zeitgeist?

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my friend always speaks about this movie called zeitgeist and is not a Christian because of it… has anyone seen it? i watched a clip on the part of the movie that discusses religion and they’re trying to show comparisons between the story Christ and ancients gods… here is a clip for those interested

youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw

how would i be able to reply to these claims? thank you and God bless
 
Paging PhilVaz… PhilVaz to the front desk please…

That’s our resident expert on these so-called “comparisons”. You can have a look at some previous threads related to this matter too, like the ones alleging that Christianity is derived from paganism. They’re rollicking good reads.
 
Running as fast as I can to the front desk…pant, pant, pant, pant. :eek:

Not another victim of Zeitgeist! PhilVaz to the rescue! You rang, sir? 👍

Sorry Mr. Zeitgeist, Horus is Not Jesus

and

Parallel Pagan “Saviors” Examined

and a couple articles from This Rock covers Buddha as well:

Christ vs. Buddha (sidebar) and Are Jesus and Buddha Brothers?

and when I can get around to finishing these…

will cover the evidence for Jesus, reliability of the Gospels
will answer Religulous “mockumentary” completely (hint: I took a audio recorder into the theatre)

Meanwhile, someone just sent me this:

Defending the Gospels in response to “Shredding the Gospels”

Phil P
 
Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.

Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, humps him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)

As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.

Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.

This is accurate.

Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.

I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave.

Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.

There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm

Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)

There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.

Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.

There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.

Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.

There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.

Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.

According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.

Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.

Claim #10-Both walked on water.

Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day.

Claim #11-Both performed miracles.

This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.

Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.

The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.

Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.

These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection.
 
Running as fast as I can to the front desk…pant, pant, pant, pant. :eek:

Not another victim of Zeitgeist! PhilVaz to the rescue! You rang, sir? 👍

Phil P
He he. That’s PhilVaz for you. Not just ready, willing and able to debunk Zeitgeist but very thorough as well.

You really should put this all down in a book and publish it Phil. I’d buy five copies right off the bat.

Maybe self-publish through lulu or wordclay?
 
<< You really should put this all down in a book and publish it Phil. I’d buy five copies right off the bat. Maybe self-publish through lulu or wordclay? >>

:newidea: Well only problem is much of these articles aren’t my own words. I do a lot of summarizing from other people’s work. I’m not that good a writer!

So most of the “Parallel Pagan Saviors” article comes right out of the Encyclopedia of Religion (1987 edition, there is also a 2005 2nd edition) articles almost word-for-word (except for Introduction and Conclusion), and the “All About Horus” is virtually word-for-word out of two sources: Oxford Ency of Ancient Egypt (2001) and Routledge Dictionary (2005) by Hart. I added a few quotes here and there from other sources, plus some graphics, but a lot isn’t my own work.

Phil P
 
<< You really should put this all down in a book and publish it Phil. I’d buy five copies right off the bat. Maybe self-publish through lulu or wordclay? >>

:newidea: Well only problem is much of these articles aren’t my own words. I do a lot of summarizing from other people’s work. I’m not that good a writer!

So most of the “Parallel Pagan Saviors” article comes right out of the Encyclopedia of Religion (1987 edition, there is also a 2005 2nd edition) articles almost word-for-word (except for Introduction and Conclusion), and the “All About Horus” is virtually word-for-word out of two sources: Oxford Ency of Ancient Egypt (2001) and Routledge Dictionary (2005) by Hart. I added a few quotes here and there from other sources, plus some graphics, but a lot isn’t my own work.

Phil P
The summarizations themselves are excellent actually. Rather than a person having to trawl through all these different books to try to put it all together, you’ve done a wonderful job of it. The important thing is that the sources be cited if they’re to be used.

If you like we can work together on it. I’m currently writing an apologetics book myself and plan to go the lulu and/or wordclay route. I can be a pretty good editor myself if needs be.
 
<< If you like we can work together on it. I’m currently writing an apologetics book myself and plan to go the lulu and/or wordclay route. >>

Hmmmm, maybe. Send me an Email. We can even ask Ben Witherington if he wants his name on the book or if he doesn’t mind me summarizing all his blog posts on the “Astro-Theology” stuff (which I did). Might have to ask Richard Carrier the skeptic as well since I summarize some of his article on the Egyptian Luxor inscriptions.

It would be cool to have a PhilVaz Book in print, I wouldn’t mind seeing that. 😛

Phil P
 
John89 << how would i be able to reply to these claims? thank you and God bless >>

BTW, the quickest way to debunk the entire Zeitgeist first part (on Horus) is to ask the Zeitgeist believer: Does Sun equal Son?

That’s right, you heard me. Do you believe Sun = Son? 😛

In other words, is a big fireball in the sky at the center of our solar system that is filled with helium and hydrogen the equilvalent of a male offspring you have as a parent? Does Sun = Son? If not, Zeitgeist Part 1 is debunked. And we don’t even have to delve into the details about Horus at all. :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
John89 << how would i be able to reply to these claims? thank you and God bless >>

BTW, the quickest way to debunk the entire Zeitgeist first part (on Horus) is to ask the Zeitgeist believer: Does Sun equal Son?

That’s right, you heard me. Do you believe Sun = Son? 😛

In other words, is a big fireball in the sky at the center of our solar system that is filled with helium and hydrogen the equilvalent of a male offspring you have as a parent? Does Sun = Son? If not, Zeitgeist Part 1 is debunked. And we don’t even have to delve into the details about Horus at all. :rolleyes:

Phil P
All I have to add is Thank You PhilV, my little sister that I homeschooled for the last 2 years of highschool is in college now. Although she used a private catholic homeschool curriculum, says to me the other day, “you know if it were not for those two years of homeschooling, I know I would be prey for the profesors”

It is just amazing to me how easily people follow and fell away from their faith because of all the lies.
 
my friend always speaks about this movie called zeitgeist and is not a Christian because of it… has anyone seen it? i watched a clip on the part of the movie that discusses religion and they’re trying to show comparisons between the story Christ and ancients gods… here is a clip for those interested

youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw

how would i be able to reply to these claims? thank you and God bless
Zeitgeist is full of too many arguments and assertions supported by too few facts. I’ve found this to be useful in debunking it. It quotes the movie verbatim, and points out the flaws in each point.

conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/
 
tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
(lots of info, but very good debunk of Zeitgeist)

zeitgeistresponse.info/
(a VERY good point-by-point cross exam of the film)

preventingtruthdecay.org/historicaljesus.shtml
(Mostly links to other sites but has some very good documentation of the historical Jesus and demolishes the “pagan deity infulence” fallacy)

Note: this “Jesus Myth” garbage is a real minority view. Even Richard Dawkins knows Jesus existed. Most of these Jesus mythers are masons and conspiracy theorists who want you to buy their books (that don’t cite any original documents mind you)
 
I listened to the first half of Zeitgeist. I am in the reserve, have deployed for OIF, and also work as a fulltime government civilian. The second half of the film gives me plenty of insight into their true motives. The numerous ramblings at the beginning go even against the sensibilities of historians, Christian or not, because the speaker suggests that we should forget the past and live in the “now.” Their relation of Christ to Horus, as well as figures from other cultures, redefine the terms liberal or loose. They make these other stories sound like the exact story of Christ, but they actually misrepresent them in order to falsely fit them to the Gospels.

After listening and praying, I came to some personal conclusions. My faith is strengthened by the fact that there are some parallels between ancient Israelite stories / prophecies, and those from other peoples. As a matter of fact, it proves to me that we all came from a common set of ancestors. When we examine these stories from other cultures, however, we can see how they attempted to explain things in terms of human thinking. They assign selfish human characteristics to their god or gods, and are bereft of spiritual truth. God chose the Israelites, a tribe of slaves, the lowest of the low, not because they were better, but to show how generous He is with mankind. To show that He is the One who holds the power, not us frail human beings. The stories of the Israelites in the Old Testament are Sacred Scripture because they show Salvation History, and lead up to Christ. If Isaiah prophesied about Jesus, I should expect myths from other cultures to have some element of the truth, since we do come from common parents. However, that doesn’t mean that these other cultures interpreted them correctly. Instead, they chose to put a selfish, fallen, human face on their gods. God chose to reveal Himself to the Jews in order to make Himself rightly known to man for our salvation. As far as the zodiac and movement of the stars, I am not an astronomer, and do not know if all that the speaker presents is true. However, if the God of the universe created all things, why should we be surprised if He stamped His plan of salvation for us into the very stars? Praise God, He has never given up on mankind. Jesus Himself in John 12 says “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.” Creation itself reflects the Creator. That doesn’t mean anything in creation is a god, it simply means God is the Creator. The fact that ancient civilizations celebrated a season for the gift of new life it brought, even though they did it imperfectly and without the knowledge of Christ, shows that it is quite natural to seek a higher level of understanding of that very same event. The spiritual truth that all of this foreshadows is new life in Christ.

Unfortunately, we all tend to look for what we want to believe, then we find others who will give us an excuse to continue in error. It is the age old sin of disobedience against God. I am thankful Our Lord is so patient, may Truth Incarnate prevail. Websites such as this one will help those who are seeking He who is Truth. Sadly, it may not help those who are seeking an excuse to turn from God. However, God is still in charge and we have to trust and obey.

Thanks & God Bless,
David
 
You want to speak against such critically thinking?

I think it’s a blessing to really find this out, if not, a little relieving. We are *that *much closer to truth.

Besides… just because these documentaries make sense (at least to me) doesn’t mean you have to throw away all of your beliefs on God. I watch and praise these types of documentaries, and I’m still a happy Catholic-- no, I’m more that, now: I’m a happy, ***enlightened ***Catholic! 😃

…I just need some more research to go through, of course. 😉 I want to get as many point of views as possible.

sigh I love religion.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
 
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