Zombie Apocalypse Suicide Question

[PolarGuy]

I always smile when people tell me I don’t understand. I usually respond the same way: by saying " maybe I understand it better than you do."

It’s meaningless, insensitive, and displays no understanding of the barbarity of evil to debate, from behind the comfort of our computers, the “objective morality”’ of someone offered the choice between suicide and raping one’s own daughter followed by being murdered anyway.

Me? I think God has infinite love and understanding for anyone placed in that situation, regardless of which “choice” they choose.

 

[Havard]

Food for thought from the Catechism:

2282 Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

Also:

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[thistle]

Food for thought from the Catechism:

2282 Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

Also:

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

I totally agree. The sin may not be a mortal one due to diminished responsibility. That’s what I’ve been saying to everyone here.
However, the act is still a suicide. Some people in this thread are trying to twist things to make it seem as if reduced culpability means the act is not suicide.

 

[thistle]

I always smile when people tell me I don’t understand. I usually respond the same way: by saying " maybe I understand it better than you do."

It’s meaningless, insensitive, and displays no understanding of the barbarity of evil to debate, from behind the comfort of our computers, the “objective morality”’ of someone offered the choice between suicide and raping one’s own daughter followed by being murdered anyway.

Me? I think God has infinite love and understanding for anyone placed in that situation, regardless of which “choice” they choose.

Why are you so defensive.

You seem to imply that reduced responsibility means the act is not a suicide. That is wrong. It remains a suicide even if reduced culpability means it is not a mortal sin.
When people ask a question I cannot lie as to what the Church teaches.

 

[Havard]

I totally agree. The sin may not be a mortal one due to diminished responsibility. That’s what I’ve been saying to everyone here.
However, the act is still a suicide. Some people in this thread are trying to twist things to make it seem as if reduced culpability means the act is not suicide.

I agree, and it sounds like people just don’t like the word. It means what it means, and it is in no way a judgment about the destination of the soul of the deceased. My uncle committed suicide. So did a childhood friend. I pray for their souls, and I do not despair.

 

[PolarGuy]

thistle, all you’re doing is just re-stating what you said earlier.

It’s easy to say, “I cannot lie!” Truth is easy. Empathy’s clearly harder for some.

Some other items:

1. I’m defensive? No, I’m offended, because of the harshness of what’s being posted here. I wasn’t the one saying, “tut tut, you don’t understand.”
2. Your saying, “the possibility of reduced culpability for the sin of grave matter (which suicide is) would depend on the mental state of the person committing the act” is clinical, cold, and 180 degrees removed from saying, “someone who choses suicide over raping their daughter under threat of death is under so much duress that they can’t realistically be held responsible for choosing death.” Instead, you’re just repeating, “suicide is suicide, and it’s grave matter!”, which makes it pretty close to a mortal sin as it is. That attitude - as if wanting to force others to agree with you - is counterproductive, lacking in compassion, and overly harsh.

Now, if you want to have a bona fide conversation, and impress lurkers with your empathy, you could write this:

“Someone who choses suicide over raping their daughter under threat of death is under so much duress that they can’t realistically be held responsible for choosing death.”

Care to?

 

[underacloud]

Why so hard on thistle?

He is more than merely “technically” correct here.

While suicide is unfortunate and often (perhaps usually) involves diminished capacity, it is still an intrinsically evil act in itself and cannot be condoned as a morally acceptable choice on a Catholic moral theology forum.

thistle was responding to a post that (other than redefining the term itself) condoned suicide as a legitimate moral choice. It is not, ever.

It is understandable in some extreme situations, but still not a legitimate moral choice.

 

[on_the_hill]

I always smile when people tell me I don’t understand. I usually respond the same way: by saying " maybe I understand it better than you do."

I had a friend who was a PhD economist. He said economists can always win debates because all they have to do was conclude with, “If you don’t agree with me it’s because you don’t understand!”

 

[Ignatius]

Forgive me if I posted this in the wrong thread topic thingy. As you can probably tell by my number of posts, I’m new.

My question is if (obviously this will never happen) in a zombie apocalypse, like 30 zombies are coming to your house, and you had a gun with one bullet, would it still be a sin if you kill yourself with the gun.
I had this stray thought and I just thought I’d ask on here.

Yes, it would still be a Mortal sin.

 

[on_the_hill]

I’d take the sin and work out the consequences later

 

[PPeterson]

If there were 30 you’d probably be fine just shooting one because there’d be enough left to eat you entirely, leaving no concerns about re animation.

 

[underacloud]

I’d take the sin and work out the consequences later

If that sin is grave matter - which suicide is - and is committed with knowledge and full consent, then the consequence is as bad as it gets - dying in a state of mortal sin. You will not face the consequence later - you will face it almost immediately (such is the nature of suicide) and it will be very bad indeed - it will be hell.

Now duress can diminish culpability, and there is always the possibility of contrition even in the moment immediately before death, but we can never say that suicide is a good or moral choice.

 

[on_the_hill]

How would the consequences of suicide be worse than the consequences of being eternally undead as a murderous cannibalistic zombie?

 

[underacloud]

How would the consequences of suicide be worse than the consequences of being eternally undead as a murderous cannibalistic zombie?

Hell is certainly eternal.

Being a zombie is not. You could be killed or starve through lack of humans to eat.

And of course, there is the theory that a zombie is only the body of a person, while their soul is elsewhere.

And then there’s the second coming of Christ, after which there will surely be no more zombies.

 

[on_the_hill]

But…in my post-apocalyptic world, the souls of the zombies are already in Hell, and their bodies are the temporal manifestation of what they’re suffering there. Also, at the moment of death you slip into a state of stasis, and have a split second to repent. So I’ll repent during that moment and all will be well.

 

[weller2]

[Suicide] is understandable in some extreme situations, but still not a legitimate moral choice.

And providing “entertainment” to one’s ISIS captors is a legitimate moral choice?

 

[underacloud]

And providing “entertainment” to one’s ISIS captors is a legitimate moral choice?

There is a fate worse than being an ISIS captive…it is known as hell.

 

[underacloud]

But…in my post-apocalyptic world, the souls of the zombies are already in Hell, and their bodies are the temporal manifestation of what they’re suffering there. Also, at the moment of death you slip into a state of stasis, and have a split second to repent. So I’ll repent during that moment and all will be well.

With regard to your post-apocalyptoc world, you seem to have it sorted. But with regard to Catholic morality…

Unfortunately you’re also committing the sin of presumption - itself a serious sin - so your plan is not foolproof.

And you don’t know that you can properly repent in that final moment, since if you are truly sorry for the sin you plan on committing, you won’t commit it in the first place - or to flip that around - if you go ahead and commit it, how can you then be sorry for it? Other than merely being sorry because you are now fearful of hell, but the Church does not consider that sufficient to acheive forgiveness apart from sacramental confession.

 

[weller2]

There is a fate worse than being an ISIS captive…it is known as hell.

Except that ISIS captive will be forced to commit immoral acts and will die without Confession, which, by your own logic, destines her to hell as well.

 

[underacloud]

Except that ISIS captive will be forced to commit immoral acts and will die without Confession, which, by your own logic, destines her to hell as well.

Being raped, or whatever else you are referring to, is no sin at all on the part of the victim.