly everyone else in the CCD class is getting confirmed because they’ve spent their entire lives at the parish and attending Catholic classes, so they’d feel like they wasted so many years if they don’t take the final step into Confirmation. It’s less of a thing about wanting to be Catholic (even though they all want to be Catholic according to her) and more of a “If I don’t get confirmed, I would have wasted a couple of years of my life” thing.
If you ask me, CCD itself is lacking. They don’t teach how to defend the faith and they don’t teach the specifics. That’s why so many Cradle Catholics that I know are very ignorant of their faith.
She told me that she and mostly everyone else in the CCD class is getting confirmed because they’ve spent their entire lives at the parish and attending Catholic classes, so they’d feel like they wasted so many years if they don’t take the final step into Confirmation. It’s less of a thing about wanting to be Catholic (even though they all want to be Catholic according to her) and more of a “If I don’t get confirmed, I would have wasted a couple of years of my life” thing.
If you ask me, CCD itself is lacking. They don’t teach how to defend the faith and they don’t teach the specifics. That’s why so many Cradle Catholics that I know are very ignorant of their faith.
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puzzleannie
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note the difference between history of confirmation in the Eastern vs Western churches, and that the “age of reason” distinction arises from that difference.
if the age of confirmation is delayed to the age of reason, as is Eucharist in the West, then yes, an adequate preparation is mandated.
the same requirement of readiness and disposition apply to non-CAtholic adults (anyone over the age of reason) seeking to enter the Church.
OP is asking about the theology of confirmation as a sacrament of initiation, and since there is a long-standing practice of confirming (and communicating) infants in the East at the time of baptism, it follows that the inherent theology of either sacrament does not absolutely demand “preparation” and “proper disposition” on the part of the recipient. The necessity for that arises when initiation is delayed beyond infancy, for whatever reason.
As the date for completing initiation is for now, in the WEst, age of reason or beyond, I am seeking a theological (not job security for DREs) justification for delaying it beyond the age for first communion.
we are placed in the position every year about this time–as I was this morning at our parent meeting–of having to justify the concurrent practice of confirming 3rd & 4th graders who will enter the Church at Easter, while the baptized Catholic youth have their Confirmation delayed to 10th grade. If the Children’s Catechument provides, as it clearly does, that those children over the age of reason who are baptized must complete their sacramental initiation at the same time, the justification looses a lot of zing when we have to say “because the bishop says so.”
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GwenL
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According to the Catechism of the Council of Trent,
I think this is a theological reason. You may not agree with it, but it’s a reasonable proposition from which to start.
- “Here it is to be observed, that, after Baptism, the Sacrament of Confirmation may indeed be administered to all; but that, until children shall have attained the use of reason, its administration is inexpedient. If it does not seem well to defer (Confirmation) to the age of twelve, it is most proper to postpone this Sacrament at least to that of seven years.”
I think this is a theological reason. You may not agree with it, but it’s a reasonable proposition from which to start.
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Bl_Pope_Pius_IX
Guest
I received Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation all at once. My parents did not seek to have me baptized as an infant (my mother being a Protestant). Strangely, it was I, at seven years old, who asked my father if I could join the Church. My father is not a practicing Catholic, as he was divorced and can no longer receive the most Blessed Sacrament.
Orginally, when I approached the Priest at my Parish, I had the intention of receiving Baptism, and Baptism only. I was then approached, a week later and asked if I wanted to receive First Holy Communion and Confirmation, not knowing what the latter was, I still accepted, told my father who was confused to say the least.
On Easter Vigil, I received all three sacraments at once, though even stranger was that I received it alone. I was the only one to receive the sacraments. I do not really understand why, even now in my teenage years, and I am held in jealousy by my classmates both for the youthful age of receiving the sacraments but also because my classes to receive them were shorter than theirs.
I am now a very devout Roman Catholic Altar Boy who has already decided to become a Priest out of High School. Something MUST have gone right.
Orginally, when I approached the Priest at my Parish, I had the intention of receiving Baptism, and Baptism only. I was then approached, a week later and asked if I wanted to receive First Holy Communion and Confirmation, not knowing what the latter was, I still accepted, told my father who was confused to say the least.
On Easter Vigil, I received all three sacraments at once, though even stranger was that I received it alone. I was the only one to receive the sacraments. I do not really understand why, even now in my teenage years, and I am held in jealousy by my classmates both for the youthful age of receiving the sacraments but also because my classes to receive them were shorter than theirs.
I am now a very devout Roman Catholic Altar Boy who has already decided to become a Priest out of High School. Something MUST have gone right.
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MarianD
Guest
You’re definitely blessed by God. You certainly have been called by Him to a higher level of holiness and to a position of leadership in His Church.
Please note, Pius here is from the Archdiocese of Boston, i.e. MY diocese, We do things right over here
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Bl_Pope_Pius_IX
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Thank you, although the only bad thing I have found from receiving the three sacraments at once is that until I learned about the Sacraments seperately, I did not know which was which! Though this could easily be corrected by more classes.You’re definitely blessed by God. You certainly have been called by Him to a higher level of holiness and to a position of leadership in His Church.
Please note, Pius here is from the Archdiocese of Boston, i.e. MY diocese, We do things right over here
I also cannot agree more about how the Archdiocese of Boston does things right (though it wouldn’t hurt for a tiny bit more tradition).
God Bless you!
- Pius :shamrock2:
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HAnne
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Pius ~
I can’t thank you enough for writing this. I grew up outside the Catholic Church and after talking to Catholics understood that my son (7) would have First Reconciliation and First Eucharist this year since my husband has decided to return to the Catholic Church and I was feeling a calling to RCIA. I was okay with that.
Imagine my extreme surprise this evening at our first Sacramental Prep meeting that we will also be adding Confirmation to the list!!! And our entire program is home-education based meeting only once every 2-3 weeks for “follow up and clarity”!!!
The poor confused “not even a Catholic yet” in the room had eyes the size of saucers!!!
Hearing that this was such a positive experience for you and how you have grown in the faith helps this poor Mom in the sticks to understand that perhaps this IS a good way.
Blessings and Peace on your journey with Christ!
~ Heather
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