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Maxirad
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Do any CAF members generally agree with what the gentleman in this video says?
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VonDerTann
Guest
Some thoughts:
- It’s hard to ask members to sit through a 11+ minute video and ask if we agree. In the future, perhaps link but also summarize?
- Substantively, he’s advocating for a "house-first"strategy. That’s interesting, but what it all boils down to “spend taxpayer dollars to build people homes.” That didn’t work in the urban projects in the USA in the 1960s-70s, and I don’t think it will work now. His models seem to be Helsinki & maybe London – both of which have cradle-to-grave confiscatory levels of taxation. I’m not sure his “solution” isn’t the standard liberal solution as “throw tax money at the problem.”
- I disagree with his premises, which are (or seem to be) a) homeless doesn’t come from addiction or mental health issues; and b) homelessness stems from high housing costs. It’s interesting that he repeatedly cites places like LA (& CA in general):Yes, those places have high housing costs, but they also have a warm climate, and that alone keeps people on the streets. He’s not factoring those in.
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Maxirad
Guest
The same gentleman does bring up high-rise public housing projects in this other video.
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VonDerTann
Guest
My battery is low but I may check it out later.
But I won’t dismiss entirely either. Homelessness is in fact a serious issue and it’s a complex one. There might be circumstances where his solutions might work, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. I’m not so sure I didn’t like the San Antonio idea either; I just think his solutions are a little too pat: Just building a house may in some respects solve an immediate crisis, but it leads to the inevitable questions of ‘whos going to pay for it?’ and why we’d expect a free home to be any more well-maintained a year or 3 after someone takes up residence than anything else given free of charge to a recipient.
But I won’t dismiss entirely either. Homelessness is in fact a serious issue and it’s a complex one. There might be circumstances where his solutions might work, but a stopped clock is right twice a day. I’m not so sure I didn’t like the San Antonio idea either; I just think his solutions are a little too pat: Just building a house may in some respects solve an immediate crisis, but it leads to the inevitable questions of ‘whos going to pay for it?’ and why we’d expect a free home to be any more well-maintained a year or 3 after someone takes up residence than anything else given free of charge to a recipient.
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Maxirad
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I can’t say that the first video specifically mentions homeless people openly defecating on the sidewalk.
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VonDerTann
Guest
I didn’t think it did. I actually thought the guy’s idea was interesting, from a house-first model. That may be valid - maybe. But where’s the money coming from? Clearly the taxpayers, and that alone makes it suspect, hence my belief that at heart it’s really just “throw someone else’s money at the problem.”
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blackforest
Well-known member
On the surface, I’m open to what he proposes. (For reference, here is the data on California’s homeless population. California's homelessness crisis — and possible solutions — explained | CalMatters )
We have locally a homelessness prevention program that’s proving quite effective. And he’s correct that it saves taxpayers and non-profits money.
Also, I’d gladly put my tax dollars into Housing First initiatives. The status quo simply isn’t working.
We have locally a homelessness prevention program that’s proving quite effective. And he’s correct that it saves taxpayers and non-profits money.
Also, I’d gladly put my tax dollars into Housing First initiatives. The status quo simply isn’t working.
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Eric_Hyom
Guest
Anyone who pays a mortgage or rent; is only ever about three months away from being made homeless. You only have to suffer a crisis like loosing your job, have an accident or relationship breakdown.
Where I live in the UK; there is a major problem with teenagers sofa surfing. The new boyfriend moves in and takes a dislike to the child, the child is kicked out or leaves. They then spend time sleeping at their mates until they get moved on.
A number of homeless people I have met, have been homeless by choice. I have witnessed them turn down housing that has been offered to them.
In our town, the homeless shelters are run by the church. People first need to get referred by the council, who will then fund their placement. They generally stay in the shelter for about six months with support to help their health, job applications and somewhere more permanent.
They seem to have a good success rate in supporting change.
Where I live in the UK; there is a major problem with teenagers sofa surfing. The new boyfriend moves in and takes a dislike to the child, the child is kicked out or leaves. They then spend time sleeping at their mates until they get moved on.
A number of homeless people I have met, have been homeless by choice. I have witnessed them turn down housing that has been offered to them.
In our town, the homeless shelters are run by the church. People first need to get referred by the council, who will then fund their placement. They generally stay in the shelter for about six months with support to help their health, job applications and somewhere more permanent.
They seem to have a good success rate in supporting change.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
Having just recently moved from a major city I can testify that a lot of people are homeless due to mental health issues, drug addiction and no family support.
I was shocked at the increase in the number of homeless on the streets as opposed to 10 years ago when I lived there. They are on many street corners, have taken over bus stops, sidewalks and are panhandling everywhere. It is so
depressing!!
I was shocked at the increase in the number of homeless on the streets as opposed to 10 years ago when I lived there. They are on many street corners, have taken over bus stops, sidewalks and are panhandling everywhere. It is so
depressing!!
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Anesti33
Guest
A: They cannot.
It is largely a choice, or more accurately, it is a series of choices. You would be quite surprised at how many people don’t want to change their situation, they are comfortable and ensconced in their way of life, and wouldn’t change for the world. Others are completely incapable of transitioning to being housed again, either through dysfunction or extended homelessness: If you put them in a house then they will “act homeless” and never adjust to their pricey surroundings.
Still others will invite their friends over and make themselves quite unwelcome wherever they hang their hats. Housing programs have strict requirements about no extended guests and so forth, because any good fortune is shared liberally, by custom of the domestically challenged.
(Qualifications: I was homeless for 5 years; I spent ample time hanging out with street kids before and after that.)
Matthew 26:11
It is largely a choice, or more accurately, it is a series of choices. You would be quite surprised at how many people don’t want to change their situation, they are comfortable and ensconced in their way of life, and wouldn’t change for the world. Others are completely incapable of transitioning to being housed again, either through dysfunction or extended homelessness: If you put them in a house then they will “act homeless” and never adjust to their pricey surroundings.
Still others will invite their friends over and make themselves quite unwelcome wherever they hang their hats. Housing programs have strict requirements about no extended guests and so forth, because any good fortune is shared liberally, by custom of the domestically challenged.
(Qualifications: I was homeless for 5 years; I spent ample time hanging out with street kids before and after that.)
Matthew 26:11
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EssentialBeing
Guest
The efforts to resolve homelessness is admirable & I don’t think we as a society have delved deep enough into the causes to fully understand the problem. Sure illness & the price of housing have a lot to do with it, however, there is so much more.
Many long term homeless people actually develop illness because of homelessness, not so many are ill before becoming homeless. The bigger factor of the 2, is price as for the overwhelming majority of the homeless, experience it short term.
I agree that it is difficult to continue to throw tax dollars at the issue & the reliance on charity & not for profits is way to high. As a society we can do so much better to help those with no shelter, their are no easy answers & truly believe prevention is so much better than the cure.
Many long term homeless people actually develop illness because of homelessness, not so many are ill before becoming homeless. The bigger factor of the 2, is price as for the overwhelming majority of the homeless, experience it short term.
I agree that it is difficult to continue to throw tax dollars at the issue & the reliance on charity & not for profits is way to high. As a society we can do so much better to help those with no shelter, their are no easy answers & truly believe prevention is so much better than the cure.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Don’t have time to watch a blind video.
We need to have treatment for addictions. We need to make mental health care a human right.
We need to have treatment for addictions. We need to make mental health care a human right.
blackforest
Well-known member
My understanding is that Britain’s housing affordability crisis is much worse than ours in the U.S.
This is why I’m baffled that there’s so much resistance to Housing First initiatives. At least in my region, cities with large homeless populations like Portland, Seattle, and Spokane would look a lot different (read: better) with these policies in place.
It’s worth it. He’s proposing housing first, then treatment.
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Maxirad
Guest
Have you ever been to the San Francisco Bay Area, blackforest?
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Pattylt
Guest
While there have always been some homeless people, the explosion in numbers correlates to the closure of mental health residential hospitals. Most of the people were thrown out when policies changed to treat the mentally ill in their homes by outpatient treatments. The problem is so many had no where to go. I’m not sure of the exact year…late 60’s ? I worked as a volunteer in a state mental institution. They had some problems but the solution resulted in large increases in homelessness.
To add to the numbers is the increase of addicts that will always supply their habit before paying their rent. To fix the various issues will take more than a single solution. Many mentally ill are incapable of living alone. Drug addicts spend all their money on drugs. Free housing may get some off the streets but solves nothing.
We need to look at successful solutions that actually work for drug addictions like the solution in Portugal and once again creating mental health residences that are longer term than 6-12 week treatment programs. We aren’t just throwing money away if we devise treatments and actual solutions that work. Well never hit 100% but even 50% is huge. For the homeless that actually want to live that way, it seems we could even solve some of the problems with small modular spaces where they can sleep safely if nothing else and be more pleasant to look at than piles of blankets under bridges. We need to think outside the box a bit more and work with them a bit more instead of always deciding how we want to fix it…but instead look at what they say they need, even if some of those solutions make us uncomfortable.
To add to the numbers is the increase of addicts that will always supply their habit before paying their rent. To fix the various issues will take more than a single solution. Many mentally ill are incapable of living alone. Drug addicts spend all their money on drugs. Free housing may get some off the streets but solves nothing.
We need to look at successful solutions that actually work for drug addictions like the solution in Portugal and once again creating mental health residences that are longer term than 6-12 week treatment programs. We aren’t just throwing money away if we devise treatments and actual solutions that work. Well never hit 100% but even 50% is huge. For the homeless that actually want to live that way, it seems we could even solve some of the problems with small modular spaces where they can sleep safely if nothing else and be more pleasant to look at than piles of blankets under bridges. We need to think outside the box a bit more and work with them a bit more instead of always deciding how we want to fix it…but instead look at what they say they need, even if some of those solutions make us uncomfortable.
blackforest
Well-known member
The Bay Area is another perfect example of why we need to clean the streets and fine more lasting solutions for the homeless. Housing First initiatives, while not a completely flawless policy, are a humane and sustainable step toward that.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
You may find Ruby Payne’s work on poverty to be of interest.
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toddy
Guest
If the virus last longer, the world presses on a new economy along with the old existing one. The new economy is the virtual production of third economic sector and partial second economic sector any where in the world and safe from virus. Students, workers can do the job in their homes, RV in the rural virus free areas. That maybe end homeless pressure in the cities automatically. Virus does not discriminate any one.
blackforest
Well-known member
I’m not sure that it’s fair to say that “it solves nothing.” The video takes a research-based approach and details exactly what it solves. He also proposes housing first, then treatment. They work hand in hand. Addicts aren’t allowed in most shelters, but they shouldn’t face the dangers of the streets while waiting for treatment. Housing and treatment need to work hand in hand. The problem is that all too often the same people complaining about chronic homelessness don’t want to pay a dime to help resolve it.
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Pattylt
Guest
This I do agree with. I have no problem in realizing that whatever solutions we try are going to cost money. I’m willing for tax dollars to go towards solutions. I just have problems with so many treatments that aren’t shown to actually help. The addict on the street definitely needs a safe and secure location to live and sleep. Housing them first relieves the stress related to homelessness so that they can then concentrate on addressing the addiction. If the treatments we are currently using have terrible outcome success, then we still have the problem of addiction and are now just having addicts with free housing. That’s what I mean by we haven’t solved anything.
I remember about a year ago reading an in-depth article about a housing first solution in the Netherlands(?). It really had mixed success. Some were able to completely rejoin society but some were continually having to re enter treatments time and time again. I can’t remember the guaranteed length of stay…I want to say it was two years which is a reasonable amount of time to me…enough to get back on the right path without it being unrealistic. For those that succeeded, they praised it. For those that it failed, they said they felt too “watched”. I liked the ideas behind it. I just think that many rehab treatments are great for some but failing for others. I’d like to see more varieties in how we approach the treatment parts. I think there are just certain people that we need to approach differently…one of which is providing for their habits as well as their housing…with slow progressive treatments to guide them away from their addictive habits and instilling other coping mechanisms along the way. Most people react strongly against this approach even though it shows as much success as typical treatments. All the housing first does is relieve the stress of housing…which is a big needed step but it’s not enough by itself, obviously, but cookie cutter plans for treatment needs expansion, too.
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