Youth worker at parish getting vasectomy

[vocatio]

Now on the lighter side:
I think you should inform your Bishop and Pastor that you and your hubby are going to perform a vasectamy and tubaligation check to insure that no one is closing themselves off to life That would not be nice would it?

 

[mark_a]

My dh just told me that a coworker of his told him that he is getting a vasectomy. However, he is Catholic, and a youth worker at the parish where my son attends school.

The thing is, we are not Catholic (I’m looking into RCIA), and I’ve only gone to mass at this parish a few times. I don’t really feel comfortable going to the priest and saying “hey, let’s talk about sex and the youth worker,” ya know.

What bothers me the most is that he is a youth worker (not the main youth director) and his wife is a catechist at the parish. They both work in Catholic education, and will have influence over youth at the most vulnerable time of their lives. What will they say to a young person who comes to them with a problem dealing with sex, having children, etc, if they don’t follow Church teachings?

How should I handle this, or should I?

oneseeker

Approach this as if there’s a million-to-one chance he doesn’t know better. Let his pastor know.

And by the way. Thanks for caring enough about us Catholics.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

[vocatio]

Practical:
The man who told his wife probably did not do right to begin with. This is how destructive rumors begin. We’ve been scandalized as well while we were members of the church of Christ. Someone tells one person who in turn tells another. ect. etc. In essence we were disfellowshiped over a lie or misinterpretation of our words and actions; however, anticipating the disfellowship, I acosted the elders via letter for backing us into a corner that brought wrongful scandal to my wife and me and for allowing it the reach this point and so I resigned our membership from under their authority to save face from their uncharitable method of dealing with people. We then went on a life long journey that ultimately brought us home to the Catholic Church where scandalizing others is considered sinful NO MATTER WHAT.

Let me ask this. Is this what we should do to our priests that fall into a mortal sin? How many priests have consecrated the Eucharist while in the state of mortal sin? I bet there have been thousands upon thousands over the years. How many receive under mortal sin? I bet millions upon millions. Not to justify, but to create an illustration to kick around before we begin to act so dog-goned self-righteous. This is actually a private matter ub spite of what you think.:tsktsk: This could end up being a major law suit against you and your husband, especially if your husband has any supervisory authority over the man if I’m right about privacy laws. It would seem that your husband is not a man worthy to confide in or you are not dealing properly with your spouse’s ability to confide in you. Hurt a little? :console: Sorry… I’m just giving a painful illustation to further my point. I wasb;t so charitable after being scandalized by others in my history whether true or not. Should I have gone public with the priest tha made a pascs on me? Not being Catholic you’d probably say yes. Well, we Catholics are not supposed to be so uncharibable. The recent scandals have backed priests against the walls as if the clergy are only organization guilty of having sick people among their numbers. This doesn’t take into consideration the nature of the sin. One is a private sin…the other well is not so private when going around hurting others. No I believe you and your husband will have to live with this knowledge for the rest of your life. Take it to the priest in confession… I am praying that you do the right thing. Has it occured to you what this would do the the man’s wife and children? SINFULLY scandalous…shame for even thinking of doing such a thing. And any I dot that condones acting upon this by approaching anyone other than the man first is not truly a transformed Christian much less a transformed Catholic.

Here’s another scenario that I can identify with since I’ve been surrounded by so many people with mental illness in the form of depression. What if the man is bipolar? What if he has other illnesses or major fears of things unspoken of in our society? The point is that to approach anyone else other than someone not in line with his volunteer ministry would just be sinful. If you knew what happened to me or my wife and you went down that road you’d probably be pouring coals on top of your own head not realizing the fear our decisions have caused us to take.

???What if I discover that this is in fact NOT THE PROPER way to do this…I discover publc news on this and then apppraoch your bishop with knowledge that you are spreading scandal on a Catholic board…??? I think that would be similar to what you are doing. You gonna hog tie em and drag em behind your horse. …welcome to the world my wife and I left last year. You spiritual guidance not gossip practice.

 

[vocatio]

Okay…oneseeker…I was not trying to look like I was yelling at you… That is perception only… Never have been good at posting. But I wanted to make sure you knew that this was not your place to carry to the highest court of the land… I came out of a very harsh …not shy to scandalize anyone… I’ve seen teens berated into nothing but worthless human beings in a very Southern Baptist country church by the preacher from the pulpit calling names… This felt like a flash of that to me… My convert wife also fetlt the same way about this. So I’m not speaking as one hear. Obviously others think I had a point. Those that don’t obviously do not know the teachings of the Church on these kinds of things. Like I said. Having been scandalized over things that were true, but were the mortal sin of another priest had a devistating effect on my vocation and thus running away from Catholicism… Don’t be the Devels advocate … I believe you get it now. But there are others that do not. My reputation was smeared over something a priest tried to do to me…not the other way around. But the scandal still stuck. I struggle everyday konwing that I should have continued my vocation to the priesthood… But you not being Catholic yet may not quite understand what that means yet. I hope your journey is much more peaceful than experiencing this scandal. Shame on your husbands coworker. He may be one of the jerks, cafateria Catholics…there are soooooooo many of them… PLEASE continue with RCIA…the Catholic Church despirately needs concerned people like you that believe in the teachings and actually practice them. But be careful not to scandalize someone even with good intension not just for the sinful nature of it but for whom the pain may not be intended. I have far worst stories that I will never expose on this board so as not to scandalize those whom I know and those whom I love. It’s horrible…but we were never told it would be easy.

Please accept my sincere apologies… I was think of that knucklehead’s children and maybe his wife.

Peace and have a wonderful Christmas.

Mark.

 

[Cathy]

I’d like to say that I believe you are wise to seek counsel of other Catholics on this matter. Since you do not disclose names or locations, I don’t see anything sinful or scandalous about your question on this forum. If there were still hope of preventing his error, I think you might be obliged to perform the spiritual work of mercy which is “informing the ignorant” by speaking directly to him, according to Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 18:15 and following. I wish someone had done me that favor before I made the same mistake. I felt bullied into the decision by my doctor and an in-law.

As a convert myself, I do have to remind myself that charity comes first, especially in the very delicate task of admonishing sinners (another spiritual work of mercy). But charity includes not wanting our friends, family members nor acquaintances, nor our enemies to lose their souls.

If there is a Respect Life group in your parish, or even if there isn’t, you might try going to the Pro-Life pages of www.usccb.org and see what resources you might buy for your parish to help inform the ignorant there. Perhaps your pastor would be willing to pay for fliers, and you wouldn’t have to name any names, but the message would get out to the people. USCCB has some very good pro-life material for parish distribution, and priests like it because it’s approved by the bishops, which covers them in case they’re criticized by pro-abortion or pro-contraception parishioners.

 

[dconstruct]

I’m sorry, but I don’t interpret this as a moral issue at all.

The man in question works with children at a church. Why is he talking to these children about his vasectomy?

Are there girls in this church group? Is he trying to covertly make the point that having sex with him won’t get one of his charges pregnant? If this some sort of a come-on?

If any of those questions seems even REMOTELY fair, then he should not be working with these kids any more, at all. Why? Because the Church does not need anyone asking questions like this about anyone associated with Catholic Youth programs.

It’s a Youth program: he could talk about ethics and morality. He could talk about social justice; he could talk about the catholic belief in the holy obligation to serve others. But no; he wants to talk about the surgical procedure which disabled his ability to inseminate a woman when he ejaculates.

This guy needs to be fired; if not for being immoral, then just for being stupid and insensitive and inappropriate. People lose their jobs behind stuff like that all the time…and for good reason.

 

[mesquite_magic]

I’m sorry, but I don’t interpret this as a moral issue at all.

The man in question works with children at a church. Why is he talking to these children about his vasectomy?

Are there girls in this church group? Is he trying to covertly make the point that having sex with him won’t get one of his charges pregnant? If this some sort of a come-on?

If any of those questions seems even REMOTELY fair, then he should not be working with these kids any more, at all. Why? Because the Church does not need anyone asking questions like this about anyone associated with Catholic Youth programs.

It’s a Youth program: he could talk about ethics and morality. He could talk about social justice; he could talk about the catholic belief in the holy obligation to serve others. But no; he wants to talk about the surgical procedure which disabled his ability to inseminate a woman when he ejaculates.

This guy needs to be fired; if not for being immoral, then just for being stupid and insensitive and inappropriate. People lose their jobs behind stuff like that all the time…and for good reason.

You might want to go back and read the entire thread. The OP said that this man works with her husband outside of the Catholic Church. He spoke to her husband about it, not to the children.

Though the OP doesn’t say it, it sounds as if this man is a volunteer with the Youth Group. He is not the Youth Minister. Therefore he couldn’t be fired per se, though he could be asked to quit volunteering.

Perhaps this man and his wife aren’t aware of Church teachings on this matter. I know that given their volunteer status, they should, but it isn’t unusual for them not to. Many cradle Catholics aren’t as well schooled in Catacisim as we’d like to be. That’s why I started coming to CA, because there are many things I wasn’t aware of in my religion.

At any rate, OP, I don’t know how to answer your delema. It sounds as though this story was told in confidance to your husband. He probably shouldn’t have told it to you. As someone thinking about becoming Catholic, your husband could have used this as a learning situation of both him and the other man. maybe he could have asked something like, “oh, I thought Catholics weren’t supposed to get vasectomys”. Then he and the man could have talked about their understanding on being Catholic. Um, that is, if they had the time to have that kind of discussion.

Kim

 

[mark_a]

As someone thinking about becoming Catholic, your husband could have used this as a learning situation of both him and the other man. maybe he could have asked something like, “oh, I thought Catholics weren’t supposed to get vasectomys”. Then he and the man could have talked about their understanding on being Catholic. Um, that is, if they had the time to have that kind of discussion.

Kim

This is not a bad idea. Wouldn’t it be great if a man *thinking *about becoming Catholic could educate a Catholic educator?

 

[THurifer2]

Having a vasectomy is grave as far as the act is concerned but it is not necessarily a mortal sin unless there is the knowledge of gravity and full consent. This is so commonly misunderstood that I felt the need to clarify. There is no act that is a “mortal sin”. An act can be grave matter and lead to mortal sin given the three “requirements”, if you will.

Anyway back to the topic at hand…

The person does not have to know what gave matter is…they do have to know that it was more than just a little bad.The Catechism (see CCC 1859) says hardness of heart is not an excuse. We are responsible for forming our consciences. A properly formed conscience will prevent hardness of heart.

 

[mesquite_magic]

This is not a bad idea. Wouldn’t it be great if a man *thinking *about becoming Catholic could educate a Catholic educator?

Maybe I used the wrong wording. What I was thinking was, "gee insted of being a gossipy little girl who runs and tattles to his wife about the BAD Catholic, maybe he could TALK to the guy. You know, MAN to MAN.

I guess it’s better to read the wrong things into this man’s objectives. It’s SO much better to believe the man is getting a vasectomy in order to seduce teen girls.Let’s encourage the poster to run tattle to his priest. Get him “fired” because he’s such a rotten Catholic. Because, you know, every one of us is so educated in our religion that we would NEVER do something wrong, right?

I was trying to censor myself. Well, now you know what I really wanted to say. Guess I won’t be censoring myself anymore. I wouldn’t want anyone to mistake what I’m saying.

Kim

 

[crowonsnow]

I’m not giving advice here, just making some observations.

Observation number one is that many of my friends who are catholic and who are married with children have opted to tie their tubes or have vasectomies to prevent their having more children. So it may be a catholic teaching that this is a bad thing, but it sure doesn’t appear so from outside this religion.

Also, I’m not aware of any of these couples or their kids having any problems in their parishes. They still raise their kids catholic, still support their parishes, and the parishes still take their donations. Many of them have their kids enrolled in catholic schools.

So I’m just saying that if it was really that big a deal there would be some fireworks. From my vantage point it doesn’t appear to be a big deal or even a deal of any kind at all. It seems to be an acceptable practice.

 

[rlg94086]

I’m not giving advice here, just making some observations.

Observation number one is that many of my friends who are catholic and who are married with children have opted to tie their tubes or have vasectomies to prevent their having more children. So it may be a catholic teaching that this is a bad thing, but it sure doesn’t appear so from outside this religion.

Also, I’m not aware of any of these couples or their kids having any problems in their parishes. They still raise their kids catholic, still support their parishes, and the parishes still take their donations. Many of them have their kids enrolled in catholic schools.

So I’m just saying that if it was really that big a deal there would be some fireworks. From my vantage point it doesn’t appear to be a big deal or even a deal of any kind at all. It seems to be an acceptable practice.

A couple of observations on your observations.

1. No one is going to know that someone got their tubes tied or had a vasectomy unless they tell them, so I’m not sure how you expect the “fireworks” to come about. Also, if they have confessed, then they were forgiven. They wouldn’t be forever punished by their parish for a past sin.
2. I have no idea what sampling of Catholics you are representing or what their parishes are like. There are priests who will reinforce Church teaching regarding artificial birth control and sterilzation, and there are priests that will hardly ever (if ever) mention it.
3. Sterilization is a sin, and it requires contrite confession and absolution. If the people you mentioned knew it was a sin and did it anyway, they committed a mortal sin. The fireworks may happen after they die, if they never confess and receive absolution.
4. Sinning is one thing, it is an added scandal for someone to teach that such sin is okay to other Catholics…not that it happened in this case.

 

[crowonsnow]

A couple of observations on your observations.

1. No one is going to know that someone got their tubes tied or had a vasectomy unless they tell them, so I’m not sure how you expect the “fireworks” to come about. Also, if they have confessed, then they were forgiven. They wouldn’t be forever punished by their parish for a past sin.
2. I have no idea what sampling of Catholics you are representing or what their parishes are like. There are priests who will reinforce Church teaching regarding artificial birth control and sterilzation, and there are priests that will hardly ever (if ever) mention it.

Thanks for the response.

I can’t imagine their priests not being aware that these things are common in their parishes. You’d have to be out of touch to the point of being negligent to not be aware, so I think they’re aware.

A related question that occurs to me is whether these priests who turn a blind eye are also guilty of mortal sin. What do you think?

 

[HouseArrest]

I would suggest your husband ask the guy why he told him that. If I were your husband I would say to the guy that the information puts him in a very awkward position, because after all, isn’t that against church teaching?

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks for the response.

I can’t imagine their priests not being aware that these things are common in their parishes. You’d have to be out of touch to the point of being negligent to not be aware, so I think they’re aware.

A related question that occurs to me is whether these priests who turn a blind eye are also guilty of mortal sin. What do you think?

I think you don’t understand a priest’s role.

Who says they are “turning a blind eye?” Either they don’t know because they haven’t been told (they aren’t psychic), or they have given the individuals absolution because they confessed (as far as the priest knows, they were contrite…again, he isn’t psychic). It has no bearing whatsoever on whether the priest himself has been guilty of mortal sin. Also, in case you aren’t aware, it is possible for a priest to commit mortal sin, ask for forgiveness, and receive absolution. They are human beings.

Now, it is also possible that the individual priest doesn’t think that artificial birth control or sterilization are a major sin. Unfortunately, there are some priests who are not very orthodox in their understanding and teaching.

What does any of this have to do with the fact that sterilization is a sin?

 

[crowonsnow]

Now, it is also possible that the individual priest doesn’t think that artificial birth control or sterilization are a major sin. Unfortunately, there are some priests who are not very orthodox in their understanding and teaching.

What does any of this have to do with the fact that sterilization is a sin?

I think that’s probably it, that the priest just doesn’t see it as a big deal.

I just thought to chime in because from my perspective Catholics practicing birth control is common. It’s no big deal and not really kept hush-hush. Just from a common sense standpoint, most folks in the U.S. are Catholic and other Christian denominations, and there’s a lot of birth control practiced. It only makes sense to conclude that birth control is being practiced by lots of same. That’s what I meant by a priest turning a blind eye. He can’t help but know these things.

Of course I wouldn’t pry if I were a priest either, but I’d certainly be able to add 1 + 1. Know what I mean?

And the mortal sin thing got my attention. Apparently many catholic couples and lots of priests don’t think it’s a big deal, or even sinful. Or it could be that like you say they condone it and then go to confession, so all is then forgiven.

But I really just wanted to say that from my perspective I don’t see the big deal. They seem like perfectly normal families to me.

 

[rlg94086]

I think that’s probably it, that the priest just doesn’t see it as a big deal.

I just thought to chime in because from my perspective Catholics practicing birth control is common. It’s no big deal and not really kept hush-hush. Just from a common sense standpoint, most folks in the U.S. are Catholic and other Christian denominations, and there’s a lot of birth control practiced. It only makes sense to conclude that birth control is being practiced by lots of same. That’s what I meant by a priest turning a blind eye. He can’t help but know these things.

Of course I wouldn’t pry if I were a priest either, but I’d certainly be able to add 1 + 1. Know what I mean?

And the mortal sin thing got my attention. Apparently many catholic couples and lots of priests don’t think it’s a big deal, or even sinful. Or it could be that like you say they condone it and then go to confession, so all is then forgiven.

But I really just wanted to say that from my perspective I don’t see the big deal. They seem like perfectly normal families to me.

Sinfulness isn’t dependant on popular opinion or practice. Are a lot of Catholics committing the sin of artificial birth control? Yes. Do they confess it? Mostly no. Does that mean it isn’t a big deal and they will still go to heaven. Possibly not.

The role of the priest is not the same as a cop. They are to instruct. They are also there to give absolution and the Eucharist in persona Christi. If people don’t confess and receive unworthily, then the priest is unaware of the danger their souls are in.

For those priests who do not teach that artificial birth control is a sin, they themselves are sinning and leading their flocks to sin. I have no idea how many priests do that, but regardless, it doesn’t make it okay. The fact that the families look “perfectly normal” to you is inconsequential.

 

[crowonsnow]

Sinfulness isn’t dependant on popular opinion or practice. Are a lot of Catholics committing the sin of artificial birth control? Yes. Do they confess it? Mostly no. Does that mean it isn’t a big deal and they will still go to heaven. Possibly not.

The role of the priest is not the same as a cop. They are to instruct. They are also there to give absolution and the Eucharist in persona Christi. If people don’t confess and receive unworthily, then the priest is unaware of the danger their souls are in.

For those priests who do not teach that artificial birth control is a sin, they themselves are sinning and leading their flocks to sin. I have no idea how many priests do that, but regardless, it doesn’t make it okay. The fact that the families look “perfectly normal” to you is inconsequential.

Thank you for your patience in discussing this with me. It’s late and I probably ought to knock off.

I did want to say again though that these friends and their families are perfectly normal folks, and it would seem that such an outward example does have consequences. They’re not having abortions or breaking the laws of the state, and seem very loyal to their religion and their parishes.

Maybe there really is a problem in that there isn’t any enforcement of official teaching. Or maybe there’s a problem in that priests and church-goers can say one thing while doing something entirely opposite. That seems to be the case here from my perspective.

So I guess I’ll say no more on the subject.

Thanks for the conversation.