You've Got it Down to a Formula

[Juxtaposer]

It seems as though Catholic theology has its methods down to meticulous formulas. For example, if a priest does not follow a certain formula, the communion elements will not actually be consecrated. If someone is not baptized correctly they may not enter Heaven, hence the existence of condition baptisms. You’ve got a rule for this and a rule for that. If you confess your sins but are not actually sorry, you’re forgiven anyway just because the right formula was followed. You believe in invalid ordinations, illicit Masses, and a place for the unbaptized and innocent to go after death (even though Limbo seems to be getting phased out of Catholic theology). The Western spiritual life seems to closely resemble some kind of regiment. All of this implies that Catholic theology limits the power of God to mere formulas. God is much, much bigger than that. The West is just too rational.

Rebuke with care.

 

[JPrejean]

The West is just too rational.

I’ll give you credit for one thing, your post was definitely not too rational.

In all seriousness, though, you don’t seem to quite grasp liceity and validity, and you haven’t accounted at all for proper disposition to receive sacramental grace.

 

[Juxtaposer]

JPrejean:

I’ll give you credit for one thing, your post was definitely not too rational.

Pray tell.

JPrejean:

In all seriousness, though, you don’t seem to quite grasp liceity and validity, and you haven’t accounted at all for proper disposition to receive sacramental grace.

That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

 

[SydLake]

There is more to being catholic than just acting the way Jesus wanted us to act. In fact if we didn’t have rules, what would make us any better than the other religions?

And it is important to have a set of dogma and doctrine that can be relied upon. We, for instance, can not just have everybody receiving Christ willy nilly, if people receive unworthily they place themselves in great moral harm. Jesus only cpmes to those that meet the requirements of the church, the church He founded and to whom He gave the keys of heaven.

 

[MariaG]

If someone is not baptized correctly they may not enter Heaven, hence the existence of condition baptisms.

This has got more to do with following the command of our Lord to go and Baptize, since the Church allows that people may go to heaven who have not been baptized, for example Baptism of Desire.

If you confess your sins but are not actually sorry, you’re forgiven anyway just because the right formula was followed.

Only God forgives sin. Even if the “right words” are said, God is the one doing the forgiving. A person must be actually contrite for the sins to be forgiven. There is no magic formula.

You have some serious misconceptions of Catholic practices and beliefs.

 

[Strider]

Juxtaposer,

I could point out all the fallacies and misunderstandings in your post, but that would take all the fun out of it for you.
You obviously have a tenuous understanding of Catholicism. To gain a true knowledge of what the Church REALLY teaches, why don’t you try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church? And take notes, there’s a lot of information there.
Come back when you’re finished and give it another try.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Strider:

Juxtaposer,

I could point out all the fallacies and misunderstandings in your post, but that would take all the fun out of it for you.
You obviously have a tenuous understanding of Catholicism. To gain a true knowledge of what the Church REALLY teaches, why don’t you try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church? And take notes, there’s a lot of information there.
Come back when you’re finished and give it another try.

You have no idea how often I read the CCC. Im not some non-Catholic who wants to save you from Catholicism. I agree with many things the Catholic Church teaches. I dissagree with the way so many rules have formed around dogma.

 

[jimmy]

Juxtaposer:

It seems as though Catholic theology has its methods down to meticulous formulas. For example, if a priest does not follow a certain formula, the communion elements will not actually be consecrated. If someone is not baptized correctly they may not enter Heaven, hence the existence of condition baptisms. You’ve got a rule for this and a rule for that. If you confess your sins but are not actually sorry, you’re forgiven anyway just because the right formula was followed. You believe in invalid ordinations, illicit Masses, and a place for the unbaptized and innocent to go after death (even though Limbo seems to be getting phased out of Catholic theology). The Western spiritual life seems to closely resemble some kind of regiment. All of this implies that Catholic theology limits the power of God to mere formulas. God is much, much bigger than that. The West is just too rational.

Rebuke with care.

If you are not sorry for your sins you are not forgiven.

 

[Juxtaposer]

jimmy:

If you are not sorry for your sins you are not forgiven.

Really? Could you reference that?

 

[enanneman]

Juxtaposer:

Really? Could you reference that?

If he can’t, I can.

Penance requires the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.
# 1450 of the Catechism

Peace and God Bless!

Eric

 

[jimmy]

The Catholic view of baptism is the same as the eastern Orthodox view. They both say that baptism is required. The Catholic Church requires that you be baptised in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is not the same if you do it only in the name of the Father or only in the name of the Son. God is three persons, so baptism is done in the name of all three. Jesus said go baptise in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. There aren’t many restrictions on baptism. A pagan could perform a baptism if he wanted, as long as he does it in the name of all three persons of the Trinity. If you want to verify that read the council of Florence on Baptism. Baptism has always been necisary, and the east would agree. The church fathers back this up. Origen says that there is no forgiveness of sins without baptism. Justin said this

Justin Martyr - “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (***First Apology ***61 [A.D. 151]).

The Catholic Church also believes in baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire. Baptism of blood is martyrdom and this is what Chysostom says of it.

John Chrysostom - “Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood” (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).

He is clearly talking about baptism as a necisary thing. My point is that the Catholic view of baptism is very consistent with the church fathers.

 

[jimmy]

enanneman:

If he can’t, I can.

Peace and God Bless!

Eric

thankyou enanneman for posting the text.

 

[jimmy]

Juxtaposer:

It seems as though Catholic theology has its methods down to meticulous formulas. For example, if a priest does not follow a certain formula, the communion elements will not actually be consecrated. If someone is not baptized correctly they may not enter Heaven, hence the existence of condition baptisms. You’ve got a rule for this and a rule for that. If you confess your sins but are not actually sorry, you’re forgiven anyway just because the right formula was followed. You believe in invalid ordinations, illicit Masses, and a place for the unbaptized and innocent to go after death (even though Limbo seems to be getting phased out of Catholic theology). The Western spiritual life seems to closely resemble some kind of regiment. All of this implies that Catholic theology limits the power of God to mere formulas. God is much, much bigger than that. The West is just too rational.

Rebuke with care.

Limbo is not a dogma of the church. It is only the belief of some. Everyone is allowed to have there own opinion on things like this that aren’t contradicting the teachings of the church.

 

[delorean_boy]

"Penance requires the sinner to endure all things willingly, be
CONTRITE OF HEART, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfactiom
-Catechism of the Catholic Church
-paragraph 1450

you may also want to read Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4 for the entire reasoning of the sacrament of penance

or just go ahead and check all of Section 2 entitled THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH, for a comprehensive description of Catholic beliefs on all of the sacraments.

 

[mark_a]

Juxtaposer:

If you confess your sins but are not actually sorry, you’re forgiven anyway just because the right formula was followed.

Man!! Is this correct? Have I been sorry for nothing? What a waste!! This loophole is almost as good as not having to be sorry because “once saved always saved”.

Juxtaposer:

Rebuke with care.

Gotta hand it to you- this was cute.

 

[Juxtaposer]

mark a:

This loophole is almost as good as not having to be sorry because “once saved always saved”.

Yeah, that crazy sect of Protestants.

 

[Juxtaposer]

jimmy:

Limbo is not a dogma of the church. It is only the belief of some. Everyone is allowed to have there own opinion on things like this that aren’t contradicting the teachings of the church.

Did limbo leave Catholic theology when baptism by desire came in?

 

[jimmy]

Juxtaposer:

Did limbo leave Catholic theology when baptism by desire came in?

It never entered Catholic theology. It never was a dogma and it still isn’t a dogma.

 

[jimmy]

Juxtaposer:

Did limbo leave Catholic theology when baptism by desire came in?

Baptism of desire has always been believed. It may not have been a dogma 1500 years ago but it was taught. Here is Aquinas on baptism of desire.

Index << | >>]
Third Part << | >>]
Question: 68 << | >>]
Article: 2 << | >>]
​

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**Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
**

Objection 1: It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” But those alone are saved who enter God’s kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.

Objection 2: Further, in the book De Eccl. Dogm. xli, it is written: “We believe that no catechumen, though he die in his good works, will have eternal life, except he suffer martyrdom, which contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism.” But if it were possible for anyone to be saved without Baptism, this would be the case specially with catechumens who are credited with good works, for they seem to have the “faith that worketh by charity” (Gal. 5:6). Therefore it seems that none can be saved without Baptism.

Objection 3: Further, as stated above (Article [1]; Question [65], Article [4]), the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation. Now that is necessary “without which something cannot be” (Metaph. v). Therefore it seems that none can obtain salvation without Baptism.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.

continued

 

[jimmy]

I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that worketh by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.

Reply to Objection 1: As it is written (1 Kgs. 16:7), “man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart.” Now a man who desires to be “born again of water and the Holy Ghost” by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Rm. 2:29) that “the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God.”

Reply to Objection 2: No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom “contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism,” i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without “faith that worketh by charity”), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, “but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire” as is stated 1 Cor. 3:15.
Reply to Objection 3: The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; “which, with God, counts for the deed” (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).