Zero tolerance for actively gay priests?

[Malcolm]

Careful! If you call for vengeance, where are you going to hide?
I would hope if a priest is openly celebrating his sexual sins or any sin with no sign of repentance that the priest would be disciplined.
Being gay isn’t the problem. Acting out publicly with no remorse is a problem.

“disciplined” and then reassigned to another parish , yes that’s what they did with numerous homosexual predators so they probably did even less than that about priests having sex with men not boys.

I don’t think sexually disordered men should be counseling others , or is homosexuality really now just a preference like vanilla over chocolate ice cream ?

 

[PatK63]

Malcolm,
There were many errors made in the past.
The church is trying to correct those errors.

The discussion started talking about homosexual behavior not predatory acts against children. When I said discipline, I mean discipline that fits the sin. The church has learned that predators cannot be cured. In the past the church believed and the medical community that predators could be cured.
I am not afraid to discuss any issue but would like clarity and discuss one issue at a time.

 

[Malcolm]

sorry PatK63 , I guess I am bringing up different but related topics - at least they are related in my mind.

I am concerned the church is backing away from its own teaching about homosexuality and this shows up in a variety of ways including those mentioned and more I’m sure . I’m afraid the real reason the church doesn’t act effectively against homosexuality in their ranks is because they simply don’t want to - they think homosexuality is actually OK.

 

[PatK63]

Okay, a difficulty question. First let me assure you I understand the frustration.

This is all my opinion based on my understand of the Catholic Faith.

First we have to separate homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies. Homosexual acts are always wrong and the church teaches that. Homosexual tendencies or orientation is not wrong. The term now used is same sex attraction SSA. There is no agreement on what causes SSA. Just like some people have s tendency to get angry, some people have SSA.

The church’s mission Is to teach the gospel and welcome sinners. Calling sinners to repentance for sure.

We all sin and we have to be careful that we don’t ignore our own sins and call others to perfection.

The church is trying to balance all these issues.

To be sure a priest or Bishop here or there gets too lax confronting sin allowing mercy to take control. That is not the church. Eventually issues like SSA may need an Ecumenical Council to get a uniform teaching.

Keep the faith, the Holy Spirit is in charge.
But often the hearts of the faithful have to be prepared and that takes time.

 

[TMC]

I don’t think sexually disordered men should be counseling others , or is homosexuality really now just a preference like vanilla over chocolate ice cream ?

I don’t see homosexuality as a choice or preference. I also don’t think the Church should treat the breaking of vows differently for homosexuals and heterosexuals. I know that some do, but I don’t - whether the Church does or not seems to me a matter of some debate.

I am concerned the church is backing away from its own teaching about homosexuality and this shows up in a variety of ways including those mentioned and more I’m sure . I’m afraid the real reason the church doesn’t act effectively against homosexuality in their ranks is because they simply don’t want to - they think homosexuality is actually OK.

To the extent that you are suggesting this is a new phenomena - I don’t think that is the case. If you think gay clergy is a new thing, why do you think that?

 

[Malcolm]

If you think gay clergy is a new thing, why do you think that?

Possibly because in my lifetime the public perception of homosexuality has changed from being an actual crime to being celebrated as fully equal. In my opinion this massive societal change was clearly orchestrated as a top down “social engineering” project. I’ve also witnessed the same thing happen with abortion and for the same reason .

I’m sure there always were gays everywhere but I think there is just MUCH more of it now than fifty years ago - just like there were probably always abortions too but nothing like the numbers now.

Such things happen I guess but I sure don’t want my church out in front cheer leading it.

 

[TMC]

Possibly because in my lifetime the public perception of homosexuality has changed from being an actual crime to being celebrated as fully equal. In my opinion this massive societal change was clearly orchestrated as a top down “social engineering” project. I’ve also witnessed the same thing happen with abortion and for the same reason .

I’m sure there always were gays everywhere but I think there is just MUCH more of it now than fifty years ago - just like there were probably always abortions too but nothing like the numbers now.

Such things happen I guess but I sure don’t want my church out in front cheer leading it.

I’m not sure its a “celebration,” and a cursory review of this forum and others shows homosexuals are still not fully accepted, although they are certainly more accepted than there were 50 years ago. I don’t agree that there are more homosexuals now - you just notice them more because they don’t feel as much need to hide. Similarly, I think the clergy have always had a disproportionately large number of homosexuals - or at least it has for centuries. They are a bit more noticeable now.

Obviously we disagree on some of that. But do you agree that heterosexuals who violate their vows should also be addressed? Is there behavior more acceptable? I think it is a problem with both heterosexual and homosexual priests.

 

[Mtatum1958]

Wouldn’t work well in the confessional .

 

[Malcolm]

Obviously we disagree on some of that. But do you agree that heterosexuals who violate their vows should also be addressed? Is there behavior more acceptable? I think it is a problem with both heterosexual and homosexual priests.

That’s like asking whether breaking priestly vows by having sex with animals or children is any different than breaking priestly vows by having heterosexual sex with an adult woman. Not to the same disgusting degree but homosexual acts are definitely worse , without question.

Normalizing homosexuality is wrong therefore talking about it as if it were just a difference and not a disorder is also wrong. I wish more people (especially catholics) would stand up and say so .

 

[TMC]

That’s like asking whether breaking priestly vows by having sex with animals or children is any different than breaking priestly vows by having heterosexual sex with an adult woman. Not to the same disgusting degree but homosexual acts are definitely worse , without question.

Normalizing homosexuality is wrong therefore talking about it as if it were just a difference and not a disorder is also wrong. I wish more people (especially catholics) would stand up and say so .

Well, we disagree there.

So what do you think about the heterosexual priests that violate their vows? That seems to be equally prevalent, but it doesn’t seem to trouble you. Should they not also be addressed?

 

[Irishmom2]

So no one is going to do anything. Everyone is leaving it be. Everyone is waiting for someone else to do something.

This is why there has been such abuse and scandal in the Church. People knew and did nothing. People knew and covered it up.

Wouldn’t you feel better knowing that at least you tried to do something? Write the bishop about what you have been been told by the staff. If he does nothing, it is on him. He will answer for it, not you.

 

[Malcolm]

So what do you think about the heterosexual priests that violate their vows? That seems to be equally prevalent, but it doesn’t seem to trouble you. Should they not also be addressed?

Men who break their vow of celibacy with adult women are just weak but those who break their vow of celibacy with other men or animals are in some way sick , psychologically ill.

We can disagree on that , it’s ok.

But just out of interest TMC , can you tell me whether you think homosexuality is an actual disorder or is it just a different preference like someone preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream ?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Men who break their vow of celibacy with adult women are just weak but those who break their vow of celibacy with other men or animals are in some way sick , psychologically ill.

I personally think breaking a vow to God is breaking a vow to God, and you don’t get the lower penalty just because you broke it with an adult woman.

But if we agree with your reasoning, and say the priest who breaks his vow with a man is “sick, psychologically ill” then he is not making a totally free-will choice to do what he did, because he is ill. And therefore, he needs more help and understanding and kindness and treatment, whereas the priest who is not ill but merely a weakling needs the zero-tolerance policy to make him shape up, as he has no illness to blame.

 

[JMMJ]

But just out of interest TMC , can you tell me whether you think homosexuality is an actual disorder or is it just a different preference like someone preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream ?

Since you have referred to this a few times already, I am going to weigh in.

Most people don’t consider homosexuality a disorder or a preference. Just sayin’.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Most normal people don’t consider homosexuality a disorder or a preference. Just sayin’.

We’re gonna be fighting this battle for about the next 50 years minimum, even if science comes up with proof that it’s neither a disorder nor a preference.

 

[Malcolm]

the whole notion of “normal” has been degraded drastically and in just my lifetime . that’s the problem. adjusting catholic morality to the new normal is simply an abdication of responsibility in my opinion.

imagine a spectrum of human sexuality with committed monogamous heterosexual catholic marriage (open to life) on the extreme right end of the scale - now put the most heinous act of sexual depravity that you can imagine on the extreme left end of the spectrum.

can you EVER put homosexual sex right on top of the one on the far right ? Some people imagine they can but they are deluded if not actually depraved themselves as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Malcolm]

We’re gonna be fighting this battle for about the next 50 years minimum, even if science comes up with proof that it’s neither a disorder nor a preference.

you are going to fight a battle to normalize homosexuality ? because you think that’s a good thing ?

 

[TMC]

But just out of interest TMC , can you tell me whether you think homosexuality is an actual disorder or is it just a different preference like someone preferring vanilla over chocolate ice cream ?

It is neither a disorder nor a choice.

 

[Irishmom2]

Tis_Bearself:

We’re gonna be fighting this battle for about the next 50 years minimum, even if science comes up with proof that it’s neither a disorder nor a preference.

you are going to fight a battle to normalize homosexuality ? because you think that’s a good thing ?

I don’t think that is what she said.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Doesn’t matter what he thinks I said. He’s going to be fighting the battle to keep calling it a sick psychological disorder for decades after medical science has left that view in the dust.
Makes about as much sense to me as continuing to argue the earth is flat.