Zeitgeist

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Has anyone seen this movie? What are your thoughts?
Based on part one, the director seems to have a real beef with Christianity and the Church in particular.

zeitgeistmovie.com/
 
I watched less then the first ten minutes. There are better things to watch. I suppose you could look at it as an interesting combination of pacifistic New Age philosophy put forth by a huge conspiracy theorist, but to call it interesting is an overstatement.

BTW, you probably should’ve put a warning on this. There are some very graphic, violent, and disturbing images in the first few scenes alone.
 
For the benefit of others entering this thread, prior to loading and viewing the film you may want to visit the website’s “Statement” page regarding the movie (edited here for space):

*"…Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit expression to inspire people to start looking at the world from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the population at large think they are…*That being said, It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized."

and the Sources page (again, edited here for space):

Massey, Gerald* - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree*
Carpenter, Edward: Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning Book Tree, 1998 *
Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press
…

Allegro, John
- The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books*
…
Wheless, Joseph: Forgery in Christianity: A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion 1930
…
Flemming, Brian: The God Who Wasn’t There(Film) 2005
The Naked Truth (Film) IRES
…
Griffin, David Ray - 911 The Myth and the Reality
Ruppert, Michael -The Truth and Lies of 9-11
…
Dye, Thomas R. - The Irony of Democracy, Wadsworth Publishing
Greider, William
- Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, Simon & Schuster


This movie runs a little under 2 hours. There are images of war in the opening, and an excerpt from one of George Carlin’s skits so language is an issue.

Since there is no other forum here to discuss the points raised in this film (besides the Back Fence), I will allow discussion of the content and positions of this film to take place in this thread as it is an attempt by a popular media venue to influence the masses toward a particular way of thinking.

Angela Tate
CAF Moderator
Popular Media
 
Have no desire to see it, but I imagine it will be a fascinating artifact for acedemic study once the Age of Paranoia is over.
 
I apologize for not giving warning beforehand. I guess I was still alittle overwhelmed and a bit shocked by the film after having watched it. I forgot about the war scenes, because of the religion part that followed. Egad!

I think it’s important to be able to refute this sort of garbage. I haven’t studied any of the ancient religions and I wonder how much truth is in the first part of this film. The comparison of Jesus and the ancient Gods such as Horus, etc. The quotes by Justin Martyr.
Is anyone schooled in this area?
This horrible film could do alot of damage. A co-worker turned me on to it and said it shook his and his wife’s Faith.
Once again I apologize for not providing more information. Like I said it really kinda threw me back and I needed to hear opinions from others.
 
I’m only 20 minutes into it, but honestly, it’s a load of baloney.
If you google that Horus character nowhere will you find the statements made in this video. They inaccurately depict Krishna and the other gods too.

I’m forcing myself to get through the rest so I can find out the point of all this garbage and will write more later.

By the time the narrator came to the story of Jesus you can notice his voice changed to a bored tone, such sarcasm in the wording as if to imply the story of Jesus was old hat by then - which, of course is one of their points in the film.

The thing is, they took the basic elements of the Christian story and forced the other religions to fit into that premise as if they came first and Christianity just stole from that. Entirely not the case at all.

I don’t know about the astological stuff, with regard to the crucifixion of the sun, resurrection of the son after 3 days and the three kings being stars and such. I don’t know my astronomy, but if the mythology part could be so easily debunked I suspect the same will follow for astologists.

Honestly, if anyone studied mythology in high school and/or college they’d recognize right off the bat that this is a distorted propaganda piece of work.

These people take what they want to convey and find multiple ways to distort reality to fit their pieces. Still, I’ll sit through it later when I have more time.

That any Christian would have their faith shaken with this piece is frightening. It speaks poorly of those shaken. Obviously they don’t even know the basics. I would be very concerned for your co-worker and ask him flat out how he could possibly be shaken by this piece? Can’t he see in their source listing that their sources are definitely anti-Christian and biased?
 
People will often draw a line of similarity between Jesus and the Egyptian God Horus. I’ve done alot of reading on Egyptian mythology, and I can tell you I think for the most part it’s very inaccurate. I’ll try to explain it in brief here…

Horus is the son of the God of the underworld Osiris and the Goddess Isis. Shortly before Horus’s conception, Osiris and Isis’ brother Set (yes, Osiris and Isis were also siblings) became enraged with Osiris because his brother had slept with his sister/wife Nepthys (which resulted in the birth of the God Anubis). After tricking Osiris, Set murdered him and cut the body into seven pieces and scattered them across Egypt. Isis gathered the pieces of her husband’s body, and through an act of magic had sex with the corpse before it went to the underworld. The result of this union was Horus.

Horus and Isis were persued by Set’s followers when he was a child. There’s alot of Egyptian iconography of Isis and child together, which some compare to images of Mary and Jesus. I think this is errant, because the images are very different in style and mood. But anyways, Horus grows up and does battle with Set to avenge the murder of his father. In a battle scene that’s downright disturbing (Horus and Set sodomize each other in turns), he eventually kills Set and casts him into oblivion.

Sometimes Horus, Isis and Osiris are viewed as an Egyptian trinity, but again I think that’s a errored comparison. However, if you want to read it for yourself, it’s all in “The Book of the Dead”. I read the Budge translation and ost libraries have it. It’s kind of like the Kementic (ancient Egyptian) Bible in a loose sense.
 
People will often draw a line of similarity between Jesus and the Egyptian God Horus. I’ve done alot of reading on Egyptian mythology, and I can tell you I think for the most part it’s very inaccurate. I’ll try to explain it in brief here…

Horus is the son of the God of the underworld Osiris and the Goddess Isis. Shortly before Horus’s conception, Osiris and Isis’ brother Set (yes, Osiris and Isis were also siblings) became enraged with Osiris because his brother had slept with his sister/wife Nepthys (which resulted in the birth of the God Anubis). After tricking Osiris, Set murdered him and cut the body into seven pieces and scattered them across Egypt. Isis gathered the pieces of her husband’s body, and through an act of magic had sex with the corpse before it went to the underworld. The result of this union was Horus.

Horus and Isis were persued by Set’s followers when he was a child. There’s alot of Egyptian iconography of Isis and child together, which some compare to images of Mary and Jesus. I think this is errant, because the images are very different in style and mood. But anyways, Horus grows up and does battle with Set to avenge the murder of his father. In a battle scene that’s downright disturbing (Horus and Set sodomize each other in turns), he eventually kills Set and casts him into oblivion.

Sometimes Horus, Isis and Osiris are viewed as an Egyptian trinity, but again I think that’s a errored comparison. However, if you want to read it for yourself, it’s all in “The Book of the Dead”. I read the Budge translation and ost libraries have it. It’s kind of like the Kementic (ancient Egyptian) Bible in a loose sense.
Thanks. That’s pretty twisted mythology!
Have you watched the movie? If not, perhaps you could watch the first part (about a half hour) and see some of the other “similarities” they claim. also, the astrology part is bizarre. I would like to hear your reaction. But be warned, there are some war scenes in the beginning. Then it goes into part one, which is the religion part, with the Horus stuff, etc.
If not, I understand.
God bless!
 
Finished watching the show last night.
I found it a tedious and one sided conspiracy piece, of course.

Since Part I is such an obvious display of picking and choosing facts and presenting them in such a way as to distort truth everything which followed from that could not be taken seriously.

In part I they claim christianity is based on plagiarism of egyptology, yet they misrepresent egyptology in order to make their case. They probably assume no one is read up on egyptian mythology, but as I noted before, even the most basic high school and college courses do not state what these people state. It is so obvious they took christianity as the mold by which they’d present egyptology in order to make it appear as though christianity is a reinvention.

The astological presentation, however, was pretty and logical, but not knowing my astronomy I couldn’t say whether or not what they presented was accurate. Certainly we know historically that the stars were studied by the ‘wise’ and those who read them were regarded in high esteem. We know that all cultures looked to the patterns of the stars to guide them. We even know that the three wise men were following a star and that the egyptians and romans had visiers to consult with them based on what the stars revealed. So it is not a new concept that religion and cultural practices are closely tied to astrology. I would still like to hear from some folks here who know their astronomy. But again, since the part preceding the astrological argument was obviously manipulated this section automatically becomes suspect. It seems as though they were rejecting all forms of religion and leaning toward astrology.

Then we get to the 9-11 conspiracy… I don’t dispute the facts and quotes used but how they were presented is such an obvious attempt to make their own personal point it can’t be taken seriously. Cleverly edited for a propaganda piece. :yawn: 'nuf said.

And then part 3…governments are run by bankers and old money holders who use elected officials to do their bidding. Again, well presented and edited, but true as presented? No. Elements of truth are contained within, but it is not the whole truth.

Having seen “V for Vendetta” recently (4 times, it was that good), this piece appears to be attempting to rouse the masses much as V did in that movie.

I find it interesting that they choose to discredit formalized religions first and foremost. If there is no God, then men are the ultimate authorities and thus, these people’s view of the world should be considered truth, but then doesn’t that just replace one dictator with another? How is that better for society?

It reminds me of those people who build forts in the mountains, grow their own food, stock arms, grow their own food and refuse to pay taxes.

I wouldn’t recommend anyone spend two hours on this piece. Why did you bring it up, jam? Did you watch it all the way through? Did you think there was something in it that we here at CAF needed to know? If so, what was it and why is it worth our time to view it?
 
Finished watching the show last night.
I found it a tedious and one sided conspiracy piece, of course.

Since Part I is such an obvious display of picking and choosing facts and presenting them in such a way as to distort truth everything which followed from that could not be taken seriously.

In part I they claim christianity is based on plagiarism of egyptology, yet they misrepresent egyptology in order to make their case. They probably assume no one is read up on egyptian mythology, but as I noted before, even the most basic high school and college courses do not state what these people state. It is so obvious they took christianity as the mold by which they’d present egyptology in order to make it appear as though christianity is a reinvention.

The astological presentation, however, was pretty and logical, but not knowing my astronomy I couldn’t say whether or not what they presented was accurate. Certainly we know historically that the stars were studied by the ‘wise’ and those who read them were regarded in high esteem. We know that all cultures looked to the patterns of the stars to guide them. We even know that the three wise men were following a star and that the egyptians and romans had visiers to consult with them based on what the stars revealed. So it is not a new concept that religion and cultural practices are closely tied to astrology. I would still like to hear from some folks here who know their astronomy. But again, since the part preceding the astrological argument was obviously manipulated this section automatically becomes suspect. It seems as though they were rejecting all forms of religion and leaning toward astrology.

Then we get to the 9-11 conspiracy… I don’t dispute the facts and quotes used but how they were presented is such an obvious attempt to make their own personal point it can’t be taken seriously. Cleverly edited for a propaganda piece. :yawn: 'nuf said.

And then part 3…governments are run by bankers and old money holders who use elected officials to do their bidding. Again, well presented and edited, but true as presented? No. Elements of truth are contained within, but it is not the whole truth.

Having seen “V for Vendetta” recently (4 times, it was that good), this piece appears to be attempting to rouse the masses much as V did in that movie.

I find it interesting that they choose to discredit formalized religions first and foremost. If there is no God, then men are the ultimate authorities and thus, these people’s view of the world should be considered truth, but then doesn’t that just replace one dictator with another? How is that better for society?

It reminds me of those people who build forts in the mountains, grow their own food, stock arms, grow their own food and refuse to pay taxes.

I wouldn’t recommend anyone spend two hours on this piece. Why did you bring it up, jam? Did you watch it all the way through? Did you think there was something in it that we here at CAF needed to know? If so, what was it and why is it worth our time to view it?
Yeah, I watched it all the way through. I pretty much came to the same conclusions as you. I’m not recommending the movie. I only asked those that seemed to be learned on the subjects presented in the ancient religion part of it. In hind sight, just more anti-Christian ramblings by a anti-Christian producer. :mad:

Also, I’m not sure I like the tone of your question. I didn’t think there was something you “needed to know.” I wasn’t up to some sinister plot. I’m a Catholic Christian not a New Ager trying to promote something. I’m sorry if I offended you. I’ve never heard the cliams in the first part and I haven’t studied the Egyptian religions. I was hoping for people to shed some light and help to debunk some of these claims. this sort of film can damage people and we should be able to refute such claims as the ones presented in this film. Perhaps I should have posted in the Apologetics section. My fault, forgive me. Apparantly, I never should have inquired in the first place. :doh2:
But if I can’t turn to fellow Catholics to help me fight for truth who can I turn to?

I’m just gonna stop because I feel like I just keep sticking my foot in my mouth.
Perhaps the moderator should remove this thread. 🤷
 
Also, I’m not sure I like the tone of your question. I didn’t think there was something you “needed to know.” I wasn’t up to some sinister plot. I’m a Catholic Christian not a New Ager trying to promote something. I’m sorry if I offended you.
No offense was taken at all by me and I apologize if my questions offended you.

If you look at the opening post as an outsider, not the originator, there are two short questions, one statement and a link. Those who click on the link to find out more are immediately taken to this very anti-christian political conspiracy piece.

With that little bit of information leading into the link it just was not possible to know what your intent was in asking any Catholic or Christian here on the boards to spend 2 hours of their time viewing such a propaganda piece. There have been other members and visitors of these boards who come here for the sole purpose of attempting to lead the faithful astray. I didn’t want to jump to any conclusions about your intent so I asked followup questions.

By answering the questions you cleared up the matter - you wanted help in debunking what was presented in the film and you are right, this is an excellent place to get that help. Thank you for taking the time to do so and for calling the piece to our attention.
 
No offense was taken at all by me and I apologize if my questions offended you.

If you look at the opening post as an outsider, not the originator, there are two short questions, one statement and a link. Those who click on the link to find out more are immediately taken to this very anti-christian political conspiracy piece.

With that little bit of information leading into the link it just was not possible to know what your intent was in asking any Catholic or Christian here on the boards to spend 2 hours of their time viewing such a propaganda piece. There have been other members and visitors of these boards who come here for the sole purpose of attempting to lead the faithful astray. I didn’t want to jump to any conclusions about your intent so I asked followup questions.

By answering the questions you cleared up the matter - you wanted help in debunking what was presented in the film and you are right, this is an excellent place to get that help. Thank you for taking the time to do so and for calling the piece to our attention.
Thanks!
yeah, I approached the topic poorly. And again I apologize. I think I posted right after watching it and was still alittle dumbfounded. :confused:
God bless!

p.s. Sorry for getting you to sit through 2 hours of that garabage if you did. :o
 
Thanks!
yeah, I approached the topic poorly. And again I apologize. I think I posted right after watching it and was still alittle dumbfounded. :confused:
God bless!

p.s. Sorry for getting you to sit through 2 hours of that garabage if you did. :o
I understand the dumbfounded reaction. It does kind of leave you speechless. :cool:

The two hours wasn’t a total waste. I did find the astrological stuff intriguing. The 9-11 stuff concerned me in that I actually know several people who would agree with everything they presented, and that’s scary. As for the last part it was troubling because these same people I know would respond the same way and they frustrate me too. It still leaves me to wonder what it is these people who hold to these theories really want the masses to do. They don’t appear to have a solution but you’re right, the way they package their viewpoint can sway a lot of people.
 
I skimmed through the movie for a few minutes. Wow. I can’t believe anyone would see this as anything but a poorly researched propaganda piece. The stuff on religion sounds interesting only because very few of us know anything about the ancient figures it cites. If we did, we would probably be just as unimpressed with Part 1 as we are with the 9-11 stuff. Watch the 9-11 part and, even if you know nothing of the events of that day, you can poke holes in virtually every argument the film maker makes. Its really quite sad that anyone could be taken in by this kind of stuff. Though as a fan of Jay Leno’s of “Jay Walking” segments, I can see that some folks don’t have much practical education to fall back on these days. 😦
 
Learn about the video from a nephew.

Basically, it’s anti-religion and especially anti-Christian. They were wrong on the formation of Christianity, so why bother to finish the rest of the video.

It’s just a bunch of garbage that can only seduce the ignorant populace.
 
I appreciate that lots of the people who post here don’t feel that Zeitgeist is worth their time. This is probably true.
However, at least two students in my Comparative Religions class in a secular university have had their faith shaken by the film, so I think that many of us will know people who are affected by the film.
We need to be able to refute the main points.
Several bits have been handled on this site already, but I’d like to add a couple to them.
I hope this will help you answer the questions of people you know and who might ask…

The thesis of the religion section of the film appears (to me) to be as follows:

Christians claim that Jesus was born on December 25, 4 BC. He died on Good Friday of AD 30 and rose 3 days later on Easter Sunday.

These details reflect a long history of sun gods born on December 25, dying and rising again after 3 days.

The reason for these details is the winter solstice.
-the sun rises less each day through the fall, stops at its nadir for three days (December 22, 23, 24) and rises higher each day through the winter & spring.
This is the dying – death for three days – and resurrection of the sun.
Christians wait until Easter to celebrate this resurrection because Easter is close to the Vernal Equinox when the light begins to win out over the darkness.

For some reason the filmmaker thinks that Jesus is nevertheless especially significant because he ushers in the Astrological Age of Pisces, just as Moses had ushered in the Åstrological Age of Aries. I’m not sure why s/he cares, given that Jesus is portrayed as a myth anyways.

There are, as I see it, two main problems with this argument.
  1. Jesus was not born on the 25th of December, and the Bible makes no such claim, anywhere.
    Christians (no earlier than the 4th century, when Christianity became the dominant religion in the Roman empire) began celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25 precisely because the pagans around them were celebrating the rebirth of the sun god.
    Christians decided to hold an alternative celebration in competition with the pagan celebration.
  2. Easter doesn’t happen at the vernal equinox.
Detail problems:
  1. The three kings comes from a Christmas carol – they are nowhere mentioned in the Bible. The Bible talks about an indeterminate number of sages from the east.
  2. Astrology doesn’t own the number 12, so thinking that the 12 disciples or the 12 tribes of Israel refers to the 12 constellations is arrogant nonsense.
A second major issue is his allegation that there are no reliable historical accounts for the existence of Jesus. Speaking as a professional historian, there is as much reliable historical evidence for the existence of Jesus as there is for the existence of the Greek poet Homer. Just because Matthew, Mark, Luke and John believed that Jesus was the Messiah doesn’t discredit them as historical witnesses.
The way Zeitgeist dismisses Josephus as a forgery is highly problematic. Josephus is controversial, but the controversy is largely circular in its reasoning. The reasoning goes: Josephus couldn’t have said the things he did about Jesus because no Jew would say those things about Jesus. Therefore it must be a later insert by a Christian.
But had Josephus not mentioned Jesus it would be evidence that Jesus did not exist.
You can’t win that argument because it’s stacked, and bad logic.
Most reputable historians believe that the Josephus account is authentic.
Most reputable historians believe that the accounts found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John reflect the accounts of witnesses and oral/MS tradition recorded within a century of Jesus’ life.

Hope this helps…

NL
 
I appreciate that lots of the people who post here don’t feel that Zeitgeist is worth their time.
Thanks for breaking it down. Your analysis shows that the arguments are easily countered merely by showing them to be false logic. I didn’t take the time to think about it myself because when I skimmed forward and found the 9-11 stuff I basically rolled my eyes and the whole movie lost all credibility right there. Hopefully this is the reaction any educated person would have, but there are a lot of people in colleges these days who wouldn’t have passed a GED test 20 years ago.
 
I stumbled upon this forum while doing some research for the film Zeitgeist. I am currently making a new film entitled Zeitgeist: Refuting the Spirit of the Age which should be out this December.

Although I am not a Catholic, I hope many of you will find this film helpful in witnessing to the lost. The transcript can be viewed at my website. Look for the movie soon!

beitshalomministries.org/blog/?page_id=197
 
Hi folks. I don’t have a lot of time right now with 4 kids in the house all getting a little cabin fever with a winter storm on the way. I just want to pop in for a moment and come back later. Hopefully some of you will have something I can tell my 18 year old son.

You see, about an hour ago, he came to me saying 'Mom, my friend Matt says you and dad have got to see this. I just started watching it, and I want to know what you think."
“What is it?” I asked, coming into the living room. I was just about to start building a gingerbread house with my 7 & 15 year old sons, and my 17 month old daughter.
“Come sit here.” he said, giving me the computer chair and pulling up an ottoman for himself to sit on.

For the next 30 minutes we had the three youngest kids play in one room so Ky and I could watch Zeitgeist. I’m sickened~ I know atheist propaganda when I see it. It’s simply sickening. My heart feels like its about to explode because THIS could be the defining moment in my son’s faith. THIS could be the very thing that unless it is all properly handled and refuted, can push him away from the Catholic truth we have raised him in all these years, or toward a belief in science and self.

So *please please *help me out if you can. I wasn’t prepared for this at all. I had never even heard of Zeitgeist before today.
 
Hi Jennifer,
Did you see my post on Zeitgeist earlier?
If not, do check it out.
I’d be happy to follow up with your son if he/you wants to have a longer more detailed conversation.
I’m a University chaplain, so I’m used to these conversations.

NL
 
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