Zeitgeist: Part One Refuted

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OK, just watched it. Let’s summarize quickly with responses so no one else has to suffer. :hypno:

PART I: Jesus was a mythical astrological sun god. :whacky:

On Horus: not virgin born, not crucified, not resurrected. What I have:

In ancient Egypt several gods are known by this name, but the most important was the son of Osiris and Isis, identified as king of Egypt. Horus fought with Seth, and despite losing an eye, was successful in avenging the death of his father Osiris, becoming his legitimate successor. Osiris became king of the underworld, and Horus king of the living. By the fifth dynasty (2498 - 2345 BC), the Horus-king also became “son of Re” the sun god by personifying mythologically the entire older genealogy of Horus as the goddess Hathor, or “house of Horus” who was also the spouse of Re and mother of Horus.

Where they get all that (other) information and parallels with Jesus I do not know. There is a small article on him in the Encyclopedia of Religion (1987). The major Egyptian god it seems was Osiris, sometimes called a “god of resurrection,” but he hardly gets a mention in this video.

On Attis: not virgin born (some accounts have mother conceiving by a fruit produced by blood), not crucified (castrated under a pine tree), not resurrected (this was a later 4th-5th century Christian interpretation), further the original Phrygian Attis may not have been considered a god. Associated with Cybele who was a goddess.

On Krishna: not virgin born, not crucified, was resurrected/ascended in the epic-poem the Mahabharata (Book 16: Mausala Parva) dated to around the 1st century AD, with parts being earlier, was not a “Son of God” but an incarnation or avatar or personification of “God himself.” To the Hindus, God (Brahma) is impersonal.

On Dionysos: a son of Zeus, not virgin born (since Zeus literally slept with or raped his “wives” who were generally mortal women), was not crucified, not resurrected but “restored” from his heart or re-born from the thigh of Zeus – thus Dionysos is sometimes called the “twice-born.” For some parallels between Dionysos and Jesus see Dionysos [2006] by Richard Seaford, chapter 9.

On Mithras: not virgin born (born from a rock), not crucified, not resurrected, did ascend in the Sun’s chariot, and was considered a “god of light and salvation.” Also had a communion-like service of bread and wine, but this was common in the ancient world (see Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras, pages 109, 112-113). The Roman Mithras dates to the end of the first century AD, and flourished in the 3rd-4th century AD, too late to influence the New Testament and early Christianity.

The dates are all wrong. Some of them date much later than indicated (even post-Christianity), except for Dionysos who is dated earlier than indicated – Dionysos first appears on a clay tablet from the Greek bronze age, over three thousand years ago, our oldest living symbol. The earliest surviving Dionysiac myth is in Homer: Adriadne is killed by Artemis “on the testimony of Dionysos” (Odyssey 11.325). See Seaford, Dionysos [2006], pages 3, 4, 76-77, 110.

Only Mithra was born on Dec 25th, the pagan feast of the dies natalis Solis Invicti, “the birthday of the Unconquerable Sun.” The rest were not. At the head of the Deposition Martyrum of the so-called Roman Chronograph of 354 AD (the Philocalian Calendar) there is listed the natus Christus in Betleem Judaeae (“the birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea”) as being celebrated on December 25. The Deposition was originally composed in 336 AD, so Christmas dates back at least that far. It was chosen to attract pagans, and Christianized by the Church (also Easter), but it is not found in the New Testament or the Gospels themselves. See "The Antichrist at the Manger" from Dec 1993 This Rock.

At the end of the “documentary” there is not a single scholarly source listed. All the books come from “New Age” or self-published or independent, non-scholarly, non-academic publishers (such as "Adventures Unlimited Press" or “Tree Life Publishers”). No books by university publishers, no scholarly authors, no real historians. What a surprise since they get everything wrong! :rolleyes:

One book that explodes all of Part I is The Jesus Legend by Boyd/Eddy (Baker Academic, 2007). This is probably the best current book out there responding to the “Jesus myth” types.

PART II: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories :whacky:

See Loose Change Guide or the book by Popular Mechanics Debunking 9/11 Myths

PART III: One World Government Ideas

It will happen. They convinced me. :yawn: Actually I’m out of words for this post. 😃

Phil P
 
Furthermore, the basic traits of the pagan mystery religions summarized:

– central to the mysteries was the annual vegetation cycle where life is renewed each spring and died each fall; the cults found symbolic and spiritual significance in the natural process of growth, death, decay, and rebirth;

– many mystery religions involved secret ceremonies, sometimes in connection with an initiation rite, with esoteric knowledge revealed to the participant;

– a basic element was a myth in which the deity dies or “disappears” (and then “returns” or “revives” or “reappears” or is “restored”) and otherwise triumphs over enemies;

– unlike the early Christians, the mysteries had little use for correct doctrine, dogma, or belief; they were primarily concerned with the emotional state of their followers and appealed to the imagination;

– the immediate goal was a mystical or religious experience in order to achieve union with their god, or otherwise some kind of “salvation” of the soul or immortality or deification.

The difference between the pagan “dying gods” and the meaning of Jesus’ death:

– none of the so-called “savior-gods” died for someone else; Jesus Christ the Son of God died in place of His creatures (1 Cor 15:3-4; Romans 5:6-8; 1 John 2:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Tim 2:4-6) which is unique to Christianity;

– only Jesus died on the cross for sin, the pagan gods are never claimed to die for sins; they were not crucified (there are in fact NO “crucified saviors” other than Jesus) but died violently by other means (self-emasculation; hunting accident; ripped apart by wild boars or the Titans or crazed women or jealous brothers; etc);

– Jesus died once for all (Heb 7:27; 9:25-28; 10:10-14); many of the pagan gods were vegetation deities whose repeated death and “rebirth” depicted the annual cycle of nature; it is a mythical drama with no historical ties;

– the early Christian church believed its proclamation of Jesus’ one-time death upon the cross and bodily resurrection is grounded upon what actually happened in history (“we are witnesses of these things” cf. Acts 1:1-4; 1:8; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39-41; Luke 1:1-4; 24:48; 1 John 1:1-3; 2 Peter 1:16).

– unlike the pagan gods, Jesus dies voluntarily (John 10:10-18; Phil 2:5-11); Jesus’ death was not a defeat but a triumph (1 Cor 15:54-58; Col 2:14-15; 2 Tim 1:10).

Why early Christianity is not dependent on the various pagan cults:

– The arguments of the “syncretist case” illustrates the logical fallacy of first cause: mere coincidence or similarity does not prove dependence or causal connection;

– Many alleged similarities between Christianity and the mystery religions are either exaggerated or simply false; there are no other crucified and resurrected saviors besides Jesus Christ;

– The chronology is wrong: almost all of our sources of information for supposed Christian “parallels” with pagan religions are very late (i.e. post-Christian); these include Adonis (2nd to 5th century AD); Attis (5th century AD); Mithras (late 1st century AD and beyond); the “crucified” Orpheus amulet (3rd or 4th century AD, but probably a fake); the “resurrection and ascension” of Krishna (the complete text known from the 1st century AD); this is too late for the New Testament writers themselves to have been influenced by such accounts;

– the full development of the mystery religions occurred in the 2nd century and later (with the exception of the Greek Dionysos) and we must distinguish between the different forms of the cults; the later forms are not necessarily present in the earlier forms;

– The apostles would not have borrowed from the pagan religions since their training and background was in Judaism (Phil 3:5); they rejected the alien speculations of syncretism and gnosticism (Col 2:7-8; 1 Tim 4:1-5; 1 John 4:1-6);

– any genuine parallels that exist reflect an ascendant Christian influence on the dying pagan systems; furthermore, since Jesus, His apostles, and many of their first disciples were all Jews, Christianity’s doctrinal roots, rituals, and liturgy lay in Judaism not paganism;

– Christianity is a monotheistic religion (one God) and an exclusive faith (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) with a definite body of doctrine (the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, the sacraments, one revelation from God through Christ to His apostles passed on through Scripture and Tradition, an apostolic succession and hierarchy of bishops to safeguard that doctrine, etc);

– The religion of the apostles and their successors was grounded in events that actually happened in history at a particular place and time (the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth); the mysticism and mythology of the mystery cults was essentially non-historical.

Summarized from Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks (P & R, 1992, 2003), page 112-115, 160-161, etc.

Phil P
 
Another thing, they claim this cross symbol is pagan:

http://z.about.com/d/genealogy/1/7/z/5/tombstone_celtic_cross.jpg

"This is not a symbol of Christianity, it is a pagan adaptation of the cross of the zodiac."

HELLO? 😛 So Christianity is simply ancient zodiac worship. Bet you didn’t know that? 😛

Response: It is simply the Celtic cross, characteristic symbol of Celtic Christianity, forming a major part of Celtic art. It is also referred to as the high cross, Irish Cross, or the Cross of Iona.

There are many representations of the cross:

Christian crosses:

– The Latin cross (used from the 2nd-3rd century AD);

– the Greek cross;

– the cross of Calvary or Graded Cross;

– the Celtic cross distinguished by the circle and intricate designs;

– the Russian Orthodox cross consists of three bars, the lowest bar slanted, the top bar represents “INRI” sign placed over Jesus’ head;

– the papal cross is the official symbol of the papacy, the three bars of the cross most likely represent the three realms of the Pope’s authority;

– the baptismal cross has eight points, symbolizing regeneration, formed by combining the Greek cross with the Greek letter chi (X), the first letter of “Christ” in Greek;

– the budded cross, its trefoils represent the Trinity;

– the conqueror’s or victor’s cross is another Greek cross;

– the triumphant cross with orb represents Christ’s reign over the world;

– an inverted cross is the cross of St. Peter who according to tradition was crucified upside down because he felt unworthy to die the same way as Christ.

Do all of these come from paganism? Then what’s the astrological zodiac connection with these, I need to know! 😛

Videos like these are so stupid they make me almost want to take out my own YouTube account and figure out how to work a web cam so you can hear my sexy voice too. 😃

Phil P
 
Another quote from the video on Horus, Jesus, and Egyptian religion:

"Furthermore, the character of Jesus, being a literary and astrological hybrid, is most explicitly a plagiarization of the Egyptian sun-god Horus… (picture is shown from the Egyptian Luxor Temple) …This is exactly the story of Jesus’ miracle conception. In fact, the literary similarities between the Egyptian religion and the Christian religion are staggering."

OK, let’s lay out the basic Osiris-Horus-Isis myth and see if you can notice any parallels with the Catholic Christian religion here:

Osiris became ruler of the land, but was tricked and slain by his jealous brother, Seth. According to the Greek version of the story, Typhon (Seth) had a beautiful coffin made to Osiris’ exact measurements, and with 72 conspirators at a banquet, promised it to the one who would fit it. Each guest tried it for size, and Osiris was the one to fit exactly. Immediately Seth and the conspirators nailed the lid shut, sealed the coffin in lead, and threw it into the Nile. The coffin was eventually borne across the sea to Byblos, where Isis, who had been continually searching for her husband, finally located it.

She returns the body to Egypt where Seth discovers it, cuts the corpse into pieces, and scatters them throughout the country. Isis transforms herself into a kite, and with her sister Nephthys, searches for and finds all the pieces (except the male member, which she replicates), reconstitutes the body, and before embalming to give Osiris eternal life, she revivifies it, couples with it, and thus conceives Horus. According to the principal version of the story cited by Plutarch, Isis had already given birth to her son, but according to the Egyptian Hymn to Osiris, she conceived him by the revivified corpse of her husband. Later Horus avenges his father Osiris’ death and succeeds him without completely destroying Seth.

My sources: “Osiris” and “Dying and Rising Gods” in The Encyclopedia of Religion edited by Mircea Eliade (1987), and Osiris: Death and Afterlife of a God (Oxford Blackwell, 2005) by Bojana Mojsov.

Sorry, I don’t see the parallels. :rolleyes: The story is cool and all that, but it has nothing to do with Jesus. 😛

In addition, the image from the temple of Luxor (Egypt) shown in the video, is the birth of Ra (not Horus) by his mother Neith (not Isis):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/LuxorAmenhetep.gif

Image from the temple at Luxor, showing Amenhotep III’s vanity in depicting his wife as Neith, who was the mother of Ra, king of heaven, but remained permanently a pure virgin. The four panels depict, in order:

1: Thoth (with “ibis” beak, long-legged wading bird) announcing to Neith (mother of Ra) that she would become pregnant.
2: Kneph (the breath of life, his name meaning soul-breath) and Hathor (a personification of the Milky Way, a heavenly cow-deity) causing Neith to become pregnant via an ankh (Egyptian fertility or “life” symbol).
3: The birth, over a birth brick, of Ra (representing Akhenaten, meaning “Effective spirit of Aten” and first known as Amenhotep IV).
4: The adoration of Ra by the gods and the courtiers.

Also depicted in the Horus article from Wikipedia. Sorry the parallels aren’t there, and it isn’t Horus. At least get your Egyptian gods right. 😛

Edit: There is an explanation of the confusion of names in the Horus article. The form of Ra at this point was Ra-Amun, who was becoming identified as Horus. The child of Tiye, who consequently is described as being Ra/Horus through this association with the legend, went on to become Akhenaten, when pharaoh. All right I stand corrected. Again since this is Wikipedia that anyone can edit, I might have to double-check this at a library. 👍

Phil P
 
Wanted to provide this research link:

ALL ABOUT HORUS

I plan on a visit to the library to get some books on Horus. “Zeitgeist’s” two main authors according to its own transcript:

Acharya S., Suns of God / The Christ Conspiracy
Gerald Massey, The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ / Ancient Egypt The Light of The World

Sensationalist authors, non-scholarly publishers, out-of-date references.

Sources that should have been used:

The Routledge dictionary of Egyptian gods and goddesses by George Hart.
Published: London ; New York : Routledge, 2005.

The complete gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt by Richard H. Wilkinson.
Published: London : Thames & Hudson, 2003.

Handbook of Egyptian mythology by Geraldine Pinch.
Published: Santa Barbara, Calif. : ABC-CLIO, 2002.

The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt by Donald B. Redford, editor in chief.
Published: New York : Oxford University Press, 2001.

The gods of Egypt by Claude Traunecker, translated from the French by David Lorton.
Published: Ithaca [NY] : Cornell University Press, 2001.

The gods of ancient Egypt by Pascal Vernus, translated from the French by Jane Marie Todd.
Published: New York : George Braziller, 1998.

Scholarly publishers, up-to-date sources. I’ll get to the bottom of this Horus-Jesus thing. 😛

Phil P
 
OK, took me about a week. One trip to the library, photocopy a few pages, and this is the result. I’m all done with the Horus is Jesus thing for a few years at least. 😛

ALL ABOUT HORUS: An Egyptian Copy of Christ?

I’ll add a few more comments on the Luxor inscription perhaps.

You can now refer to this as the definitive response to the “Zeitgeist” movie nonsense. With a little help from W. Ward Gasque, and Ben Witherington.

Phil P
 
PhilVaz said:
OK, took me about a week. One trip to the library, photocopy a few pages, and this is the result. I’m all done with the Horus is Jesus thing for a few years at least. 😛

ALL ABOUT HORUS: An Egyptian Copy of Christ?

I’ll add a few more comments on the Luxor inscription perhaps.

You can now refer to this as the definitive response to the “Zeitgeist” movie nonsense. With a little help from W. Ward Gasque, and Ben Witherington.

Phil P
Click to expand...
Wow, you did your Lenten penance, huh?
 
Phil P,

Thanks be to God for your wonderful work on this topic.

I was just asked by my pastor, Rev. Fr. Neil McNeill, to do some research on this topic. I initially found some fine work by Protestants that I will certainly use (we’re all defending the same Lord and God); but, I really wanted some good Catholic apologetics, too.

Your posts here and at your website are fabulous. In fact, all of your and Apolonio’s website is wonderful. I am going to have a great time perusing it.

And I will be sure to provide a link to it on the blog that I run for the Ville Platte Catholic Youth Group the next time that I update it.

May God bless you and keep you in His peace.

Nicholas Jagneaux
 
BTW, thanks Cajun. Just wanted to reply to leave this thread on the first page for another day or 2. 👍

Phil P
 
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